Glueless Patch Failures
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  1. #1
    jta
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    Glueless Patch Failures

    Anybody else experiencing glueless patch failure on repaired tubes?

    I think I have about a 50% failure rate for roadside repairs and wondering if I should switch to carrying a patch kit with glue-on patches. In my case, the patches separate from the tube after the repair, causing a second flat. At this point I'll simply install a new tube.

    I have tried Lezyne patches, which failed pretty much 100% of the time, so I switched back to Park Tool. The failures I'm experiencing are specifically the patch coming off the tube following a repair. I scuffed the area around the puncture, but did not clean it off with a spray from my water bottle. Is this critical?

    Also wondering if patches do not adhere well over a seam, as was the case from my ride yesterday.

    Edit: Grrr... before starting this thread I searched for "glueless patch kit" without getting any good hits. After submitting, several threads at the bottom of the webpage were displayed that were helpful. Anyway, the threads are bit old. If you've come across a good, reliable glueless patchkit, LMK, thanks.
    Last edited by jta; 05-25-2020 at 12:46 PM.

  2. #2
    'brifter' is f'ing stupid
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    Glueless patches suck...always have, always will. Carrying a spare tube or 2 doesn't work for you? Personally I haven't patched a tube in over 25 years...maybe more.
    #promechaniclife

  3. #3
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    Most people can't patch a tube in their garage that will hold, even with the proper glue & separate patch.
    Carry tubes and Co2's. I carry glueless in case I run out of those.
    If you use glueless, plan on fixing it properly at home.
    I patch all my tubes, always, until I got 10 patches on them. But I'm very clean and meticulous and have worked with rubber quite a bit.
    "very clean and meticulous" is extremely hard to do on the side of the road.
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  4. #4
    jta
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    I carry a mini pump that fits into a jersey pocket, but no CO2. I don't mind the extra effort since I'm not racing or in a group and I flat only 2-3 times a year at most. If I decide to join a group, then I'd carry CO2. I usually carry the punctured tube until I come across a trash can, but maybe I'll just carry them home and properly repair them with a good patch kit per your suggestion.

    Thanks CX and Duriel. Thought at the very least they'd be reliable enough to get you home. Now I know. Glueless sucks.

  5. #5
    jta
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Carrying a spare tube or 2 doesn't work for you? Personally I haven't patched a tube in over 25 years...maybe more.
    I always carry a spare tube, patch kit, a mini pump and multi-tool 'cause I want to get home to eat pizza

  6. #6
    Russian Troll Farmer
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    Are you REALLY surprised that a glueless patch sucks? I found that out 25+ years ago. Even the best patches are no better than a small square of duct-tape. Just carry a spare tube, always have 4 or 5 tubes available, and when you have enough punctured tubes laying around, have yourself a patch-party.
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  7. #7
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    Count me as another person who has had nothing but bad luck with glueless patches.

    They're junk, and not even worthy for a temporary repair.

  8. #8
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    I've had the Park ones work as a temporary repair, but that was a long time ago. They start peeling off after a while. I would think they've been improved over time, but apparently not. Anyway, I carry two tubes and you don't want to be patching a tube at the side of the road anyway, as a small hole is hard to find.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Personally I haven't patched a tube in over 25 years...maybe more.
    Three years ago I was doing a gravel ride in the boonies with two other guys, and they got ahead of me. I had a flat while I was alone, no big deal. After I pulled out the old tube I got out my new tube ............ it was a schrader valve! I probably carried that thing around for twenty rides. That was the last time I patched a tube. Thank goodness it's SOP for me to carry a patch kit. I patched the tube and was airing it up when my friends came back. I'm pretty sure that's one of three tubes I've patched since I started working at a bike shop 25+ years ago.

  10. #10
    tlg
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    I've had glueless patches work on low pressure MTB tubes. But on road tubes, naaaaa. Problem is, the tube needs to be perfectly clean. And your hands need to be perfectly clean. It's really hard to do that roadside. Even if everything is perfectly clean, it's still 50/50 odds the patch will hold.

    If you want to patch your tubes, there's one solution, Rema patches with vulcanizing glue.
    https://www.rema-tiptop.com/fileadmi...EN_5811921.pdf

    You can do it roadside, but you have to wait 5-10min for the glue to set. And still have to try and keep the tube and your hands clean.

