• 08-27-2014
    MaxSE
    Campagnolo 10 speed drivetrain except for 2015 Shimano 105 HTII 11 speed chainset?
    Hi guys, new to the forum as a member. :)

    I prefer to use Campagnolo parts on my road bike for various reasons but especially the Ergopower levers.

    However, like many I am no fan of the newer Power Torque chainsets and the whole way the PT Campag BB's fit/work/dismantle etc.

    By comparison the Shimano HTII system (on my MTB) is a doddle and in my experience superbly designed.

    So, in short can I use the following together?:

    All 2014 10 speed Veloce (Ergopower levers, 11-25 cassette, rear mech, front mech) with KMC 10 speed chain.

    But with a 2015 (the brand new 11 speed 5800) Shimano 105 compact 50/34 front chainset?

    I realise the rear compatability is maybe more tricky but I'm only concerned with the front and this may be less fussy?

    Just not sure if the front chainring spacing is significantly different to Campag and if the 11t chainrings are really any different in width to 10 speed Campag?

    Thanks all.
  • 08-27-2014
    gfk_velo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MaxSE View Post
    Hi guys, new to the forum as a member. :)

    I prefer to use Campagnolo parts on my road bike for various reasons but especially the Ergopower levers.

    However, like many I am no fan of the newer Power Torque chainsets and the whole way the PT Campag BB's fit/work/dismantle etc.

    By comparison the Shimano HTII system (on my MTB) is a doddle and in my experience superbly designed.

    So, in short can I use the following together?:

    All 2014 10 speed Veloce (Ergopower levers, 11-25 cassette, rear mech, front mech) with KMC 10 speed chain.

    But with a 2015 (the brand new 11 speed 5800) Shimano 105 compact 50/34 front chainset?

    I realise the rear compatability is maybe more tricky but I'm only concerned with the front and this may be less fussy?

    Just not sure if the front chainring spacing is significantly different to Campag and if the 11t chainrings are really any different in width to 10 speed Campag?

    Thanks all.

    Welcome to the forum!

    It will "work" but it won't shift as reliably as an all-Campag system. The system is just that - ir's best to go all Campagnolo or all Shimano, including the chain - as all the parts are designed to work in unison.

    The KMC chain has been a part-cause of some issues with the Campag 11s chainrings in the past, , and as the spacing on the Shimano rings is similar to Campag 11, you may get a similar effect - or you may not. The problem with straying outside known and tested parameters is that sometimes you are OK and everything works acceptably, sometimes not - but if it's a *not* then you have no recourse.

    The Campag front derailleur can also have some issues with the KMC chain - we have a plastic chain guide plate on the inside surface of the outer link plate and this can be damaged by chains like the KMC whose link edges are not as heavily bevelled as Campagnolo's.

    In your case that guide will be working twice as hard anyway as part of it's function is to regulate the up-shift from small ring to big ... in effect in the over-shift phase of the FD movement, the chain guide "nudges" the chain back towards the big ring as the tail of the FD is lifting the last part of the chain onto the outer ring. Given that 11s rings are approx 0.45 mm closer together on an 11s chainset than a 10 but the gate of the FD is the same width, the various parts of the FD responsible for controlling the chain's motion will be having to work a lot harder.
    You may and may not get problems, as a result, with overshift in both directions.

    Power-Torque is much-maligned, often by people who have no *actual* experience of it - when we run training courses for the trade, you'd be amazed how many mechanics diss PT and you ask them - "so have you ever fitted or removed one?" about 90% answer "no". Once they have seen it done and done it themselves, the only objection they really have is that the drive side bearing needs a proper puller, and the LH crank needs the correct puller. It's so seldom (twice a year, tops?) that either of these jobs need to be done, that it's a non-argument really - use an LBS to do this work on the rare occasions it needs to be done.

    HT2 is a well-designed system, for sure - not without some problems but generally very robust. You could go Sora 10s HT2 and at least to some extent get around some potential shift issues, or look for a 2014 10s 105 chainset to the same end.

