electronic record group set
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  1. #1

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    electronic record group set

    I was reading some stuff on the current develop of "electronic record" at cycling news. Has anyone seen this?

    It looks really cool! A couple of thoughts the battery is huge, I wonder if it would be possible to package the battery under the brake hoods. This would be a lot cleaner look.

    I guess it would shift better also?

    Who knows.

    K

  2. #2
    Lemur-ing
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    What is this new alien technology that you are talking about?

    I'd like to see how good it really it and whether it's more of a marketing thing than an improved product.
    Quote Originally Posted by tconrady
    If I can get some more tomorrow.... I thought it'd grow on me but I'm not feelin' it....wait..
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  3. #3
    RoadBikeReview Member
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    Ho-hum

    Campy has been working on electronic shifting for years. I believe that other company has too. I'm sure a bunch of fools will line up to buy it. I think it's overkill. It's bad enough that components have gone from indestructible 6 speed to fragile 10 speed wit $$$$ to replace breaking and fast wearing parts, now add more stuff to break? No thanks.

  4. #4

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    I am interested to see how the electronic groups turn out. Depending on the details of the design they really could be rather revolutionary. I think their biggest market won't be the high end though, but the lower end where joe everyday doesn't want to learn how to properly adjust his derailleurs or shifters.

    I think there are some potential advantages versus mechanical if a system is designed properly;
    (Hopes his ideas aren't about to get stolen.)

    -One shifter -> all speeds: One could use Dip switches to set up the shifter for a 7, 8, 9, or 10 speed setup. I don't know if either campy or shimano would actually BOTHER with this but if they did it would be a boon to cyclists who want to run a nonstandard setup as it were

    -Easy Setup: In theory, if the shifter's set up for the proper number of speeds, all one would have to do is position the derailleur in the correct initial position and then it should flawlessly shift.

    -Better than expected durability: Well, this one would be true if we ditched this solenoid crap. Stepper motors are far more reliable (They were used in hard drives for years for precision tracking, main issue was the relatively slow response for computer use, I don't think it would be a problem in the biking world,) and if people are worried the design could possibly be modularized. Actually I remember reading somewhere that campy may have been using a motor instead of a solenoid.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by to11mtm
    -One shifter -> all speeds: One could use Dip switches to set up the shifter for a 7, 8, 9, or 10 speed setup. I don't know if either campy or shimano would actually BOTHER with this but if they did it would be a boon to cyclists who want to run a nonstandard setup as it were
    This depends on how the indexing mechanism works. The two high-end electronic shifting systems that had the widest usage were Zap and Mektronic (both from Mavic). Both of these systems had indexing detents built into the rear derailleur. As such, the rear Zap rear derailleur was 8spd only, and the Mektronic rear derailleur was 9spd only. The only way to change the number of speeds in these systems would be replace the rear derailleur. It's hard to tell how the prototype Campagnolo system works, but it is most likely that it also uses a fixed encoder system in the rear derailleur.

    Quote Originally Posted by to11mtm
    -Easy Setup: In theory, if the shifter's set up for the proper number of speeds, all one would have to do is position the derailleur in the correct initial position and then it should flawlessly shift.
    Why should setup of an electronic system be any easier? It still needs the same mechanical adjustments, including setting the upper and lower limit stops, setting the B-tension, and setting the indexing offset (i.e initial position).

    Quote Originally Posted by to11mtm
    -Better than expected durability: Well, this one would be true if we ditched this solenoid crap. Stepper motors are far more reliable (They were used in hard drives for years for precision tracking, main issue was the relatively slow response for computer use, I don't think it would be a problem in the biking world,) and if people are worried the design could possibly be modularized. Actually I remember reading somewhere that campy may have been using a motor instead of a solenoid.
    So far, all the electronic systems released have had worse durability than mechanical systems. Stepper motors might be reliable, but they have little torque/weight ratio - i.e. it would take a very heavy motor to index with precision. It is more likely that a DC motor and encoder system would be used - this would be faster and more repeatable.

    Quote Originally Posted by to11mtm
    I am interested to see how the electronic groups turn out. Depending on the details of the design they really could be rather revolutionary. I think their biggest market won't be the high end though, but the lower end where joe everyday doesn't want to learn how to properly adjust his derailleurs or shifters.
    I also agree that the market will be at the low end - but for different reasons. It can be sold for its "gee-whiz" factor rather than performance in this market.