    I change the tube on the road and take the punctured one home to patch where I can keep everything clean. I've never had a Rema fail and have tubes with more than 5 patches.
    But nowadays most of my wheels are tubeless and I haven't had a flat in years.
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  11. #11
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    I'm glad you asked.
    I always carry at least one, 2 for solo rides, spare tubes but also a few patches as further backup in case I have a really bad day with flats. Thankfully it's never come to that and I've always wondered if the patch would actually work. Probably not, as I was suspecting.

    I'll probably still carry them though because there's really no significance to doing so because they are so small. If they work well enough to get home great. If not I suppose nothing lost by trying.

  12. #12
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    I've used glueless patches and made it back home, but like I said, I've worked with rubber for years. You bikers aren't going to be able to do that on the road.

    Those are not vulcanizing, sorry. They just use the name. I used to use 'true' vulcanizing patches, (before false news), and you would use a match to light it up (starting a controlled chemical/fire/heat) to provide the temperatures required for vulcanizing. Those patches were better than the original rubber, I've looked and looked but can not find them today.
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  13. #13
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    Those are not vulcanizing, sorry.
    Yes they are, sorry.

    There are several forms of vulcanizing. Room temperature chemical vulcanizing being one of them.
    Vulcanization (British: Vulcanisation) refers to a range of processes for hardening rubbers. The term originally referred exclusively to the treatment of natural rubber with sulfur, which remains the most common practice; however, it has also grown to include the hardening of other (synthetic) rubbers via various means. Examples include silicone rubber via room temperature vulcanizing and chloroprene rubber (neoprene) using metal oxides.

    Vulcanization can therefore be defined as the curing of elastomers; with the terms 'vulcanization' and 'curing' sometimes used interchangeably in this context. It works by forming cross-links between sections of polymer chain which results in increased rigidity and durability, as well as other changes in the mechanical and electrical properties of the material. Vulcanization, in common with the curing of other thermosetting polymers, is generally irreversible.
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  14. #14
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    It depends on the brand. I've tried those dark glueless (look like rubber) patches and was disappointed but the newer one with semi-transparent pad work better. They all dry up after a few months so that needs to be accounted for.

  15. #15
    What the what???
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    I carry a mini pump, patches and a spare tube. If I flat, I'll use the spare tube first. On those rare occasions where I flat more than once, I'll try to patch the second puncture (or patch the puncture in the original tube) in order to get back home. Once I'm home, patched tubes get swapped out for new ones.
    Given his penchant for nicknames, and his aversion to reading, I've decided to shorten Donald J. Trump to it's essence: Dump*

    I was "social distancing" before it was cool.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    Yes they are, sorry.
    False news, you can't just change the definition of ... words.

    vul·can·ize: harden (rubber or a similar material) by treating it with sulfur at a high temperature.

    When do you hit it with high temperature? I think my work here is done, today


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  17. #17
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    Glueless Patch Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    False news, you can't just change the definition of ... words.

    vul·can·ize: harden (rubber or a similar material) by treating it with sulfur at a high temperature.

    When do you hit it with high temperature? I think my work here is done, today


    You're right. The Rema patches are not vulcanizing. A patch can be removed with heat. I've removed a bad patch that's been on the tube for a long time by pushing the patch down on a hot frying pan wearing a leather glove. The Yarchive.com articles on patching by Jobst Brandt are a good read (and on Sheldonbrown.com as well). I used to carry a rema patch kit, but the glue dries out as well. I do carry a glueless patch kit though, but with two tubes, I've never had to use it.

  18. #18
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    I carry them, along side a tube, as a backup and have used them on occasion. They've got me home when used, and, in fact, I have found them, who knows how long after being applied, still adhered to the tube when mounting a new tire or suffering another flat.

    They may not be the best option but hey have worked for me when applied using a modicum of care.
    Too old to ride plastic

  19. #19
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    Too old to ride plastic

  20. #20
    jta
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    Quote Originally Posted by ogre View Post
    Three years ago I was doing a gravel ride in the boonies with two other guys, and they got ahead of me. I had a flat while I was alone, no big deal. After I pulled out the old tube I got out my new tube ............ it was a schrader valve! I probably carried that thing around for twenty rides. That was the last time I patched a tube. Thank goodness it's SOP for me to carry a patch kit. I patched the tube and was airing it up when my friends came back. I'm pretty sure that's one of three tubes I've patched since I started working at a bike shop 25+ years ago.
    Funny story – glad it worked out okay. I used to simply replace tubes until a year or two ago, but i got worried that if the second tube failed, I’d be stranded. Now, thinking it’s practical to just replace the tube and keep the punctured tube in a pocket. This way, if the second fails, i’ve got two tubes to patch to get me home.

