More Braking Power Needed
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  1. #1
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    More Braking Power Needed

    I just purchased a 2015 Pinarello Razha for my wife after she crashed her Giant Liv Avail a couple of months ago. I swapped most of the ultegra components onto the Pinarello except for the brakes as the Giant had disc brakes and the Pinarello has traditional caliper brakes. The main problem she has right now is the amount of effort required for her to brake. Her hands are getting tired squeezing the lever. Of course going from the disc brakes, makes it a unfair comparison. However she has another Felt F75 with Shimano 105 brakes which isn't an issue.

    The pinarello uses their own house brand MOst brakes, which I don't know much about. I first changed the brake pads to some Kool Stop salmons which had a noticeable difference but still not adequate for her. We live in an area with sufficient amount of mountains and hills where we braking is pretty critical.

    I've read that Shimanos have different pull ratios to traditional brakes which makes it a bit harder to brake, albeit still considered satisfactory. I'm sure if I used the brakes, I would not have too much of an issue stopping, however my wife is a smaller stature with smaller hands.

    I'm contemplating on whether or not I should buy a set of ultegra brake calipers, but I'm not sure whether or not that will make a difference. Are there other calipers that have a stronger leverage that I can upgrade her brakes with?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
    I'm contemplating on whether or not I should buy a set of ultegra brake calipers, but I'm not sure whether or not that will make a difference. Are there other calipers that have a stronger leverage that I can upgrade her brakes with?
    You're contemplating?

    How much do calipers cost?

    How important is your wife's safety to you?

    Buy the brakes the levers were made to work with.

    What Ultegra is it? What model? Buy the matching brakes.
    use a torque wrench

  3. #3
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    Reason why I'm contemplating is that if the cable pull ratio of the MOst Brake calipers and the Ultegra calipers are the same, it really won't make any difference.

    The Ultegra is a 6800 series. I'm up in Canada so local cost for calipers are around 140usd for the pair.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
    Reason why I'm contemplating is that if the cable pull ratio of the MOst Brake calipers and the Ultegra calipers are the same, it really won't make any difference.

    The Ultegra is a 6800 series. I'm up in Canada so local cost for calipers are around 140usd for the pair.
    Shimano's pull ratio changed at the shifter, not the caliper. So if your wife's Ultegra shifters are pre-6800, you'd likely see improved braking changing out both the calipers and shifters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ352 View Post
    Shimano's pull ratio changed at the shifter, not the caliper. So if your wife's Ultegra shifters are pre-6800, you'd likely see improved braking changing out both the calipers and shifters.
    I'm a bit confused, so when Shimano changed to 6800 shifters, they didn't change the calipers to suite the added cable pull? As I understand the 6800 shifters pull more cable for equivalent lever movement. This would mean that if you used the older calipers, you would have less mechanical advantage. If Shimano didn't change the caliper with the shifter... they would have a weaker braking system.

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding the post.

    The Pinarello bike came with 105 shifters 5800 series 11sp. I changed to ultegra 6800 11sp shifters. So the pull ratios of the shifters should be the same. It's just the brakes that came with the bike which are MOst brand... that I'm not sure if it's a best match for the shimano levers.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
    I'm a bit confused, so when Shimano changed to 6800 shifters, they didn't change the calipers to suite the added cable pull? As I understand the 6800 shifters pull more cable for equivalent lever movement. This would mean that if you used the older calipers, you would have less mechanical advantage. If Shimano didn't change the caliper with the shifter... they would have a weaker braking system.

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding the post.
    This should help clarify things...

    Art's Cyclery Blog » Ask a Mechanic: Brake Lever and Caliper Cross Compatibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
    The Pinarello bike came with 105 shifters 5800 series 11sp. I changed to ultegra 6800 11sp shifters. So the pull ratios of the shifters should be the same. It's just the brakes that came with the bike which are MOst brand... that I'm not sure if it's a best match for the shimano levers.
    Then all you'd need to replace are the calipers.

  7. #7
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    You should buy the 6800 calipers. Or 5800.

    9000, 6800 and 5800 are a technology called SLR-EV. Both the levers and the calipers. Before this generation Shimano was using Super SLR technology which indeed is different. The Most brakes are probably something from Tektro or whatever and certainly are not SLR-EV brakes, they should be removed for best results and replaced with something using the correct technology.

