Frozen Bottle Cage Bolts
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  1. #1
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    Frozen Bottle Cage Bolts

    I realize there are a multitude of threads on my topic, however, I'm looking for a fresh look at my specific issue.

    I've come across an old Trek 5200 OCLV frame and it seems the previous owner did not have any grease most of the time.

    I got 1 bottle cage off without too much difficulty (yes you guessed it, the seat tube cage) almost getting to the point of rounding off the hex heads. The cage on the downtube was a different story. No luck with various length hex wrenches. I finally was able to secure visegrips on the bolts, but both bolt heads just snapped right off, leaving the remainder of the bolts stuck, frozen in the frame. I can see quite a bit of corrosion. If fact some of the corrosion seems to spread over nearby areas of the carbon tube.

    Do you think I have any chance of extracting the bolt remains, or has the corrosion simply fused bolt to the threaded receiver? I've been spraying WD40 on the bolt fragments, but as they fill the holes completely, I doubt whether any of this is getting to the threads, fused or not.

    Any tips appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GKSki View Post
    I realize there are a multitude of threads on my topic, however, I'm looking for a fresh look at my specific issue.

    I've come across an old Trek 5200 OCLV frame and it seems the previous owner did not have any grease most of the time.

    I got 1 bottle cage off without too much difficulty (yes you guessed it, the seat tube cage) almost getting to the point of rounding off the hex heads. The cage on the downtube was a different story. No luck with various length hex wrenches. I finally was able to secure visegrips on the bolts, but both bolt heads just snapped right off, leaving the remainder of the bolts stuck, frozen in the frame. I can see quite a bit of corrosion. If fact some of the corrosion seems to spread over nearby areas of the carbon tube.

    Do you think I have any chance of extracting the bolt remains, or has the corrosion simply fused bolt to the threaded receiver? I've been spraying WD40 on the bolt fragments, but as they fill the holes completely, I doubt whether any of this is getting to the threads, fused or not.

    Any tips appreciated.
    No, I don't.

  3. #3
    tlg
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    Your best bet is probably to drill out the remaining bolt and run a tap through it.

    Use a 4mm (5/32") or smaller bit and M5 tap.



    And if that doesn't work, drill out the insert and put in a Rivnut.
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    I've not had great luck using WD40 as a penetrating oil. If you can find some, Kroil is great stuff. PB Blaster works less great, but still better than WD40 and readily available. Kroil draws into gaps really well, and will creep and flow everywhere, so don't get it on things you don't want loose. Also, I'm not sure how it will interact with the resin used in the frame and threaded inserts, so use at your own risk or maybe test it somewhere.

    You could try giving it a little penetrating oil every day for a few days, then try a left-handed drill bit. You should be able to find those at a hardware store, and definitely online. I have a set of LH bits and extractors. I'd say half the time the bolt comes out with the drill bit and Kroil. If not, on to the extractor.

    If none of that works, drill it out as tlg said.

  5. #5
    'brifter' is f'ing stupid
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    PB Blaster or something like that. Then (most likely) a drill then an EZOut. Possibly a tap, maybe a new rivnut. If the hole is too big any Trek dealer can get you oversize rivnuts.
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    Thanks all for the great advice. I'm thinking the bolt and the female part have pretty much corroded together by now. I'll try the PB Blaster and patient workflow first before proceeding to surgery.

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    Penetrant alone won't break the bond. After you let the fluid do its thing, rap the bolt with a hammer repeatedly for say 1-3 minutes. Never apply so much force turning the bolt to force it to move where you jeopardize the integrity of the bolt. Work it in BOTH directions, rocking back and forth. It may take hours, but patience is your tool.

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    Peter, wish the bolt heads had not snapped off in the vise grips as your suggestion may have been the way to go.

    I have no bolt material remaining to get a purchase on.
    Last edited by GKSki; 08-14-2020 at 05:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GKSki View Post
    Thanks all for the great advice. I'm thinking the bolt and the female part have pretty much corroded together by now. I'll try the PB Blaster and patient workflow first before proceeding to surgery.
    Try SiliKroil - it's the best penetrating oil I've ever used. Pricey but it works better than the others IMHO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GKSki View Post
    Peter, wish the bolt heads had not snapped off in the vise grips as your suggestion may have been the way to go.