    Riding for over 10 years now and have never been stranded by a flat or mechanical. I keep my bikes well-maintained and careful to eliminate the cause of punctures when fixing a flat, so If I ever do get stranded, it’lll be a very rare occurence. I’ll take that.
    Last edited by jta; 05-26-2020 at 07:26 AM.

  21. #21
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    False news, you can't just change the definition of ... words.
    lmfao. You don't seriously think dictionaries haven't been changed or updated since the 1800's?

    Besides, I haven't changed or defined anything. Engineers, chemists, and scientists define it.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict.../vulcanization
    the process of treating crude or synthetic rubber or similar plastic material chemically to give it useful properties (such as elasticity, strength, and stability)

    McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Scientific & Technical Terms
    A chemical reaction of sulfur (or other vulcanizing agent) with rubber or plastic to cause cross-linking of the polymer chains; it increases strength and resiliency of the polymer. Also known as cure.

    McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Architecture and Construction
    An irreversible process during which a rubber compound, through a change in its chemical structures, becomes less plastic, more resistant to swelling by organic liquids, and more elastic (or the elastic properties are extended over a greater range of temperature).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcanization
    Vulcanization (British: Vulcanisation) refers to a range of processes for hardening rubbers. The term originally referred exclusively to the treatment of natural rubber with sulfur, which remains the most common practice; however, it has also grown to include the hardening of other (synthetic) rubbers via various means. Examples include silicone rubber via room temperature vulcanizing and chloroprene rubber (neoprene) using metal oxides.

    Vulcanization can therefore be defined as the curing of elastomers; with the terms 'vulcanization' and 'curing' sometimes used interchangeably in this context. It works by forming cross-links between sections of polymer chain which results in increased rigidity and durability, as well as other changes in the mechanical and electrical properties of the material.[2] Vulcanization, in common with the curing of other thermosetting polymers, is generally irreversible.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jta View Post
    Funny story – glad it worked out okay. I used to simply replace tubes until a year or two ago, but i got worried that if the second tube failed, I’d be stranded. Now, thinking it’s practical to just replace the tube and keep the punctured tube in a pocket. This way, if the second fails, i’ve got two tubes to patch to get me home.

    Riding for over 10 years now and have never been stranded by a flat or mechanical. I keep my bikes well-maintained and careful to eliminate the cause of punctures when fixing a flat, so If I ever do get stranded, it’lll be a very rare occurence. I’ll take that.
    When doing it this way if you have another flat the 1st flat can be patched before pulling the tube out of the tire. Pump the repaired tube and then remove the wheel from the bike, this allows the patch to prove a good repair before installing it. Also allows you to apply the patch with cleaner hands so less chance of contamination cemented or scuffed surface.
    Too old to ride plastic

  23. #23
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    I still use the 'old' english definition. You can use whatever you feel is right.

    Why did they change the definition? Cause they wanted to sell something, which it wasn't.
    Why don't they just say 'chemically vulcanized'?

    I'm starting a revolution, by my 'definition'! You can figure out what that is!
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  24. #24
    jta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    I'm glad you asked.
    I always carry at least one, 2 for solo rides, spare tubes but also a few patches as further backup in case I have a really bad day with flats. Thankfully it's never come to that and I've always wondered if the patch would actually work. Probably not, as I was suspecting.

    I'll probably still carry them though because there's really no significance to doing so because they are so small. If they work well enough to get home great. If not I suppose nothing lost by trying.
    Definitely worth keeping the patch kit as a back-up for reasons you mention. I have fixed punctures with glueless patches that have worked fine. The flat from the last ride was a puncture on a seam, which I believe contributed to the patch not adhering. I’ll also clean the puncture with care since I’m reading that is critical. Also wondering if patches have a limited shelf life. The ones I have must be years old. Maybe replacing every season might help.

