Glueless Patch Failures - Page 2
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  1. #26
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    Sorry, but we seem to be having a problem communicating, due to all the changes in definitions.
    When I said 'old' english, I was talking about 1965 english, which is older than now. I suggest from now on, every word one uses should include in parathesis the year of the defining definition of the meaning of the word in use.
    Until further notice, all my words will be defined as they were in 1965, you can change all the definitions to words as you wish, as my sister sayes, "it doesn't really matter". .. and I guess it really doesn't matter, unless one is trying to COMMUNICATE!
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    Until further notice, all my words will be defined as they were in 1965
    Do you mean that literally?

    'Literally' Definition Changes in Google, Merriam-Webster, Oxford
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  3. #28
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    No (1965) !!!!!!
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  4. #29
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    Glueless Patch Failures

    It would seem to me that the term "vulcanization" is irrelevant to patching tubes. What we care about is bonding rubber, not vulcanizing, which is a hardening process.

    I read you can use superglue to patch a tube. Just pinch the tube at the puncture and apply a drop to the edges of the puncture, then put a drop over the top for good measure. Anyone tried it? I think a Rema patch would be better though.
    Last edited by mfdemicco; 05-26-2020 at 10:10 AM.

  5. #30
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfdemicco View Post
    I read you can use superglue to patch a tube. Just pinch the tube at the puncture and apply a drop to the edges of the puncture, then put a drop over the top for good measure. Anyone tried it?
    No way that'd work.

    Superglues are cyanoacrylate glues. They dry hard and brittle. Rubber is flexible. As soon as you inflate the tube it'd pull apart.

    Cyanoacrylate's will bond rubber. It's very common in industry to splice O-Rings with cyanoacrylate's. But they're not being stretched and inflated.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfdemicco View Post
    It would seem to me that the term "vulcanization" is irrelevant to patching tubes.
    Totally untrue. If you have ever installed a vulcanized patch, you would not be saying this. They are very good, better than the tube.

    OK, I'm going to let you know I used to work for Goodyear, building tires out of ....rubber. I know quite a bit of which I speak, regardless of the definition.
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  7. #32
    jta
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    Discussion re: vulcanization and language evolution (fascinating stuff, BTW) aside, I have butyl and latex tubes sitting around. Lately I've been using Michelin Ultralight butyl.

    I think latex tubes might still provide slightly smoother ride, but wondering if they can be patched with better success. For my purposes, I stopped using latex out of convenience since ride quality gains seem to be nomimal on the tire and wheel set-up I use.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jta View Post
    Discussion re: vulcanization and language evolution (fascinating stuff, BTW) aside, I have butyl and latex tubes sitting around. Lately I've been using Michelin Ultralight butyl.

    I think latex tubes might still provide slightly smoother ride, but wondering if they can be patched with better success. For my purposes, I stopped using latex out of convenience since ride quality gains seem to be nomimal on the tire and wheel set-up I use.
    You can patch latex tubes with the same patch kit you use for butyl.


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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfdemicco View Post
    You can patch latex tubes with the same patch kit you use for butyl.


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    Really? I'd always heard that you couldn't, but TBH I always took "their" word for it any never tried. Have you done this successfully? If so, I guess I'll go back to carrying a "proper" patch kit. Back in the day, I successfully patched many a tube road-side with the chemically-vulcanizing ;) kits.
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  10. #35
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    I always carry spare tubes, and then repair them with a glued on patch, when I get home. I've become quite adept at patching butyl tubes. It doesn't bother me to have three of four patches on a tube. That, and my use of inexpensive clinchers for training, saves me more than a few bucks.
    PS. glueless patches on a high pressure clincher is a rather silly idea.
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  11. #36
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by jta View Post
    I think latex tubes might still provide slightly smoother ride, but wondering if they can be patched with better success.
    Are you wondering about glueless or chemically-vulcanizing ;) patches?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldChipper View Post
    Really? I'd always heard that you couldn't, but TBH I always took "their" word for it any never tried. Have you done this successfully? If so, I guess I'll go back to carrying a "proper" patch kit. Back in the day, I successfully patched many a tube road-side with the chemically-vulcanizing ;) kits.
    Yea you can patch latex. I've done it a bunch. I think the patches set up even faster on latex then butyl.
    More of a problem is latex is really stretchy and hard to work with. And after it's been deflated has a 'memory' and stays rippled. Which can make getting a good seal all around tough.