    The last point is around warranty - mixing and matching will cost you the Shimano and the Campag warranty - the only part of the system that will be in warranty will be the chain ...
  • 08-27-2014
    MaxSE
    Thanks Graeme, I really appreciate the comprehensive reply which gives much food for thought. As an aside I'm a bit old school and really like the good old square taper too, never had a single issue with it and an ancient Record unit is still going strong after serious use on my track bike, additionally I have just finally replaced the UN71 on my single speed MTB after years of sterling service, replaced with a NOS UN 72 of course!

    Just realised who you are regards UK Campagnolo servicing BTW. I'm in the trade too although in our particular niche sector I don't come across modern regular road bike components generally hence the question on here to those with practical experience of this. Since posting the OP I've also just discovered one of our distributors has NOS 2008 Centaur carbon 10 speed Ultra Torque compact chainsets still available for not a lot more trade than 2014 Veloce PT so that may be the best solution as UT certainly seems much less problematic than PT and a more user friendly elegant solution.

    So changing tack somewhat can you comment on the reliability and longevity of these earlier carbon chainsets?
  • 08-27-2014
    DrSmile
    It will work without issue. I've used KMC chains with Campy for a decade without issue also, shifts the same as a Campy chain. Never noticed any FD wear. I think the whole bevel thing is Campy hype.

    As for the esthetics and "RBR" correctness, no, it's not acceptable to run a non-Campy chainset. But no one will stop you while riding and yell at you for that. Hopefully.
  • 08-27-2014
    headloss
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gfk_velo View Post
    It will "work" but it won't shift as reliably as an all-Campag system. The system is just that - ir's best to go all Campagnolo or all Shimano, including the chain - as all the parts are designed to work in unison.

    Spoken like a true company-man! :P

    I have a very difficult time believing that a chain or crank not being matched will matter in real-world experience, especially for someone who is content to run Veloce.

    PT cranks use standard 6805-(25x37x7mm) cartridge bearings, no? Or is it standard on one side and the 6mm slim version on the other? I'm personally OK with putting a PT crank on a bike, so long as I have no aspirations of taking it off more than once a year for a deep cleaning. I do like the HT2 design though, even if it's not as clean, too bad the more recent HT2 cranks are so terribly ugly! If I was going to go HT2, I'd pick up a Sugino crank and not chance spontaneous combustion. If I was on a budget, I'd go PT-Athena.
  • 08-28-2014
    orange_julius
    You can still find NOS Ultra-Torque cranksets/chainsets on eBay ... and since you sound non-North American, there are many UK-based vendors selling them. That's what I would do if I were you.
  • 08-28-2014
    wim
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gfk_velo View Post
    Once they have seen it done and done it themselves, the only objection they really have is that the drive side bearing needs a proper puller, and the LH crank needs the correct puller. It's so seldom (twice a year, tops?) that either of these jobs need to be done, that it's a non-argument really - use an LBS to do this work on the rare occasions it needs to be done.

    Having done it several times now, I agree that the removal procedure is not a big deal. This especially in view of the fact that the Park Tool set you need to do a proper job can now be had for around $60.

    But what got PT the bad press was the fact that you need to add yet another set of tools to your tool collection to remove a left-hand crank. It's as if Campy designers forgot to even ask the question "how do we get this PT thing off?" Puzzling at best when looking at the simple removal procedures for cranks offered by others (and Campy itself with UT).

    Good thought though on the 14 mm Allen you need for PT work. Many home mechanics already have one of those for use when changing the oil in their car. :-)
  • 08-28-2014
    flatlander_48
    The 10sp Wippermann chain with the Connex link is also a good choice.
  • 08-28-2014
    Got Time
    Maybe buy a Ultra-Torque crankset? Older models are available from several UK vendors.
    Last I looked Merlin had a sale going: $166 for Centaur UT.
  • 08-28-2014
    headloss
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by orange_julius View Post
    You can still find NOS Ultra-Torque cranksets/chainsets on eBay ... and since you sound non-North American, there are many UK-based vendors selling them. That's what I would do if I were you.

