Sweet Spot Training, a guide to building a powerful aerobic engine - Page 5
Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ... 345
Results 101 to 124 of 124
  1. #101
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    3,095
    Quote Originally Posted by kreuzberg
    Is doing 3x20 min at SST with five min rest between each effort the same as doing a 60-min effort at the same intensity?
    I know you are supposed to do 2x20s at FTP, and SST should be at durations much longer, but surely putting a five min break between the intervals doesn't negate the workout at all...or does it?
    Anyone have any insight?
    now you're playing around at the margins. I don't need any research or studies to tell me this -- if you do SST for three by twenty, with five minutes rest, you're going to get a benefit much greater than sitting on the couch. twenty minutes is a great length of time to stress your aerobic system some.
    If you need a rest after twenty minutes, I probably wouldn't call it SST, anyway. it's a little more than that.
    the thing to remember is specificity. if you want to be able to do that intensity for sixty minutes, without a rest, then sixty minutes without a rest is what you should do.
    I'm not ridiculing you, but this question shows the dangers of the little bit of knowledge that we have. never is twenty minutes of anything going to be worthless; the only question is whether it's going to push you further along then what you've been doing, which requires increases in intensity and/or duration of effort over time. Maybe some coaches and physiologists have figured out something more exacting than that, but they disagree so much that amateur posers like us shouldn't trouble our little heads with it. the advantages likely fall into the margin for error.

    Ride like you mean it. Mix up your efforts to get a nice menu of abilities. You'll be great.

  2. #102

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    178
    i'm interested to use this training method, how many session will I get the result ? for how long?

  3. #103
    Impulse Athletic Coaching
    Reputation: iliveonnitro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    5,576
    Bump for all the newbies and new members.

  4. #104
    CHT
    CHT is offline
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: CHT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    394
    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonnitro
    Bump for all the newbies and new members.
    Thanks for the bump....I'm neither a newbie or new member but never saw this thread before. It's very timely as I'm putting together my winter training program (Cat 4 racer) and this type of approach would seem to address some of my weaknesses. I'm thinking doing SST coupled with working on sprint training closer to racing season (mid March) is the right approach.

    A few questions....

    1. Basic question...but can you or anyone else speak to whether SST training has been effective. Has the theory actually translated into effective results on the road/race course.

    2. For now, I'm still training by HR. Can someone provide some guidance how L1 - L6 translate as a percentage of LTHR based on the 60 minute test noted in the first post. I understand that SST is in the 89-100% rance (lower L3 - upper L4).

    3. I was planning on 2 or 3 x 20 or longer intervals. As far as riding the edge between not enough and too much for recovery (recognizing that each person is different), is it better to try and extend out the duration of these intervals, or the number of intervals?
    It's better to burn out, then to fade away....

  5. #105
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Frith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    681
    Thanks for the bump +1.
    I also don't know how I missed this thread the first few times around.

    My question is about which books employ this method as part of their winter training that I could follow.
    Does the time crunched cyclist use SST? If not are there any that do?

  6. #106
    Impulse Athletic Coaching
    Reputation: iliveonnitro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    5,576
    Quote Originally Posted by CHT
    Thanks for the bump....I'm neither a newbie or new member but never saw this thread before. It's very timely as I'm putting together my winter training program (Cat 4 racer) and this type of approach would seem to address some of my weaknesses. I'm thinking doing SST coupled with working on sprint training closer to racing season (mid March) is the right approach.

    A few questions....

    1. Basic question...but can you or anyone else speak to whether SST training has been effective. Has the theory actually translated into effective results on the road/race course.

    2. For now, I'm still training by HR. Can someone provide some guidance how L1 - L6 translate as a percentage of LTHR based on the 60 minute test noted in the first post. I understand that SST is in the 89-100% rance (lower L3 - upper L4).

    3. I was planning on 2 or 3 x 20 or longer intervals. As far as riding the edge between not enough and too much for recovery (recognizing that each person is different), is it better to try and extend out the duration of these intervals, or the number of intervals?
    1. I used it every year and I went from cat5 to cat2 in 3 seasons

    2. http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articl...ew-coggan.aspx

    3. Depends on the intensity. If it's SST, why are you only doing 20 minutes at a time instead of continuously the whole ride?