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  12. #37
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    This is what Jobst Brandt said about vulcanizing patches:

    From: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: Tube Patching Question
    Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
    Message-ID:
    Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 07:38:49 GMT

    Bob who? writes:

    > I was patching some tubes today and read the following in the
    > instructions.

    > "...the patch starts the vulcanization immediately but the complete
    > vulcanization is achieved only after the tire runs on the road."

    > What ramifications does the above statement hold? How long can I
    > wait before using my now patched tubes, etc?

    First: It is not true that the common patches vulcanize. If you want
    to try it, just heat a patched tube by pressing the patch against a
    fairly hot Teflon coated frying pan. This is the best method of
    pulling off an old REMA patch. Vulcanized patches do not come off.

    Unless the patch is fairly well cured, rolling on the road only helps
    lift the patch... from the inside to outside starting at the hole.

    http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.1.html

    Jobst Brandt
    [email protected]

    From: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: Tube Patching Question
    Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 05:25:25 GMT

    Pete Biggs writes:

    >> First: It is not true that the common patches vulcanize. If you
    >> want to try it, just heat a patched tube by pressing the patch
    >> against a fairly hot Teflon coated frying pan. This is the best
    >> method of pulling off an old REMA patch. Vulcanized patches do not
    >> come off.

    > That's disappointing. My Velox patches that appeared to be
    > vulcanized have failed the frying pan test. Still, they normally
    > stick and stay stuck very well.

    > Why is cement sometimes called "vulcanizing rubber solution"?

    Snake oil! It sounds good and I bet you can't find a definition for
    that term. Vulcanizing is done with heat, not fluid.

    Jobst Brandt
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  13. #38
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    Mr. Brandt agrees with me.....
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  14. #39
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    My dad worked for a extrusion machine manufacturer, companies like Good Year were his clients. Duriel is right, true rubber vulcanization involves heat. It's actually in the word, vulcan is the god of fire and vulcan is also a common translation of volcano. If you argue it doesn't involve heat well... it's literally in the word.

    I despise glueless patches. They're good for a few months in a kit before they no longer hold a seal when applied. Even when good they might get you home or might not. Always carry a spare tube. I typically use one good unpatched tube as a spare, if I use it I will patch the bad tube at home and swap it back onto the wheel, leaving me a known good tube as a spare. I still carry a real patch kit and a mini pump.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmile View Post
    My dad worked for a extrusion machine manufacturer, companies like Good Year were his clients.
    I've run one of those, for sure, plus a lot of other stuff. I was summer vacation relief, so I was all over the plant. I liked working the 3rd shift cause all the big dogs were gone!
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    Are you wondering about glueless or chemically-vulcanizing ;) patches?

    Yea you can patch latex. I've done it a bunch. I think the patches set up even faster on latex then butyl.
    More of a problem is latex is really stretchy and hard to work with. And after it's been deflated has a 'memory' and stays rippled. Which can make getting a good seal all around tough.
    Good point on the rippling, but thanks for the info. Worth carrying a patch kit then for an emergency even if it's a low-probability option, better than no option.
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  17. #42
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    Sure, I want to reduce waste in our landfills too, but a bike tube just doesn't take the same amount of landfill space as an elephant. At $7 per tube and the once a year or less I get a flat, it's just not worth the hassle and risk of patching a tube. Just carry a spare and replace when necessary.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Sure, I want to reduce waste in our landfills too, but a bike tube just doesn't take the same amount of landfill space as an elephant. At $7 per tube and the once a year or less I get a flat, it's just not worth the hassle and risk of patching a tube. Just carry a spare and replace when necessary.
    I'm at a loss, what is the risk in patching a tube?
    Too old to ride plastic