  25. #25
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    I still use the 'old' english definition. You can use whatever you feel is right.
    lmao. That's nice


    20 words that once meant something very different
    Nice: This word used to mean “silly, foolish, simple.” Far from the compliment it is today!
    Silly: Meanwhile, silly went in the opposite direction: in its earliest uses, it referred to things worthy or blessed; from there it came to refer to the weak and vulnerable, and more recently to those who are foolish.
    Awful: Awful things used to be “worthy of awe” for a variety of reasons, which is how we get expressions like “the awful majesty of God.”
    Fizzle: The verb fizzle once referred to the act of producing quiet flatulence (think “SBD”); American college slang flipped the word’s meaning to refer to failing at things.
    Wench: A shortened form of the Old English word wenchel (which referred to children of either sex), the word wench used to mean “female child” before it came to be used to refer to female servants — and more pejoratively to wanton women.
    Fathom: It can be hard to fathom how this verb moved from meaning “to encircle with one’s arms” to meaning “to understand after much thought.” Here’s the scoop: One’s outstretched arms can be used as a measurement (a fathom), and once you have fathoms, you can use a fathom line to measure the depth of water. Think metaphorically and fathoming becomes about getting to the bottom of things.
    Clue: Centuries ago, a clue (or clew) was a ball of yarn. Think about threading your way through a maze and you’ll see how we got from yarn to key bits of evidence that help us solve things.
    Myriad: If you had a myriad of things 600 years ago, it meant that you specifically had 10,000 of them — not just a lot.
    Naughty: Long ago, if you were naughty, you had naught or nothing. Then it came to mean evil or immoral, and now you are just badly behaved.
    Eerie: Before the word eerie described things that inspire fear, it used to describe people feeling fear — as in one could feel faint and eerie.
    Spinster: As it sounds, spinsters used to be women who spun. It referred to a legal occupation before it came to mean “unmarried woman” — and often not in the most positive ways, as opposed to a bachelor …
    Bachelor: A bachelor was a young knight before the word came to refer to someone who had achieved the lowest rank at a university — and it lives on in that meaning in today’s B.A. and B.S degrees. It’s been used for unmarried men since Chaucer’s day.
    Flirt: Some 500 years ago, flirting was flicking something away or flicking open a fan or otherwise making a brisk or jerky motion. Now it involves playing with people’s emotions (sometimes it may feel like your heart is getting jerked around in the process).
    Guy: This word is an eponym. It comes from the name of Guy Fawkes, who was part of a failed attempt to blow up Parliament in 1605. Folks used to burn his effigy, a “Guy Fawkes” or a “guy,” and from there it came to refer to a frightful figure. In the U.S., it has come to refer to men in general.
    Hussy: Believe it or not, hussy comes from the word housewife (with several sound changes, clearly) and used to refer to the mistress of a household, not the disreputable woman it refers to today.
    Egregious: It used to be possible for it to be a good thing to be egregious: it meant you were distinguished or eminent. But in the end, the negative meaning of the word won out, and now it means that someone or something is conspicuously bad — not conspicuously good.
    Quell: Quelling something or someone used to mean killing it, not just subduing it.
    Divest: 300 years ago, divesting could involve undressing as well as depriving others of their rights or possessions. It has only recently come to refer to selling off investments.
    Senile: Senile used to refer simply to anything related to old age, so you could have senile maturity. Now it refers specifically to those suffering from senile dementia.
    Meat: Have you ever wondered about the expression “meat and drink”? It comes from an older meaning of the word meat that refers to food in general — solid food of a variety of kinds (not just animal flesh), as opposed to drink.

    Why did they change the definition?
    Because meanings change with the times and technology. (see above)

    Seriously, this is super common grade school knowledge.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/how-the-me...change-1692666
    Stick around long enough and you'll notice that language changes—whether you like it or not. Consider this recent report from columnist Martha Gill on the redefinition of the word literally:

    Broadening
    Also known as generalization or extension, broadening is the process by which a word's meaning becomes more inclusive than an earlier meaning. In Old English, for instance, the word dog referred to just one particular breed, and thing meant a public assembly. In contemporary English, of course, dog can refer to many different breeds, and thing can refer to, well, anything.
    Narrowing
    The opposite of broadening is narrowing (also called specialization or restriction), a type of semantic change in which a word's meaning becomes less inclusive. For example, in Middle English, deer could refer to any animal, and girl could mean a young person of either sex. Today, those words have more specific meanings.
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