MTB 12-speed's here; How Long 'Til Road 12-spd, 135mm spacing?
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  1. #1
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    MTB 12-speed's here; How Long 'Til Road 12-spd, 135mm spacing?

    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

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  2. #2
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    If it requires changing the dropout width, its not worth it.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    If it requires changing the dropout width, its not worth it.
    Perhaps, but I get the distinct feeling that the Big Three component makers aren't going to listen to us on any of that.

    Also get the distinct feeling that 12-speed and 135mm dropout spacing for road, standard, is a question of 'When', not 'If'.

    I just wonder how wacky it'll get in the end before customers cry en masse, "Enough!"... 17-speed or some crap like that?

    While some sniffling tech-addict then whines that his dream of an 11-32 mega-range straight block is now dead.
    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    Perhaps, but I get the distinct feeling that the Big Three component makers aren't going to listen to us on any of that.

    Also get the distinct feeling that 12-speed and 135mm dropout spacing for road, standard, is a question of 'When', not 'If'.

    I just wonder how wacky it'll get in the end before customers cry en masse, "Enough!"... 17-speed or some crap like that?

    While some sniffling tech-addict then whines that his dream of an 11-32 mega-range straight block is now dead.
    All the effort engineers are wasting working on 12 speed is just delaying the time until we get flying cars.

    Seriously, is there anybody out there that's thinks adding another gear on the back is going to be nirvana? You may be right that's coming whether we asked for it or not

  5. #5
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    Good article on 135mm spacing:

    Tech Breakdown: How 135mm Rear Hub Spacing Affects Road Bike Chainline & Shifting - Bikerumor


    Complete with nifty-ass chart :

    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    Perhaps, but I get the distinct feeling that the Big Three component makers aren't going to listen to us on any of that.

    Also get the distinct feeling that 12-speed and 135mm dropout spacing for road, standard, is a question of 'When', not 'If'.

    I just wonder how wacky it'll get in the end before customers cry en masse, "Enough!"... 17-speed or some crap like that?

    While some sniffling tech-addict then whines that his dream of an 11-32 mega-range straight block is now dead.
    Time for continuously variable transmission.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Time for continuously variable transmission.
    I believe there are altered several hub-based CVTs available. They suffer from much lower efficiency and seem to be marketed towards more casual cyclists that are afraid of changing gears

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    I believe there are altered several hub-based CVTs available. They suffer from much lower efficiency and seem to be marketed towards more casual cyclists that are afraid of changing gears
    They're also quite heavy, last I checked.
    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    They're also quite heavy, last I checked.
    And a cassette and freehub-body assembly and derailleur isn't? Those three parts alone are over 1lb of weight.

    Nevermind what it does to screwup wheel strength due to dishing.

  10. #10
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    Years ago, a guy at Hamilton Beach told me about the "blender wars".... "We - Hamilton Beach, Oster, Sunbeam, Black and Decker - couldn't come up with any significant competitive advantage. All the blenders worked fine. So, we started adding speeds. 3 became 4, then 5... soon we had 12 and 14 speed blenders... Consumers figured 'Hey, I get two more speeds for the same money'"

    But, we're smarter, more educated than the typical $29 blender buyer... right?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    And a cassette and freehub-body assembly and derailleur isn't? Those three parts alone are over 1lb of weight.
    Bike CVT systems (such as NuVinci) have come down in weight, but are still around 5 1/2 lbs, last I checked.

    Ans as Dave noted, the effeciencies of same are not great... somewhere in the 78 to 86 percent range, whereas conventional chain drivetains are generally in the 90s.

    Then there's hub gears, but they too are not as efficient as good ol' boring chain drives. So we may be stuck in sprocketland for a looooong time to come.








    .
    Last edited by SystemShock; 07-12-2016 at 02:07 PM.
    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    Seriously, is there anybody out there that's thinks adding another gear on the back is going to be nirvana? You may be right that's coming whether we asked for it or not
    I think the same argument was made about going from 5 to 6, 6 to 7, 7 to 8, 8 to 9, 9 to 10, and 10 to 11. Just saying.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Irons View Post
    I think the same argument was made about going from 5 to 6, 6 to 7, 7 to 8, 8 to 9, 9 to 10, and 10 to 11.

    Just saying.
    Yup, but it's also fair to say that diminishing returns have set in.

    And there are certainly drawbacks, such as chainline, chain life, heels hitting stays, equipment incompatibilities, rear wheel strength and durability, etc.

    At some point, 'one more cog' and ever wider dropout spacing stops being worth it. I think we're almost there.
    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldZaskar View Post
    Years ago, a guy at Hamilton Beach told me about the "blender wars".... "We - Hamilton Beach, Oster, Sunbeam, Black and Decker - couldn't come up with any significant competitive advantage. All the blenders worked fine. So, we started adding speeds. 3 became 4, then 5... soon we had 12 and 14 speed blenders... Consumers figured 'Hey, I get two more speeds for the same money'"

    But, we're smarter, more educated than the typical $29 blender buyer... right?
    LOL. We all like to think we're smart, but this is the avg person vs marketing:


    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


  15. #15
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    Prescient thread from 2016 is prescient.

    Now... can we just stop at 12 speeds, please? Pretty please?
    .
    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    Prescient thread from 2016 is prescient.

    Now... can we just stop at 12 speeds, please? Pretty please?
    .
    Ha! We (and our kids) will be coming back to laugh at that for years to come. No. No, we can't stop at 12. We'll stop when we don't need gears - when some other drive train replaces the chain/cog system. I mean, just look at cars - I just bought a car with a 10-speed automatic. And that already seems antiquated.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    Prescient thread from 2016 is prescient.

    Now... can we just stop at 12 speeds, please? Pretty please?
    .
    Rohloff's SpeedHub is 14-speed with a very linear progression, for an IGH...honestly about 11s we should just go IGH, Chains are stupid narrow and short lived.

    https://www.rohloff.de/en/products/speedhub/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4UpwoDmOb4
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldZaskar View Post
    Ha! We (and our kids) will be coming back to laugh at that for years to come. No. No, we can't stop at 12. We'll stop when we don't need gears - when some other drive train replaces the chain/cog system. I mean, just look at cars - I just bought a car with a 10-speed automatic. And that already seems antiquated.
    While at the same time 1x is also all the rage (okay, the rage is exaggerated but you get the point). Once they figure all suckers have been had with that it'll be time to "invent" a triple.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Rohloff's SpeedHub is 14-speed with a very linear progression, for an IGH...honestly about 11s we should just go IGH, Chains are stupid narrow and short lived.

    https://www.rohloff.de/en/products/speedhub/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4UpwoDmOb4
    Rohloffs are cool, and pretty efficient for IGHs... independent tests put them at 88-92%, depending on gear. But that’s still not as good as chain-derailleur drivetrains, which typically come in at 93-98%.

    That said, there are certainly compensating advantages that’d make some riders choose a good IGH even so.
    .
    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Rohloff's SpeedHub is 14-speed with a very linear progression, for an IGH...honestly about 11s we should just go IGH, Chains are stupid narrow and short lived.
    That said, I haven’t broken a 12 speed chain in three years, and I am finding wear to be similar. Roughly 100,000 feet of climbing on the Mt. bike per year. Better track record than 11 (and of course) 10, which was the weakest for some reason.

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