I need advices on a new Campagnolo build, 10 or 11. (Someone, please shoot my LBS...)
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  1. #1
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    I need advices on a new Campagnolo build, 10 or 11. (Someone, please shoot my LBS...)

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    Hello! Apologies for the long post - I have seen forum members answer quite tricky Campagnolo questions While I am waiting for an European bike shop to find me a NOS Dedacciai carbon frame with BSA (wow, do they even exist?), I need to decide how to source components. I have Record 10 Ultra shifters, and two alloy Chorus 10 medium cage RDs, and a Veloce 13-29 cassette, so I figured out a 10-speed build would be the best in terms of price/performance. And I can buy a set of NOS Chorus 10 Carbon shifters for 210 EUR, for spares. I have another bike with Chorus 9/10 mix, so eventually, I could save all the spares I own for it.
    Why do I need to use the forum then? Well... In my city, LBS are incredibly rude and would make me beg for even simple repairs - I have been denied some. I had been scream at in 3 shops, because I refuse to buy Asian junk (yuck). One even insisted I sell my high-end Italian bike with Chorus, for a no-name Asian frame with Claris, because..."it shifts much better". Having no real time how to learn to do it myself, I try to keep the things simple. For example, on my other bike, a few shops failed to adjust my Chorus 10 CT FD, and the chain would fly from the outside of the carbon cranks and rub - what a disaster... Then, after spending countless hours, I read that one must lower the FD, and voila - it works.
    Long story short...I am a bit hesitant should I go for 10 or 11 speed. While one can find great prices for Potenza, the complaints about how difficult and frequent it is to adjust, and the long lever throw, and the slower shifting kind of put me off. LBS say they service UT cranks easily, even without the original tools, and they use 3rd party chain links to join Campagnolo 10/11 chains. THEY STRONGLY RECOMMEND I STAY WITH 10, AS IT IS EASIER TO ADJUST AND STAY PERFECT. This tells me they are not very good...But within 100 km, no other bike shops.
    I have not yet chosen a chainring combination. I think Square taper is easier to service in most cases, and requires less special tools. I found a 52/39 Record square taper crankset, I believe it is from 2008, for about 115 EUR delivered. My other options are new, alu square tapers from Miche (CPT, Race, Graff), but I hate the 16t jumps between chainrings. LBS has a coach who claims 39/29 is very low even for 18% grades (but he is 65 kg and I am 95 kg), so he insists on a standart crank. While 46/30 Graff is tempting, I might need a triple FD, right? There are affordable Campagnolo Cx 10/11 Power-torque models, but they require tools... So, for a start, looking at those photos, do you think this crankset is in good condition, should I go for it? It took me days to browse thousands of different websites, and my options are down to what I described in the thread. Please, see the photos...
    Funny enough, for the same amout of money as the used square taper Record CT, I can buy a new Centaur Carbon Ultra Torque, but 53/39 (FC9-CE240C). Decisions, decisions... I am a slow, fat cyclist so I won`t feel a difference in stiffness. But how about BB and chainline difference between Record and Centaur cranksets then? After all, I have Record 10 carbon shifters. A brand new Record UT costs twice the price of new Centaur UT...
    Last edited by Fixt00l; 12-30-2019 at 12:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee-an-key View Post
    Using a Shimano grease on a Campy part will result in a new world order, your wheels will only spin one way, your bottom bracket will only turn from 12 oclock to 6 oclock, your headset will only turn left. Big problems. Use Sram and your bike will only roll backwards.

  2. #2
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    I have the latter "A" 11sp and it works great. The only beef is the shifters are no longer rebuildable which is a little disappointing. Not enough to go back to 10.

  3. #3
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Holy wall of text Batm...er...OP. Firstly I would say that any coach that insists that a certain gear combo is fine for you but you're pretty sure it's not low enough is someone you can ignore...especially in this case.
    If you've got 10 speed parts use them. You can easily find the springs and spring retainer to overhaul them.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post