    I have no bolt material remaining too get a purchase on.
    You might try using a thin punch, and tapping on the bolt "stud" using that.

    I'm not familiar with that model of Trek, are the mounts aluminum inserts? If so, it's my understanding from reading here that ammonia can help dissolve the corrosion you're dealing with. I've never had to do it, so can't speak first-hand, but trying couldn't hurt, before you have to drag out the tapset. Best of luck.
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    Thanks, but I think ammonia may introduce a different set of problems and danger.

    I managed to drill through the bolts with a 5/64" bit and have tried using the screw extractor but no luck so far but I will keep trying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GKSki View Post
    Thanks, but I think ammonia may introduce a different set of problems and danger.

    I managed to drill through the bolts with a 5/64" bit and have tried using the screw extractor but no luck so far but I will keep trying.
    If you drilled through the bolt, just tap it and use a smaller bolt, done!
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    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    If you drilled through the bolt, just tap it and use a smaller bolt, done!
    No don't do that!
    You don't want a smaller (weaker) bolt in compromised material.

    Just use the correct M5 tap.
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    O.K. I know the bit I used to drill the hole through was 5/64 as that is what the screw remover paired with. To be honest, one hole seems centered while the other is a bit off center. Does anyone know what size bit is used before an M5 tap? Also, it's a fine M5, correct?
    Last edited by GKSki; 08-14-2020 at 05:50 PM.

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    M5 x .8.
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    Thanks, CX, that's the thread. Now what is the proper bit size to use before tapping?

  17. #17
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by GKSki View Post
    Thanks, CX, that's the thread. Now what is the proper bit size to use before tapping?
    post #3

    4mm (5/32") is the tap drill for M5.
    You can use a little smaller too, especially if you're off center a bit. The tap will clean out any remaining bits.
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  18. #18
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    Thanks, I'm all set now. Unfortunately one of the inserts is now a spinner from trying the screw remover. Guess i won't be able to tap that one unless I can keep it from moving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GKSki View Post
    Thanks, I'm all set now. Unfortunately one of the inserts is now a spinner from trying the screw remover. Guess i won't be able to tap that one unless I can keep it from moving.
    Can you hold it still enough to begin threading a bolt?

    What's usually done is, thread a nut on the new bolt and thread the bolt into the boss. Holding the bolt head stationary, tighten the "jam" nut against the boss. It should draw up the rivnut and secure it.

  20. #20
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by GKSki View Post
    Thanks, I'm all set now. Unfortunately one of the inserts is now a spinner from trying the screw remover. Guess i won't be able to tap that one unless I can keep it from moving.
    Now ya gotta get the insert out. Try drilling larger and larger one bit size at a time until it falls out.
    If it spins and you can't drill it, try a dremmel.
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  21. #21
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    Tapping was going well until the receiver started spinning. Any tips for getting the tap out.

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    Any tips on dealing with the "spinner" remaining? The other one came out wiggling to get the tap out. Wasn't good for the carbon tube though. Does it look that i will be able to put a rivnut in the hole?
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  23. #23
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    I would have put a bottle cage on with a stainless steel pipe clamp before I did the disaster that I see.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by GKSki View Post
    Does it look that i will be able to put a rivnut in the hole?
    You can always go up one size on the bottle cage bolt, to a 6mm. That would mean using a slightly larger rivnut, which might fit the hole better. And you would only need to modify one hole. Leave the other hole as-is.

    What's the hole measure? A 5mm rivnut requires a 7mm hole; a 6mm rivnut requires a 9mm hole. As a rule, always try the smaller size first, before making permanent modifications to the hole.

    As for removing the remaining rivnut; you've obviously got to get a purchase on the remaining rivnut flange. I would try applying a strip of duct tape over the rivnut. Then use a Dremel tool with a tapered bit to grind it out. Or you could use a small round file and file down through the rivnut, which wouldn't spin the rivnut at all.

  25. #25
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    I was able to Dremel the 2nd flange out, , so one exit was rough and this one went pretty smoothly in the end, although now I have to pull the bottom bracket to get the piece out.

    I put calipers on the 2 remaining holes and they are roughly 9mm. I also measured the existing flanges on the seat tube and those had an OD of 11mm.

    I'll have to learn more about finding the right rivnut (probably will have to be a 6mm) and how to install. I'm guessing my pop riveter will not be suitable for the job.
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