More Braking Power Needed - Page 2
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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    You may have misunderstood. I was talking about two separate bikes, one with 5600 shifters, the other with 5800 shifters.

    That being said, I did eventually replace the Cane Creek calipers on the bike with 5600 shifters with a set of TRP calipers. Much improved braking.
    Ah.. yes I mis-read your post. I thought you replaced your crane creek caliper brakes with newer 5800 series brakes. If you put 5800 series calipers with 5600 shifters, then you might get that scenario where you created even more leverage.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
    No, I blame Pinarello cause the pull ratio that was designed for the 105 groupset is not matched for the calipers that they put on the bike. It's just plain wrong. The SLR-EV type brake levers are designed to have a certain cable pull ratio that is only matched to their newer calipers. If you put those brake levers on caliper brakes that are not designed for that same pull ratio, you will not have sufficient braking leverage. It like putting a shimano gear shifter with a campagnolo deraileur. It is not designed to work together.
    You need to be more specific when talking about brake pull ratios, there are three in use, if in doubt check the Shimano compatibility charts to see how they stack up and do some searching on TRP brakes from the time the change occurred. They were one of the few to actually publish ratios. The pull ratio changed when Shimano went from 10sp with exposed shift cables (5600/6600/7800) to cables under the bar tape (5700/6700/7900). THAT happened quite some time ago, well before your bike was produced, and corresponded to a pull ratio change of 2.0 to 2.5.
    Most likely, the brakes supplied by Pinarello use a ratio of 2.3 similar to what TRP does to allow for compatibility across all three brands, and I'd hardly say those or others like them don't work well. It's a compromise, but it's not a cause of poor braking. I'd say it's much more likely that they are just cheap/flexy brakes used to keep costs down on a 105 bike.
    Earlier you said that if the pull ratio of the Most brakes was the same as the Shimano brakes then it wouldn't make a difference, that is just plain untrue and easy to demonstrate if you have enough different brakes to try out and compare. Materials and construction/design play a bigger role than you give them credit for.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcb78 View Post
    You need to be more specific when talking about brake pull ratios, there are three in use, if in doubt check the Shimano compatibility charts to see how they stack up and do some searching on TRP brakes from the time the change occurred. They were one of the few to actually publish ratios. The pull ratio changed when Shimano went from 10sp with exposed shift cables (5600/6600/7800) to cables under the bar tape (5700/6700/7900). THAT happened quite some time ago, well before your bike was produced, and corresponded to a pull ratio change of 2.0 to 2.5.
    Most likely, the brakes supplied by Pinarello use a ratio of 2.3 similar to what TRP does to allow for compatibility across all three brands, and I'd hardly say those or others like them don't work well. It's a compromise, but it's not a cause of poor braking. I'd say it's much more likely that they are just cheap/flexy brakes used to keep costs down on a 105 bike.
    Earlier you said that if the pull ratio of the Most brakes was the same as the Shimano brakes then it wouldn't make a difference, that is just plain untrue and easy to demonstrate if you have enough different brakes to try out and compare. Materials and construction/design play a bigger role than you give them credit for.
    Since there isn't any actual published info on the MOst brakes (trps are just an assumption), I went ahead and measured the caliper movement to the wire pull movement and then did the same to my shimano calipers. On the MOst brakes the resultant ratio of the MOst brakes is 0.71 (caliper movement to wire pull). The shimano brake was 0.54.

    Therefore the MOst brake calipers clamp 30% more movement per equivalent wire movement. I'm sure materials and construction do play a role in how a brake feels, but that would be miniscule compared to the leverage ratio that is measured here.

