Dura Ace 7800/7900 vs ultegra 6800 vs 105 r7000
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  1. #1
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    Dura Ace 7800/7900 vs ultegra 6800 vs 105 r7000

    Now I use Shimano Ultegra 6700. But it is already old and starts to break down (the left shifter has broken) and the rear derailleur does not work well (new cables). Therefore, I want to replace all components.
    I like most shimano 105 r7000, because it is the newest. But this is not an indicator of the quality of shifting.
    Which group is better? The best shifting? Thanks.

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    If you mean among the current generation of Shimaon groupsets (105 7000, Ultegra 8000, Dura-Ace 9100), I think the consensus is that shifting is nearly equal among all of them. The only real benefit of the higher end groups is weight savings, and perhaps some aesthetics (if those matter to you).

    For the money, it's hard to beat Shimano 105 7000.

    If you are considering all brands (i.e. SRAM, Campy, etc..) that is a different story, and there are a ton of variables. I know nothing about Campy, and very little about SRAM (it came on my first gravel bike, and after a month, I removed it and replaced it with Shimano road components).

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finx View Post
    If you mean among the current generation of Shimaon groupsets (105 7000, Ultegra 8000, Dura-Ace 9100), I think the consensus is that shifting is nearly equal among all of them. The only real benefit of the higher end groups is weight savings, and perhaps some aesthetics (if those matter to you).

    For the money, it's hard to beat Shimano 105 7000.
    ^^^This.^^^ Shimano 105 is the "work horse" groupset. There is really no reason to spring for Ultegra. While I don't have first hand experience with 7000/8000, I have bikes with 5800 and 6800. They both shift flawlessly and I cannot tell any difference in quality.

    Also keep in mind that the Dura-Ace groupsets use a Ti cassette for weight savings. It will wear out much faster than lower end cassettes.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finx View Post
    ......and very little about SRAM (it came on my first gravel bike, and after a month, I removed it and replaced it with Shimano road components).
    Just curious, why did you replace an almost new groupset? Which SRAM groupset was this?
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    I almost agree to shimano 105 r7000
    But I also found a set r8000 (only shifters and derailleurs). And it is cheaper than full groupset r7000. I will only have to change the chain and the cassette (instead of the chainrings I have a power meter, the brakes can be left from the old ultegra 6700).
    Does this make sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamfri View Post
    I almost agree to shimano 105 r7000
    But I also found a set r8000 (only shifters and derailleurs). And it is cheaper than full groupset r7000. I will only have to change the chain and the cassette (instead of the chainrings I have a power meter, the brakes can be left from the old ultegra 6700).
    Does this make sense?
    Not sure if the cable pull on the brakes is the same. It changed somewhere - either between 5600/6600 and 5700/6700 or between 5700/6700 and 5800/6800. There is a Shimano compatibility chart somewhere. I'll have to check on that.

    Edit: On the brakes, looks like you're OK, just not optimal:

    https://productinfo.shimano.com/#/co...453&acid=C-456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Not sure if the cable pull on the brakes is the same. It changed somewhere - either between 5600/6600 and 5700/6700 or between 5700/6700 and 5800/6800. There is a Shimano compatibility chart somewhere. I'll have to check on that.

    Edit: On the brakes, looks like you're OK, just not optimal:

    https://productinfo.shimano.com/#/co...453&acid=C-456
    Thanks!
    Cables change is not a problem. But will there be a profit from r8000? If it is not much better than the r7000 in terms of shifting, then I see no reason to buy the r8000 ... although there may be differences.

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    Be aware you will probably need a new rear hub or modification of the existing one when going from 6700 to any 11 speed.

    I've owned or tried about everything 10 and 11 speed shimano (non electric and caliper brakes only though) and the only difference in shifting I can detect between newer and higher end groups and lower or 10 speed is in the front. 11 speed front shifting has definitely improved upon 10. But I don't shift enough in the front or care about a split second enough to think it has any real impact for me. It's better, but it's not like I was dropping chains or getting a sore wrist from older 10 speed stuff so it's not the type of improvement I'd spend for unless I needed a new group anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Just curious, why did you replace an almost new groupset? Which SRAM groupset was this?
    It was a SRAM Force 1 that came on a new gravel bike.

    What didn't I like?

    I rode it for a month or two to give it a fair shake. Ultimately, I just didn't care for the shifting or brakes. I didn't like the feel of the levers/hoods. I didn't really gain anything from having 1X.

    I had most of the components I needed to convert it to ultegra Di2 with 11/34 and a compact chainset. It gave me a nearly identical top and bottom gear, without the disadvantages of 1X and the "cheesy" feel of the SRAM shifting.