    Hello! Apologies for the long post - I have seen forum members answer quite tricky Campagnolo questions While I am waiting for an European bike shop to find me a NOS Dedacciai carbon frame with BSA (wow, do they even exist?), I need to decide how to source components. I have Record 10 Ultra shifters, and two alloy Chorus 10 medium cage RDs, and a Veloce 13-29 cassette, so I figured out a 10-speed build would be the best in terms of price/performance. And I can buy a set of NOS Chorus 10 Carbon shifters for 210 EUR, for spares. I have another bike with Chorus 9/10 mix, so eventually, I could save all the spares I own for it.
    Why do I need to use the forum then? Well... In my city, LBS are incredibly rude and would make me beg for even simple repairs - I have been denied some. I had been scream at in 3 shops, because I refuse to buy Asian junk (yuck). One even insisted I sell my high-end Italian bike with Chorus, for a no-name Asian frame with Claris, because..."it shifts much better". Having no real time how to learn to do it myself, I try to keep the things simple. For example, on my other bike, a few shops failed to adjust my Chorus 10 CT FD, and the chain would fly from the outside of the carbon cranks and rub - what a disaster... Then, after spending countless hours, I read that one must lower the FD, and voila - it works.
    Long story short...I am a bit hesitant should I go for 10 or 11 speed. While one can find great prices for Potenza, the complaints about how difficult and frequent it is to adjust, and the long lever throw, and the slower shifting kind of put me off. LBS say they service UT cranks easily, even without the original tools, and they use 3rd party chain links to join Campagnolo 10/11 chains. THEY STRONGLY RECOMMEND I STAY WITH 10, AS IT IS EASIER TO ADJUST AND STAY PERFECT. This tells me they are not very good...But within 100 km, no other bike shops.
    I have not yet chosen a chainring combination. I think Square taper is easier to service in most cases, and requires less special tools. I found a 52/39 Record square taper crankset, I believe it is from 2008, for about 115 EUR delivered. My other options are new, alu square tapers from Miche (CPT, Race, Graff), but I hate the 16t jumps between chainrings. LBS has a coach who claims 39/29 is very low even for 18% grades (but he is 65 kg and I am 95 kg), so he insists on a standart crank. While 46/30 Graff is tempting, I might need a triple FD, right? There are affordable Campagnolo Cx 10/11 Power-torque models, but they require tools... So, for a start, looking at those photos, do you think this crankset is in good condition, should I go for it? It took me days to browse thousands of different websites, and my options are down to what I described in the thread. Please, see the photos...
    Funny enough, for the same amout of money as the used square taper Record CT, I can buy a new Centaur Carbon Ultra Torque, but 53/39 (FC9-CE240C). Decisions, decisions... I am a slow, fat cyclist so I won`t feel a difference in stiffness. But how about BB and chainline difference between Record and Centaur cranksets then? After all, I have Record 10 carbon shifters. A brand new Record UT costs twice the price of new Centaur UT...
    What years or parts? Campagnolo had 3 different versions of 10 speed parts (in addition to all the tiers) with different shifter action mechanisms and cable pulls. There's a fair chance the parts you have will not work together.

    I'm guessing the shops told you this....you got rude and then they got rude. And here you are.
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    Well, I spoke to a friend of mine, who is some 25 kg lighter than me, one of the national champions. He said that both too low or too high of a gear make you inadequate, plain and simple.
    I am tempted by the idea to have a FD that works with both standard cranksets. I do not know if there is a Chorus version, but the German shops sell the Veloce FD11 for just 25 EUR, that works with both standard and compacts. But does it have trim, or should I look for a certain Chorus for standart/compact + trim?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee-an-key View Post
    Using a Shimano grease on a Campy part will result in a new world order, your wheels will only spin one way, your bottom bracket will only turn from 12 oclock to 6 oclock, your headset will only turn left. Big problems. Use Sram and your bike will only roll backwards.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    Well, I spoke to a friend of mine, who is some 25 kg lighter than me, one of the national champions. He said that both too low or too high of a gear make you inadequate, plain and simple.
    I am tempted by the idea to have a FD that works with both standard cranksets. I do not know if there is a Chorus version, but the German shops sell the Veloce FD11 for just 25 EUR, that works with both standard and compacts. But does it have trim, or should I look for a certain Chorus for standart/compact + trim?
    11 speed changed the FD spring tension and cable pull (again), at least in the top tier groups.....twice, compared to 10 speed.

    You sound in over your head. Just buy a complete group and spend the money. Your odds of cobbling something together that won't work right are very high--unless you have a Campagnolo certified service tech watching your shopping who has all the not-at-all-written-down parts compatibility memorized.