    From that linked article:

    Because SRAM, Campy, and most aftermarket brakes, such as Ciamillo brakes for example, use the old traditional cable pull ratio, they are unsafe to run with the new style Shimano brake levers.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMsRepBike View Post
    You should buy the 6800 calipers. Or 5800.

    9000, 6800 and 5800 are a technology called SLR-EV. Both the levers and the calipers. Before this generation Shimano was using Super SLR technology which indeed is different. The Most brakes are probably something from Tektro or whatever and certainly are not SLR-EV brakes, they should be removed for best results and replaced with something using the correct technology.

    From that linked article:
    ahh... thank you. It was the MOst brakes that I was questioning to see whether or not it would likely be the traditional caliper leverage mechanical advantage or would it be specifically adapted to the shimano levers. If they are rebranded tektro, I would think the geometry would not have been adapted to the shimanos. The brakes still do work, just that when my wifes hands are not that strong any bit of advantage is needed.

    Are there any brake calipers that have stronger mechanical advantage than the shimanos?

  9. #9
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    Just get the right components that go together, you don't want too much advantage, then you'll have other problems. Get it?
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    Just get the right components that go together, you don't want too much advantage, then you'll have other problems. Get it?
    I understand that there may be clearance issues or that the lever might bottom out. However when my wife is barrelling down the mountain with her hands getting tired trying to keep the braking force on, I get a bit worried. That's where I see such a nice benefit in the disk brakes. You need a lot less effort and can modulate the brakes a lot easier. I'll get the ultegra calipers and see how that performs. I know this is an entry level pinarello, but I figure they could have matched the brakes better.

  11. #11
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    You moved a bunch of stuff over in the OP. Did you move either the shifters or the brakes over? If so, you are the one that caused the problem?
    What components did you move over?
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel
    You moved a bunch of stuff over in the OP. Did you move either the shifters or the brakes over? If so, you are the one that caused the problem?
    What components did you move over?


    Old bike was disc, new bike is calipers... hard to move them...

    He has the answer to his question (6800 calipers).

  13. #13
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    Yes, the new bike came with 105 - 5800 shifters and Pinarellos MOst caliper brakes. All I did was change the 5800 Shifters to 6800 Ultegra shifters that were on the bike she crashed. The pull ratios of both those shifters are the same so I don't think I caused any additional problems with the bike.

    I was just questioning Pinarellos original setup with the Shimano SLR-EV brake pull ratio to the MOst calipers which may not be optimally suited for the shimano brake levers.

  14. #14
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    Well, I would review this situation with the orginal builder/vendor.
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  15. #15
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    I changed the brakes to 6800 Ultegra and my wife is all happy now. She says it's night and day difference from the stock brakes. So long story short, Pinarello, in an attempt to cater to the lower price point bikes, cheaped out on the brakes with their self branded MOst calipers which really sucked. Good thing is the frame is solid. I pretty much changed everything but the frame.

  16. #16
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    Why didn't you buy the more expensive model with Ultegra?
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    Why didn't you buy the more expensive model with Ultegra?
    Got a deal on the bike used(well, new condition), and most of the other 105 components that was on the bike, I had another bike I"m building which could use those components. I just didn't count on the brakes not being a proper match given it came from the factory spec'd.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
    I changed the brakes to 6800 Ultegra and my wife is all happy now. She says it's night and day difference from the stock brakes.
    Happy ending.
    use a torque wrench

  19. #19
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    So long story short, you, in an attempt to cater to the lower price point bikes, cheaped out on the bike and it really sucked. And your trying to blame pinarello?
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
    I changed the brakes to 6800 Ultegra and my wife is all happy now. She says it's night and day difference from the stock brakes. So long story short, Pinarello, in an attempt to cater to the lower price point bikes, cheaped out on the brakes with their self branded MOst calipers which really sucked. Good thing is the frame is solid. I pretty much changed everything but the frame.
    I had an older road bike with Cane Creek brakes. When I bought a new road bike with 5800 brakes, it was like night and day. Since I was used to having to grab hard in order to get sufficient braking, I went into a skid the first time I used the brakes on the new bike! It took some time to get used to, but he modulation on the latest generation Shimano 5800/6800/9000 rim brakes is excellent!
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I had an older road bike with Cane Creek brakes. When I bought a new road bike with 5800 brakes, it was like night and day. Since I was used to having to grab hard in order to get sufficient braking, I went into a skid the first time I used the brakes on the new bike! It took some time to get used to, but he modulation on the latest generation Shimano 5800/6800/9000 rim brakes is excellent!
    I just built up a new bike with Di2 Ultegra, after riding multiple Campy bikes (from Athena to Record) and a disc brake bike.