    I'll probably put the new GRX 48/31cranks and FD on it when they show up at the LBS.
    Last edited by Finx; 07-10-2019 at 11:54 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Be aware you will probably need a new rear hub or modification of the existing one when going from 6700 to any 11 speed.
    That depends. Some bikes sold with 5700/6700 groupos already came stock with 11-speed compatible wheels. One easy way to tell is if you remove your 10-speed cassette and there is a spacer behind it, then it's 11-speed compatible, just remove the spacer, install your 11-speed cassette and you're all set. If there is no spacer, then you will need a hub modification or a new hub.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finx View Post
    It was a SRAM Force 1 that came on a new gravel bike.

    What didn't I like?

    I rode it for a month or two to give it a fair shake. Ultimately, I just didn't care for the shifting or brakes. I didn't like the feel of the levers/hoods. I didn't really gain anything from having 1X.

    I had most of the components I needed to convert it to ultegra Di2 with 11/34 and a compact chainset. It gave me a nearly identical top and bottom gear, without the disadvantages of 1X and the "cheesy" feel of the SRAM shifting.

    I'll probably put the new GRX 48/31cranks and FD on it when they show up at the LBS.
    OK, understood.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    That depends. Some bikes sold with 5700/6700 groupos already came stock with 11-speed compatible wheels. One easy way to tell is if you remove your 10-speed cassette and there is a spacer behind it, then it's 11-speed compatible, just remove the spacer, install your 11-speed cassette and you're all set. If there is no spacer, then you will need a hub modification or a new hub.
    Well...10 Shimano cassettes used a 1.0mm silver spacer ALL the time. If you installed a 10 spd cassette on an 11 spd hub you need that 1.0mm spacer AND a 1.85mm spacer to work on the 11 spd freehub.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Well...10 Shimano cassettes used a 1.0mm silver spacer ALL the time. If you installed a 10 spd cassette on an 11 spd hub you need that 1.0mm spacer AND a 1.85mm spacer to work on the 11 spd freehub.
    Oooops! I forgot about the 1.0mm spacer in addition to the 1.85mm spacer. My bad! Hamfri take note.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Be aware you will probably need a new rear hub or modification of the existing one when going from 6700 to any 11 speed.

    I've owned or tried about everything 10 and 11 speed shimano (non electric and caliper brakes only though) and the only difference in shifting I can detect between newer and higher end groups and lower or 10 speed is in the front. 11 speed front shifting has definitely improved upon 10. But I don't shift enough in the front or care about a split second enough to think it has any real impact for me. It's better, but it's not like I was dropping chains or getting a sore wrist from older 10 speed stuff so it's not the type of improvement I'd spend for unless I needed a new group anyway.
    In theory, I can replace the left shifter 105 5700, and the rear derailleur at dura Ace 7900 10 speeds, for example. But I was told in the service that the spring at the front switch is already weak. It turns out that almost the entire group 6700 needs to be replaced. Most likely, I will buy r7000. If I don't find the p8000 as cheap as possible

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    To the OP, since you have asked subsequent questions about this.

    Any modern shimano 11 speed groupset (including the previous generations) will work fine. 5800 series 105, 7000 series 105, 6800 series Ultegra, and 8000 series Ultegra should all play will with each other.

    Generally speaking, you can mix and match shifters, derailleurs, cranks and brakes among these and get good results. If you find a good deal on older (6800 series or 5800 series) Shimano stuff, go for it. You don't need to have all of your components come from the same series to work together.

    There is one minor caveat in that Shimano claims there is a small difference in the chain line for the latest generation of 7000 series 105 and 8000 series Ultegra, although I've yet to hear from anyone claiming they had issues getting them to work with older 6800 and 5800 series derailleurs and shifters.

    Edit to add: There are also limits on cassettes and derailleurs in terms of cage length and the largest cassette cog, but these are not specific to the generation of level of equipment. (i.e. don't try to use a short cage derailleur with a 11-34 cassette, etc...)

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    I thought, and it seems I can buy an incomplete r8000 groupset! Will there be a difference in braking if I replace the old ultegra 6700 brakes with the new r8000 / 7000(dual pivot)?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamfri View Post
    I thought, and it seems I can buy an incomplete r8000 groupset! Will there be a difference in braking if I replace the old ultegra 6700 brakes with the new r8000 / 7000(dual pivot)?
    6700 brakes are dual pivot as well. The newer brakes are a little more powerful and have more room for larger tires.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Well...10 Shimano cassettes used a 1.0mm silver spacer ALL the time. If you installed a 10 spd cassette on an 11 spd hub you need that 1.0mm spacer AND a 1.85mm spacer to work on the 11 spd freehub.
    I know we're talking about road cassettes. But for those who think about using a Shimano 10spe mtb cassette (like me), then Shimano 10spd mtb cassettes don't have this 1mm spacer that come with them and don't need it.

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