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    I'm at a loss, what is the risk in patching a tube?
    There’s a small risk that the patch won’t hold. And if you’re sitting on the side of the road in 90 degree heat and 90 percent humidity every second counts. And that’s why I carry CO2 cartridges. Ditto when it’s 40 degrees.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ogre View Post
    There’s a small risk that the patch won’t hold. And if you’re sitting on the side of the road in 90 degree heat and 90 percent humidity every second counts. And that’s why I carry CO2 cartridges. Ditto when it’s 40 degrees.
    So stick a spare in and patch the tube when you get home, pump up the tube to check your work and carry it for use in your next flat. I still don't see the risk.

    And what about a bad day that brings 2, 3 or more flats, how man tubes need be carried before the ride can be considered risk free.

    It just seems, to me, that throwing all these co2 cartridges, once flatted tubes and elephants into the land fill is just a big waste.
    Too old to ride plastic

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    So stick a spare in and patch the tube when you get home, pump up the tube to check your work and carry it for use in your next flat. I still don't see the risk.

    And what about a bad day that brings 2, 3 or more flats, how man tubes need be carried before the ride can be considered risk free.

    It just seems, to me, that throwing all these co2 cartridges, once flatted tubes and elephants into the land fill is just a big waste.
    As Lombard said, tossing a single tube a year is no big whoop. I'm pretty sure both him and I make full use of elephant carcasses before discarding.

    On a serious note - Our family recently started greatly reducing our use of ziploc bags. We used to store lots of leftovers in them, now we use washable/resuseable plastic containers. That's got to have a much greater impact than the 0.9 flats I get a year. We make a difference if we see an opportunity but don't sweat the small stuff.

    And I previously mentioned that I've patched three tubes in the 25+ years I've been involved with bike shops. Tubes at wholesale are ridiculously cheap. Not that it justifies buying new tubes, but it takes away a ton of motivation to patch. One tube a year, I'm not losing any sleep. As I said, I always carry a patch kit to take care of n+1 flats, or flats where my spare tube is a frikking schrader valve.

    Do you ever use a plastic straw or styrofoam cups?

  22. #47
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    I'm sure that you strip the ivory from the elephant before discarding, and no, I don't use straws, but yes I do use the occasional Styrofoam cup as I find that easier and more sanitary than drinking from my Styrofoam helmet. But I'm not railing against over use of the land fills, I've even been known to use the occasional co2 cartridge myself, I just don't understand discarding an item that still has plenty of usable life left, such as a tube that can be easily and safely patched, usually more than once.
    Too old to ride plastic

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    I'm at a loss, what is the risk in patching a tube?
    I've been patching tubes for years. I have tubes with multiple patches. I've never, not once had a glue on patch fail. They are permanent. There is no risk.

    Now... I have had brand new tubes, right out of the box fail. I'd say there's more risk using a new tube.

  24. #49
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    I will second that, I have more confidence my patched spare tube will hold air than a brand new one out of the box, on the side of the road.
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  25. #50
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    Wow, I like where I've taken this discussion.

    FYI, I do also carry a patch kit just in the unlikely case where I have such a bad day I run out of tubes. I have never had that bad a day - knock on carbon, aluminum, Reynolds CroMo or whatever I'm riding at the time. I should probably check to make sure the glue hasn't dried out completely by now as it's a few years old.

    Strip the ivory from the elephant? No, that would be poaching.

    No, I don't use CO2 cartridges. I carry a good old humble Topeak Mini Morph. I don't use straws, foam cups, paper plates or plastic cutlery either. I wash and re-use Ziplock bags, but only the ones that I have used for vegetative items. Ziplock bags that had meat or any other animal products get tossed.

    As Ogre wisely said, fretting over wasting less than one tube per year is silly. As the saying goes, don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things. TLG does have a point about a tube defective out of the box, but I have yet to have this happen.
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