    I believe that electronic bicycle shifting will end up like a lot of other things that on the surface seem like good ideas. Most of these ideas end up introducing more problems than they solve and are abandoned (only to be "re-invented" with the next generation of users). Some simply be come alternatives, with just a different set of pros and cons. Only rarely does it end up being an improvement.

    Here is a small list of other concepts that keep getting "re-invented" in the cycling realm:

    Airless tires
    Non-round chainrings
    Belt or shaft drives
    Nose-less saddles
    Reciprocating cranks
    Infinitely variable transmissions
    Electronic shifting

    Although a few of these have had a minor number of adherents over the years, none has practically displaced traditional designs.
    Last edited by Mark McM; 02-15-2007 at 11:13 AM.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark McM
    This depends on how the indexing mechanism works. The two high-end electronic shifting systems that had the widest usage were Zap and Mektronic (both from Mavic). Both of these systems had indexing detents built into the rear derailleur. As such, the rear Zap rear derailleur was 8spd only, and the Mektronic rear derailleur was 9spd only. The only way to change the number of speeds in these systems would be replace the rear derailleur. It's hard to tell how the prototype Campagnolo system works, but it is most likely that it also uses a fixed encoder system in the rear derailleur.



    Why should setup of an electronic system be any easier? It still needs the same mechanical adjustments, including setting the upper and lower limit stops, setting the B-tension, and setting the indexing offset (i.e initial position).
    I would think in a proper implementation of a stepper motor setup all you would need is the initial position. As long as the software was coded correctly for the indexing it shouldn't ever go too far either way.

    Edit: And B tension, yes. But that still takes a lot out of the setup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark McM
    So far, all the electronic systems released have had worse durability than mechanical systems. Stepper motors might be reliable, but they have little torque/weight ratio - i.e. it would take a very heavy motor to index with precision. It is more likely that a DC motor and encoder system would be used - this would be faster and more repeatable.
    I'd have to talk to my EE and ME friends about that. My limited coursework/experience with motors keeps me from being able to say for certain which would be preferable. Weight/torque ratios aside, I still think that the Stepper would be more repeatable than an encoded DC Motor. If the Encoder system was more repeatable than Stepper motors I would have expected to see that on hard drives between the Steppers and the modern Voice coils. I know the discussion is about the high end groups but I think on the low end weight is less of an issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mark McM
    I believe that electronic bicycle shifting will end up like a lot of other things that on the surface seem like good ideas. Most of these ideas end up introducing more problems than they solve and are abandoned (only to be "re-invented" with the next generation of users). Some simply be come alternatives, with just a different set of pros and cons. Only rarely does it end up being an improvement.

    Here is a small list of other concepts that keep getting "re-invented" in the cycling realm:

    Airless tires
    Non-round chainrings
    Belt or shaft drives
    Nose-less saddles
    Reciprocating cranks
    Infinitely variable transmissions
    Electronic shifting

    Although a few of these have had a minor number of adherents over the years, none has practically displaced traditional designs.
    You left out Indexed Shifting and Clipless pedals... because someone eventually got them right.

  7. #7
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    What is the point of a saddle nose? Why not noseless, and eliminate some weight and something to bump into getting in/out of saddle, at least for some riders/uses?

  8. #8
    NeoRetroGrouch
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    "I also agree that the market will be at the low end - but for different reasons. It can be sold for its "gee-whiz" factor rather than performance in this market."

    I think the high end market is much more "gee-whiz" than the low end. Most low end riders wouldn't even know or care. - TF
    "Don't those guys know they're old?!!"
    Me, off the back, at my first 50+ road race.

  9. #9
    BrooklynVelo
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    Quote Originally Posted by HammerTime-TheOriginal
    What is the point of a saddle nose? Why not noseless, and eliminate some weight and something to bump into getting in/out of saddle, at least for some riders/uses?
    The saddle nose allows the rider more positions. It allows you to ride "on the rivet" as it were.

    And there are plenty of noseless saddles out there and plenty of people buying them. But for the performance crowd they'll never take off.
    Damn the Man, Save the Empire
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