    Which is exactly why a bike shop recommended you just bust by a Shimano bike. If you need low gearing--Campagnolo isn't it, they have explicitly said they make parts for racing and racers.
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    Thanks, I have a touring bike with cheap shimaNO triple, so I want my Campagnolo bikes. About the crank seals... I have been visiting the same car wash for 10 years, for some strong bike wash, and the Chorus and Centaur square taper BBs never showed any problems. About the whole groupset...I have almost everything in 10 speed, and I do not want to splash 1000 EUR for Chorus 12 and 48-32, where a cassette and chain cost more than 200 EUR. I am not a fan of Powershift either...
    When dealing with third-world sellers, one cannot be rude - there are plenty of sellers that physically attack customers - I am quite serious. Out of 10 bike shops in the city, only two have third party tools for Campagnolo, and not one original. Being in the poorest EU country is difficult. LBS DOES NOT HAVE EVEN BASIC KNOWLEDGE ABOUT CAMPAGNOLO. Here is an example: A former pro racer from another city adjusted my shifters, and LBS was fascinated with the shift action. Then tried to "adjust" it... And guess what, shifting got horrible and chain started to rub my carbon crankset. Quite unprofessional...I told them that and I got yelled at and they tried to force me to "apologize". I think this shows enough that some human beings do not meet basic standards and etiquette.
    As for rudeness... I am one of the most polite customers in my city, as I worked for 5 years as head of department that strictly deals with customer treatment. Having worked on a cruise ship taught me extreme politeness. I often get asked why am I so polite, and if I am a local (no joke). Of course, English is not my first language, so I cannot show much when writing.
    I have no idea about the part model year... But I just went in the basement to check. The Veloce 13-29 cassette is CS9-VLX39, and the Veloce Chain is CN11-VLX. They are new, sealed. I have photographed the shifters - I bought them used, not tried yet, I might stock on some ultra-shift bodies, for spares. The two medium cage RDs looks just like this, here:


    And I think the NOS Chorus 10 shifters are a good deal at 210 EUR, because I have seen much more expensive. Since I have two bikes, I think I should buy them for spares. They look like this:



    Does this FD have trim?

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-...0AAOSwsq1cthRC
    Last edited by Fixt00l; 12-30-2019 at 03:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee-an-key View Post
    Using a Shimano grease on a Campy part will result in a new world order, your wheels will only spin one way, your bottom bracket will only turn from 12 oclock to 6 oclock, your headset will only turn left. Big problems. Use Sram and your bike will only roll backwards.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mackgoo View Post
    I have the latter "A" 11sp and it works great. The only beef is the shifters are no longer rebuildable which is a little disappointing. Not enough to go back to 10.
    They are rebuildable just like 10 speed, you just can't buy "official" parts. You can get the thumb shifters as a part which is what usually corrodes, if you need other parts you can buy new shifter bodies without the levers pretty cheap and then use them as a parts source (or more likely install the new one and use the old one as a parts source). There are online places that do this and sell the individual parts.

    I just rebuilt my 09 Centaur levers (new design) after 10 years of use and they work like new, but I do have spare lever bodies just in case. I actually like that version of Centaur because it is 10 speed but does multishift. 11 speed cassettes have finally come down in price but are still about 50% more expensive than 10 speed for something like Centaur, although higher end Campy 10 speed cassettes are very hard to find now.

    To the OP, do yourself a favor and either go with square taper or Ultratorque. The only problems I had with Square taper Campy BBs was lack of seals on the drive side, but they were easy enough to replace with sealed bearings. My 14 year old Centaur Carbon 48/34 10 speed square tapered crank is still the best spinning crank I have.
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  9. #9
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    Isn't FD trim more a function of the shifter?

  10. #10
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Derailleurs don't have 'trim'...shifters do. I will repeat...the derailleur does NOT have trim, shifter is what controls the derailleur. The derailleur ONLY does what the shifter/cable tell it to do.

    Campy is no different to adjust compared to Shimano or SRAM...the exact same basic principles work for all of them. Each brand has it's own minor differences but there is no magic to Campy.
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  11. #11
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    I solved all of my compatibility problems by selling off all of my 11 speed parts and buying two new Chorus 12 groups the 11-34 cassette and 48/32 cranks. Riding steeps hills and mountain roads in norther Colorado, I've got all the gearing I need. The shifting is better than any of the many Campy Record and Chorus groups I've owned since the mid 90's.