  7. #107
    CHT
    CHT is offline
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: CHT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    394
    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonnitro
    1. I used it every year and I went from cat5 to cat2 in 3 seasons

    2. http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articl...ew-coggan.aspx

    3. Depends on the intensity. If it's SST, why are you only doing 20 minutes at a time instead of continuously the whole ride?
    Thanks! The link is very helpful. As for duration, without fully understanding SST (and without a power meter) it was difficult to envision the perceived effort or HR which correlates to SST. I now realize that, for the most part, SST is about sustaining longer efforts at an intensity which is slightly less than what I was thinking. Going back again to the other posts confirmed this further.
    It's better to burn out, then to fade away....

  8. #108
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    1
    Thanks for share

  9. #109
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    154
    I see improvements using the long slow distance approach. I think anything else is forcing adaptations of a different system. A quote from Thomas Chapple (Making gains in aerobic capacity takes years, while the anaerobic systems can be trained to efficiency in ~9 weeks.)


    Building on his statement, I started on trainer this winter at 1:30 minutes at 15.8mph avg @145bpm(warm up, and drills for 40 minutes, 2 x20x5s) and have built up to 2:30 minutes at 17.6 mph avg @145 (warm up and drills for 40 minutes, 2x50x5s) in the course of 7 weeks, at 3 rides a week.

    Now, for the counterpoint - this was my first year of racing. My first effort took me to see Off-the-back-istan, as well as its sister state - Almostlapped-istan. Fast forward to riding and racing as hard and fast as possible, and I could finally hang with the pack and actually hit the podiums once or twice in Cat-4. All of this through focusing on upper threshold work.

    You can get fast quickly, and thats it. Or you can be that guy next to you in the group ride thats riding the same pace as you at 30-40 heartbeats less.
    Last edited by alexp247365; 11-17-2010 at 01:27 PM.

  10. #110
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    16
    This needs to be bumped again. Any one using this method right now? How is it working for you? Also, I did an hour and a half on the trainer last night. I figured my SST, using HR was around 161. This is high z2 and low z3. My avg hr ended up being 158, but I watched my hr for nearly 1.5hours, it was really 160 almost the whole time.

    As I understand it, it is best to be in that range for an AVG, right?

  11. #111
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    212
    You cannot use HR for SST training...

    Using myself as an example I have a FTP in the mid 260s and a LTHR of 185. Depending on the ride (cold, indoors, fatigued, etc) my HR while riding in the SST zone can vary between 140bpm and 185bpm. My HR never cordinates with a power zone. If I did try to use HR for SST chances are pretty good that efforts would be too light on the power side for the majority of rides due o the variances I gave above and cardiac drift during the workout.

    One could use PE for SST training but even then you are just guessing.

  12. #112
    CHT
    CHT is offline
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: CHT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    394
    Quote Originally Posted by changes2008
    This needs to be bumped again. Any one using this method right now? How is it working for you? Also, I did an hour and a half on the trainer last night. I figured my SST, using HR was around 161. This is high z2 and low z3. My avg hr ended up being 158, but I watched my hr for nearly 1.5hours, it was really 160 almost the whole time.

    As I understand it, it is best to be in that range for an AVG, right?
    I've been doing SST 2-3 times a week for 1+ hours on the trainer. When I'm not on the trainer I've been going for longer, slower efforts on the road (temp range has been 20-40 degrees lately). I'm not sure my "field test" was as accurate as it could be, because I find that sometimes the next day my legs are not as fresh as it seems they should be doing efforts in the SST zone. In any event, I'm actually having LT testing done in the next week or so and then I'll know how close I am.

    I try to ensure my time in SST after warmup is an average of what I'm shooting for. If my goal is LT or 97-99% of LT, then my avg will be in this range. The zone is broad, and I mixed it up by doing some efforts in the higher end and some in the lower end (as wll as in the middle). I also mix it up so that I may be at or slightly higher than LT for some period of time, but not the whole training session.

    So far I've seen some modest results on the road, but it's only been a few weeks. It does appear that aerobic fitness at LT or near LT has improved. Only time will tell but so far I'm encouraged. I also plan on phasing in interval work as I get closer to race season.
    It's better to burn out, then to fade away....