    I am amazed at the modulation and power of the 5800/6800/9000 rim brakes. In the dry they are really closer to discs than to older rim brakes (and I never had any complaints about my campy brakes).

  22. #22
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    EEbrake calipers are more powerful by a significant amount.

    Is she on carbon rims? If so, there is nothing that will work well in the rain or snow melt short of buying replacements every 5 rides or so.

    Maybe it's time to replace her current bike with something minus the antiquated brake system?
    Quote Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
    I just purchased a 2015 Pinarello Razha for my wife after she crashed her Giant Liv Avail a couple of months ago. I swapped most of the ultegra components onto the Pinarello except for the brakes as the Giant had disc brakes and the Pinarello has traditional caliper brakes. The main problem she has right now is the amount of effort required for her to brake. Her hands are getting tired squeezing the lever. Of course going from the disc brakes, makes it a unfair comparison. However she has another Felt F75 with Shimano 105 brakes which isn't an issue.

    The pinarello uses their own house brand MOst brakes, which I don't know much about. I first changed the brake pads to some Kool Stop salmons which had a noticeable difference but still not adequate for her. We live in an area with sufficient amount of mountains and hills where we braking is pretty critical.

    I've read that Shimanos have different pull ratios to traditional brakes which makes it a bit harder to brake, albeit still considered satisfactory. I'm sure if I used the brakes, I would not have too much of an issue stopping, however my wife is a smaller stature with smaller hands.

    I'm contemplating on whether or not I should buy a set of ultegra brake calipers, but I'm not sure whether or not that will make a difference. Are there other calipers that have a stronger leverage that I can upgrade her brakes with?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    So long story short, you, in an attempt to cater to the lower price point bikes, cheaped out on the bike and it really sucked. And your trying to blame pinarello?
    No, I blame Pinarello cause the pull ratio that was designed for the 105 groupset is not matched for the calipers that they put on the bike. It's just plain wrong. The SLR-EV type brake levers are designed to have a certain cable pull ratio that is only matched to their newer calipers. If you put those brake levers on caliper brakes that are not designed for that same pull ratio, you will not have sufficient braking leverage. It like putting a shimano gear shifter with a campagnolo deraileur. It is not designed to work together.

    Pinarello in sourcing their own branded MOst Brakes should have known better than to mismatch brakes that are not compatible with the levers. It doesn't matter if the bike is cheap or expensive, it should be designed to work.
    Last edited by Red90; 06-20-2016 at 08:51 AM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I had an older road bike with Cane Creek brakes. When I bought a new road bike with 5800 brakes, it was like night and day. Since I was used to having to grab hard in order to get sufficient braking, I went into a skid the first time I used the brakes on the new bike! It took some time to get used to, but he modulation on the latest generation Shimano 5800/6800/9000 rim brakes is excellent!
    Depending on which brake/shifter you have, you may have done the opposite and created even more braking leverage than what shimano had designed those brakes for. If you have the older non SLR-EV type brakes.. ie 5600, 6600 series, Campy or SRAM levers, and you matched it up with 5800,6800,9000 series brakes, you will create even more braking leverage.

    The downside of that match-up is you may have not have enough room to pull on your brake lever. Your wheel needs to be perfectly true and have your brake clearance very close. When it works, you will have awesome modulation and braking power, however it can be dangerous as well if you can't pull enough cable to clamp onto your rims.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
    Depending on which brake/shifter you have, you may have done the opposite and created even more braking leverage than what shimano had designed those brakes for. If you have the older non SLR-EV type brakes.. ie 5600, 6600 series, Campy or SRAM levers, and you matched it up with 5800,6800,9000 series brakes, you will create even more braking leverage.

    The downside of that match-up is you may have not have enough room to pull on your brake lever. Your wheel needs to be perfectly true and have your brake clearance very close. When it works, you will have awesome modulation and braking power, however it can be dangerous as well if you can't pull enough cable to clamp onto your rims.
    You may have misunderstood. I was talking about two separate bikes, one with 5600 shifters, the other with 5800 shifters.

    That being said, I did eventually replace the Cane Creek calipers on the bike with 5600 shifters with a set of TRP calipers. Much improved braking.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



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