    Easy to find standard 135 UT NOS... compact is a bit more of a challenge, although they do pop up.
  • 08-28-2014
    rufus
    Maybe think about Centaur brifters instead of Veloce as well. They're a bit of an ugrade I know they use ball bearings for one, but I think there's other metal pieces that are plastic in the Veloce.
  • 08-28-2014
    headloss
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Maybe think about Centaur brifters instead of Veloce as well. They're a bit of an ugrade I know they use ball bearings for one, but I think there's other metal pieces that are plastic in the Veloce.

    The powershift stuff is the same (for that matter, so was the ultrashift 10 speed and QS stuff), there's no difference between the Centaur and Veloce internals since I believe 2007 when Centaur adopted the escapement internals; it's just branding.

    *edit to add* and don't you ever call those lovely ERGOs "brifters" again... :nono:
  • 08-28-2014
    MaxSE
    Cheers guys, those suggesting going to NOS UT, please see my post above which must have been missed (#3)! :).

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MaxSE View Post


    ......I'm in the trade too although in our particular niche sector I don't come across modern regular road bike components generally hence the question on here to those with practical experience of this. Since posting the OP I've also just discovered one of our distributors has NOS 2008 Centaur carbon 10 speed Ultra Torque compact chainsets still available for not a lot more trade than 2014 Veloce PT so that may be the best solution as UT certainly seems much less problematic than PT and a more user friendly elegant solution.


    So changing tack somewhat can you comment on the reliability and longevity of these earlier carbon chainsets?


    I have a 2008 Carbon Centaur lined up.

    Re' shifters I'm also holding on for 2011 Veloce with the revised thumb levers and lighter action.
  • 08-28-2014
    rufus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by headloss View Post
    The powershift stuff is the same (for that matter, so was the ultrashift 10 speed and QS stuff), there's no difference between the Centaur and Veloce internals since I believe 2007 when Centaur adopted the escapement internals; it's just branding.

    *edit to add* and don't you ever call those lovely ERGOs "brifters" again... :nono:

    So why does Campy mention ball bearings in the Centaurs, but no mention of them for Veloce? I don't have the time to search for it now, but there was another thread somewhere on here where someone mentioned going with Centaur because of something about them that was better than Veloce.
  • 08-28-2014
    headloss
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    So why does Campy mention ball bearings in the Centaurs, but no mention of them for Veloce? I don't have the time to search for it now, but there was another thread somewhere on here where someone mentioned going with Centaur because of something about them that was better than Veloce.

    Some of the 2009 10 speed ultra-shifters had a bushing instead of a bearing... if that is what you are thinking of? I don't think it was a Veloce vs Centaur thing though, I believe it was a matter of when they were produced (early models bushing, later models bearing). I could be wrong though, maybe someone else will chime in.
  • 08-28-2014
    sgs0331
    Back to the the original post:

    I think your set up would work fine if you go with either an 11 speed chain or a campy 10 speed chain. I once tried to run a shimano 5600 10 speed chain on otherwise centaur ultrashift 10 speed drivetrain, and had poor rear shifting. Things would index fine, but the chain wouldn't engage when dropping to 13,12, or 11 cogs under load. I think this probably had to do with the shimano 10 speed chain being wider than the campy version.

    That being said, I don't like mixing the big 3's components for aesthetic reasons. If you don't want to get a veloce crank, why not go with an fsa gossamer or energy crank. They are no heavier than a 105 crankset, shift equally as nicely, and usually can be found at a good price on ebay or a google search.
  • 09-01-2014
    CheapSkate
    My 2p worth (which is just my opinion)

    My experience was KMC chains did not shift as well as OEM Campag chains on a 10s setup much like you propose. I tried twice on two different occasions and the shifting just wasn't there. Mostly rear shift problems. I didn't go into a lot of diagnostics so it may have been subjective. But now I only run OEM Campag chains.

    I do think PT is a pain, I hate it. It's much harder to get off than UT, you run the risk of scratching or otherwise damaging the cranks, and yet it doesn't bring the benefit of easily replaceable bearings, you need a puller to remove the crank and a (possibly different?) puller to remove the drive side bearing. Just my opinion.

    @OP I would be intrigued to hear about how this setup works out. I am running Campag square taper 10s 53/39 and would really like to go compact especially on my winter bike, but I don't want PT. Keep us posted!

    Thanks