  4. #29
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    Not really, well unless you set the brakes up to grab right away with no travel first. Then you could be masking the issue and not realize it. Shimano STI levers pull a BUNCH of cable right away with less power, and they regress to less travel/more power as the lever reaches the bar. This allows you to run a large pad clearance for wheel deflection without impacting braking performance. Problem is, so many people want instant brake engagement and don't realize it really hurts braking power.
    If you've seen the testing that Fairwheel did on the various brakes, they even demonstrate a similar function built into the higher end brakes (like my EEs). The pull isn't linear and setup really matters for the best braking action, that is to say the ratio isn't constant through the travel.
    I've been on bikes where the owner upgraded the shifters and not the brakes, essentially running the worst combo for braking power and even for me at 210lbs, it was plenty. Not a combo I would want to run, but still able to stop the bike without issue.
    As for brake quality, there are plenty of soft flexy brakes out there that deflect all over the place wasting travel instead of actually squeezing the wheel. I ridden plenty of these combos that were designed to work, and they just felt horrible under hard braking. Go back 10 years when there weren't all these different pull ratios out there and think about how brakes like Promax and Cane Creek compared to a set of Ultegra brakes. They were designed to be a direct replacement, but they weren't even in the same ballpark for performance.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcb78 View Post
    Not really, well unless you set the brakes up to grab right away with no travel first. Then you could be masking the issue and not realize it. Shimano STI levers pull a BUNCH of cable right away with less power, and they regress to less travel/more power as the lever reaches the bar. This allows you to run a large pad clearance for wheel deflection without impacting braking performance. Problem is, so many people want instant brake engagement and don't realize it really hurts braking power.
    If you've seen the testing that Fairwheel did on the various brakes, they even demonstrate a similar function built into the higher end brakes (like my EEs). The pull isn't linear and setup really matters for the best braking action, that is to say the ratio isn't constant through the travel.
    I've been on bikes where the owner upgraded the shifters and not the brakes, essentially running the worst combo for braking power and even for me at 210lbs, it was plenty. Not a combo I would want to run, but still able to stop the bike without issue.
    As for brake quality, there are plenty of soft flexy brakes out there that deflect all over the place wasting travel instead of actually squeezing the wheel. I ridden plenty of these combos that were designed to work, and they just felt horrible under hard braking. Go back 10 years when there weren't all these different pull ratios out there and think about how brakes like Promax and Cane Creek compared to a set of Ultegra brakes. They were designed to be a direct replacement, but they weren't even in the same ballpark for performance.
    That's some good info. I didn't know that the brakes had non linear pull ratios. As to the brake clearance, I didn't set it up such that the braking was immediate as my wife smaller hands don't grab the brakes as well if it engages immediately.

    I don't discount the flexy brakes as a contributor to the poor braking, but I do feel that the ratios are still off. I don't consider my wife as a hard core decender where you need the utmost brakes to modulate and slow yourself down. However even on our regular routes with rolling hills, she was white knuckling it on the decents where she felt the bike was just not safe. Even on the cheapest bike with the cheapest componentry, this shouldn't happen. No matter what price of bike you buy, it should still work.

  6. #31
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    Start with walmart bikes, the brakes are terrible. Add $$$ and everything works right. You are the one to decide where to spend the money, take the responsiblity to make sure the bike is safe.
    You think a hugo is as safe as a ferrari @ 80mph? Didn't think so.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    You think a hugo is as safe as a ferrari @ 80mph? Didn't think so.
    Was the Yugo even capable of getting up to 80mph?? The Yugo is probably much safer since you probably won't be able to start it. The joke used to be that at least the rear window defogger worked which served as a good hand warmer when you had to push it.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    Start with walmart bikes, the brakes are terrible. Add $$$ and everything works right. You are the one to decide where to spend the money, take the responsiblity to make sure the bike is safe.
    You think a hugo is as safe as a ferrari @ 80mph? Didn't think so.
    So you think that everyone needs to spend Ferrari money to expect to be safe and that entry level bikes or cars by well reputable manufactures like Pinarello, Trek, Giant, Specialized are considered unsafe. As a purchaser, I should have known better than to buy an entry level bike from a reputable manufacturer and expected brakes to actually work to be able to stop in normal, non extreme conditions.

    So I'm guessing that the only bikes you own must all cost 10K+ and cars all are in the 200K+ range to be considered responsible correct.

    I'm sorry but I don't subscribe to that line of thinking.

  9. #34
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    Yea, it's too bad those brakes are not good, but I haven't heard others complain about them, but I don't get around much. Most riders use Shim,Sram, or Campy; with good reason I guess. My bikes all have shimano, I don't buy lower level groupo's.
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  10. #35
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by MMsRepBike View Post
    You should buy the 6800 calipers. Or 5800.

    9000, 6800 and 5800 are a technology called SLR-EV. Both the levers and the calipers. Before this generation Shimano was using Super SLR technology which indeed is different. The Most brakes are probably something from Tektro or whatever and certainly are not SLR-EV brakes, they should be removed for best results and replaced with something using the correct technology.

    From that linked article:

    Full disclosure I am fairly new to cycling so please excuse my lack of bike knowledge. I am currently running 105 shifters or "brifters" as I have been recently taught, and they were hand me down's from a friend so I don't know the model (other than 105's) or year of them. I want to convert my caliper brakes to disc brakes and in my shopping for them stumbled across the TRP HY/RD brakes that are listed as being compatible with "all existing cable actuated systems". I reached out to TRP via email and received a wonderful timely response from someone explaining to me about this SLR EV stuff. He went on to say that my 105 shifters will be compatible with the TRP disc brakes based on the SLR EV pull ratio.

    My question is; is this true? Is there even a way to tell that definitively if I don't even know what year or exact 105 model it is?

  11. #36
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    If you have 11-speed 105 shifters, they should work with TRP Spyre or HY/RD.

    Try to find some markings in your shifters, see if they say 5800 or R7000. If you peel back the rubber hood from the handlebar side you should see model number on the side of the shifter.
    Last edited by jetdog9; 09-10-2019 at 10:05 AM.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanHe View Post
    My question is; is this true?
    My question is: why did you post this question in a 3 year old thread? Just post your question as a new thread. Lots of people don't look at threads from 2016.

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