  13. #113
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    78
    I added SST as one of my primary workouts to my training for 1st time this year after learning of the concept while studying up on power meters after I aquired a power-tap in January. Much of it in this very thread. It really added a lot to my training using WKO program and getting TSS scores from my rides. 1. It was motivating to go out for fast 90 minute rides and seeing my average watts improve over time. 2. Was able to do more hard rides as SST doesn't wear me out too much, and could do 2-3 days in a row. 3. I only have 6-8-10 hrs of training time/wk and make good use of that time.
    I also did lots of 2x20s and 15 mile TT like loops that took around 40 minutes. I think it was succesful as I mostly do CX these days. Been a Cat 3 for 4 years and managed on 3 top 5s over that time. This year made 7 top 5s, 3 podiums with field sizes 2x as large compared to 3 years ago & scored enough upgrade points for Cat2 upgrade.
    Looking forward to moving forward onto 2nd year with the PM and having a years worth of data, to try and make further progress. It is a fairly simple concept which I followed with out a coach and mostly trained alone.

  14. #114
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by wfrogge
    You cannot use HR for SST training...

    Using myself as an example I have a FTP in the mid 260s and a LTHR of 185. Depending on the ride (cold, indoors, fatigued, etc) my HR while riding in the SST zone can vary between 140bpm and 185bpm. My HR never cordinates with a power zone. If I did try to use HR for SST chances are pretty good that efforts would be too light on the power side for the majority of rides due o the variances I gave above and cardiac drift during the workout.

    One could use PE for SST training but even then you are just guessing.
    Okay, that does make sense. Thanks for answering so quickly.

  15. #115
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    154
    Three weeks later, and my five mile split times are still getting better. My post above lists 17.8mph/5mi. I hit 19.0mph/5mi this week. This increase has been from riding at my upper zone 2 @148bpm at 45 minute intervals with 5 minutes rest. Not using the SST method (directly.., ) but posting to show that there are other methods as well.

    With core-stregth - my volume is 11-13 hours a week.

  16. #116
    CHT
    CHT is offline
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: CHT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    394
    If you can't or don't want to train w/power, then don't discard HR for SST. The variations noted above by the OP regarding HR relative to power seem pretty extreme compared to what I've experienced (that's not saying they are wrong). If you go back to the original post and do the recommended 1 hour test, you can set up your SST which should be 85-105% of your 1 hour avg. Again, I'm not saying it's as good as power (you can't hide from power), but after a week or so you get a feel for where your HR is and whether on a given workout it is or is not reflective of your effort. By no means perfect, but better than PE. Bottom line, if you aren't training with power you will still see results utilizing SST theory and HR as a measurement. Maybe not as precise and effective, but effective nonetheless.
    It's better to burn out, then to fade away....

  17. #117
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    3,494
    Quote Originally Posted by CHT
    If you can't or don't want to train w/power, then don't discard HR for SST. The variations noted above by the OP regarding HR relative to power seem pretty extreme compared to what I've experienced (that's not saying they are wrong). If you go back to the original post and do the recommended 1 hour test, you can set up your SST which should be 85-105% of your 1 hour avg. Again, I'm not saying it's as good as power (you can't hide from power), but after a week or so you get a feel for where your HR is and whether on a given workout it is or is not reflective of your effort. By no means perfect, but better than PE. Bottom line, if you aren't training with power you will still see results utilizing SST theory and HR as a measurement. Maybe not as precise and effective, but effective nonetheless.
    +1. I feel HR is fine for SST and threshold work given you do a good test that yields a reliable number. In addition: For SST with HR use 95-98% of your FTHR. If doing 2X20's start at 95% and end at 98%. For threshold work with HR use 95-105% FTHR.

    SST with power use 88-94% and 91-105% for threshold work. Training with power really shines (imo) doing threshold, VO2max and anaerobic capacity work.

    Forgive me if these nums have been quoted already. Did not read through the thread.