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    Thanks for joining, C-40, it was only a matter of time for you to come by. To be quite honest, I was thinking that Chorus 12 is the first gruppo that actually, effectively replaces the triple crankset on moderately light bikes, for non-loaded riding. The levers and rear mech are around 100 EUR cheaper each, compared to 10s back then. I was tempted that the rear derailleur and the levers are actually alu+composite, not entirely composite. I rarely use the 46/13 on my CX bike that I use for Audax, so 48/11 will do fine. Right now, I have 46-33 crankset on it, for 9 and 10 speed. And I have a touring bike with 24/34/42, for just in case.
    Do the 12s need frequent adjustment? LBS put me off 11 speed for that reason. Since the guy does not trust himself, why should I trust him...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee-an-key View Post
    Using a Shimano grease on a Campy part will result in a new world order, your wheels will only spin one way, your bottom bracket will only turn from 12 oclock to 6 oclock, your headset will only turn left. Big problems. Use Sram and your bike will only roll backwards.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-40 View Post
    I solved all of my compatibility problems by selling off all of my 11 speed parts and buying two new Chorus 12 groups the 11-34 cassette and 48/32 cranks. Riding steeps hills and mountain roads in norther Colorado, I've got all the gearing I need. The shifting is better than any of the many Campy Record and Chorus groups I've owned since the mid 90's.
    I find it hilarious that Campy is now asking many hundreds of dollars for essentially the same crank Nashbar had to beg me to buy for $80 on closeout 14 years ago (it's carbon too!). 48/34 vs 48/32 is a one tooth rear cog difference, and the cassettes they offer still don't have the 8 gear straight block that I so covet. Granted the rear cassette has some serious bailout gears, when I'm pushing 65 I may be convinced to go that route. I ride that crank with a 12-28 (conversion) cassette and I managed to ride up Haleakala just fine.
    Last edited by DrSmile; 01-02-2020 at 07:18 AM.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    Well, I spoke to a friend of mine, who is some 25 kg lighter than me, one of the national champions. He said that both too low or too high of a gear make you inadequate, plain and simple.
    I am tempted by the idea to have a FD that works with both standard cranksets. I do not know if there is a Chorus version, but the German shops sell the Veloce FD11 for just 25 EUR, that works with both standard and compacts. But does it have trim, or should I look for a certain Chorus for standart/compact + trim?
    If your left Ergopower shifter is one of the versions with eleventy billion clicks, you can run anything from a mid '80 Superbe Pro FD (BTDT with Record 8 speed) to the latest Shimano FDs with onboard cable tension adjustment as I'm currently doing with Record 10 shifters and an R8000 derailleur.

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    After visiting the nasty LBS for the fifth time, I was surprised when they showed me the Park Tool kit for Ultra-torque cranks. So I guess I won`t be bothering with the Campagnolo CX ones, that are Power torque. While those are cheap and easy to find...and I like the small jump in the front... Being 100kg and having arthritis is no fun. I might save a bit and buy Chorus 48-32 + 11-34, as one can get the complete groupset in Europe for just 1 000 EUR. I wonder if the cables are the same, as I have a few sets, or are they special for 12 - speed? I also wonder about the cassettes` longevity (If C-40 has managed to wear out one by now...)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee-an-key View Post
    Using a Shimano grease on a Campy part will result in a new world order, your wheels will only spin one way, your bottom bracket will only turn from 12 oclock to 6 oclock, your headset will only turn left. Big problems. Use Sram and your bike will only roll backwards.

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    You want Ultrashift levers which can go five cogs smaller with one button push and have less plastic inside which breaks.

    That means one of
    2009-current 11 speed Chorus or above
    2009-2010 11 speed Athena
    2010 10 speed Centaur or Veloce levers (the 2009 right unit has soft detents)
    2009-2014 Ultrashift levers plus a right 10 speed Centaur or Veloce replacement mechanism.

    The older rounded hood 10 speed levers aren't optimal. The G-Springs are wear items that require periodic replacement, and plastic spring carriers also crack.

    If you do buy them, pickup a lifetime supply of replacement parts in case Campagnolo discontinues them like the pointy hood ergo internals.
    Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 01-29-2020 at 07:34 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    I might stock on some ultra-shift bodies, for spares.

    And I think the NOS Chorus 10 shifters are a good deal at 210 EUR, because I have seen much more expensive. Since I have two bikes, I think I should buy them for spares. They look like this:


    FYI those are 2008 and older ergo levers using G-springs, not the newer Ultrashift design.

    In 2008, IIRC "ultra" meant a coated right index cam.

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    Thanks! I`d buy them only because I have one spare FD, and two spare RDs. I cannot sell them, it would take too much time for less money. I like the G-spring feel more than the new models, but if this is not a reliable option...I do not know how to replace the springs, and I do not have the time or desire to learn. I thought these were very reliable shifters...many users report 40 000, or even 60 000 miles / km before they break? My 9s Chorus with pointy hoods was rebuilt in Campag UK service, so I thought by buying a pair of new shifters, I was set for life. So many km in both pairs of shifters, that I will never come to wear out... My only other option is to save the money and upgrade to Chorus 12, as C-40 said...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee-an-key View Post
    Using a Shimano grease on a Campy part will result in a new world order, your wheels will only spin one way, your bottom bracket will only turn from 12 oclock to 6 oclock, your headset will only turn left. Big problems. Use Sram and your bike will only roll backwards.

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