  18. #118
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    23
    First, thank you to everyone that posts on this site. I just started reading it and it has been a great help. I have been riding for a little over a year. Entered about 8 races last year and hope to do at least as many this year. My goal is to increase my fitness to allow me to place in the top three in at least two races. I go on group rides at least one time a week and hold my own.

    Ok, so I just did the hour ride on the trainer and came up with the following numbers:
    Time: 01:00:09
    Distance: 25.38 mi
    Avg HR: 159 bpm
    Max HR: 170 bpm

    What now? If I want to do 20-30 minute intervals do I do them at 95% of the 159 (151). I have been doing a lot of shorter intervals < 2 min and 8 - 10 min. Will the longer interval increase my aerobic fitness thus allowing me to ride hard longer? Just trying to understand how to maximize my training as life is extremely busy at this stage. Thank you for any insight.

  19. #119
    CHT
    CHT is offline
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: CHT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    394
    Quote Originally Posted by minnichs
    First, thank you to everyone that posts on this site. I just started reading it and it has been a great help. I have been riding for a little over a year. Entered about 8 races last year and hope to do at least as many this year. My goal is to increase my fitness to allow me to place in the top three in at least two races. I go on group rides at least one time a week and hold my own.

    Ok, so I just did the hour ride on the trainer and came up with the following numbers:
    Time: 01:00:09
    Distance: 25.38 mi
    Avg HR: 159 bpm
    Max HR: 170 bpm

    What now? If I want to do 20-30 minute intervals do I do them at 95% of the 159 (151). I have been doing a lot of shorter intervals < 2 min and 8 - 10 min. Will the longer interval increase my aerobic fitness thus allowing me to ride hard longer? Just trying to understand how to maximize my training as life is extremely busy at this stage. Thank you for any insight.
    Thought I would respond since there were no takers. My take after reading through the thread, doing the field test and experimenting with SST is that SST, unlike traditional short interval training, will enable you to increase aerobic fitness "without burning too many matches" (you can repeat several times a week). In particular, my understanding is that SST is optimal for improving aerobic fitness. I've been doing anywhere from an hour plus around or slightly above 85%, and shorter (15-25 minutes) at 90-105%. The theory being that in the 85-105% of your theortical LT (based on the above numbers), you get real aerobic results without burning too many matches. Just as with intervals though, your SST training should vary in length and intensity (85-105%). I also think there is a value to doing short intervals/anaerobic training as well depending on what you are looking to improve.
    It's better to burn out, then to fade away....

  20. #120
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by CHT
    Thought I would respond since there were no takers. My take after reading through the thread, doing the field test and experimenting with SST is that SST, unlike traditional short interval training, will enable you to increase aerobic fitness "without burning too many matches" (you can repeat several times a week). In particular, my understanding is that SST is optimal for improving aerobic fitness. I've been doing anywhere from an hour plus around or slightly above 85%, and shorter (15-25 minutes) at 90-105%. The theory being that in the 85-105% of your theortical LT (based on the above numbers), you get real aerobic results without burning too many matches. Just as with intervals though, your SST training should vary in length and intensity (85-105%). I also think there is a value to doing short intervals/anaerobic training as well depending on what you are looking to improve.
    Thanks CHT. Makes sens to me.

  21. #121
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    332
    A bump to learn who used this last pre-season and how it went. I'll have a 30 mile commute next fall and this seems a good way to productively use that ride. (30 miles each way)

  22. #122
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    3,494
    Quote Originally Posted by DesnaePhoto View Post
    A bump to learn who used this last pre-season and how it went. I'll have a 30 mile commute next fall and this seems a good way to productively use that ride. (30 miles each way)
    300 miles per week of SST would crush most people. The general idea behind SST is that if a person does not have much time/week to load the body and cause adaptation then SST is an efficient way to use what little time you have. It's also used as specific workouts in some training plans to help facilitate adaptation (in that plan) which has been my experience.

    This is not to say that you should never do an SST ride, but realistically, 3 hours of SST in one ride would be tough IMHO. Doing that 5 days in a row? I just think a varied level and amount of intensity would be better.

  23. #123
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    6
    Good information

  24. #124
    plx
    plx is offline
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    111
    so... did anybody get faster by doing this?

Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ... 345

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT ROADBIKEREVIEW

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2020 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.