Shimano shifter eats another rear cable.............. - Page 4
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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfdemicco View Post
    Is the spool size smaller in STI shifters than in downtube or barcon shifters?

    Are Campy or SRAM integrated shifters any better with respect to breaking cables?
    Yes and yes. That is the issue with this Shimano STI shifter design. It twists the cable into a smaller "spool" than the others you mention. I am no engineer, but I know enough about metal fatigue to know that if you bend a paper clip back and forth enough times, it will break. Will it take the same number of times to break that paper clip if you pull the two ends the same number of times? My guess is it would take a tremendously greater amount of force and cycles.
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  2. #77
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    Shimano shifter eats another rear cable..............

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Not sure why you'd continue to argue after essentially not agreeing with your self either.
    Or why you continue to ignore the fact I have pointed out that the area that frays does not get most of stress from tying to get into a gear that's not there because it's already wound on to the spool.
    I'm not disagreeing with myself. Your comparison to a fishing reel is not correct because the cable does not wrap fully around the spool. See Tig's comment above.

    None of you guys know what's really going on inside the shifter (and neither do I for that matter) because none of you have disassembled one to figure out the cable path, so you're all just guessing.

    Let's just agree to disagree.
    Last edited by mfdemicco; 3 Weeks Ago at 06:06 AM.

  3. #78
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfdemicco View Post
    None of you guys know what's really going on inside the shifter (and neither do I for that matter) because none of you have disassembled one to figure out the cable path, so you're all just guessing.
    Uhhh no. Wrong. Some of us have actually disassembled them.
    We're not guessing. This is a known issue.

    YOU are the only one guessing theories about something you don't know about.

    https://www.velonews.com/gear/road-g...g-term-review/
    The problem centers on the cable routing as it exits the shifter. A small plastic plug slots into the shifter around the exiting cable, forcing the cable into a tight bend.

    The fix? Shimano sent us new cables, with an updated outer coating. The cable that failed on us was from the first generation of 9000. Shimano representatives also recommended adding a bit of the companyís grease on that tight corner.

    FFS even Shimano knows it's a problem.

    Let's just agree to disagree.
    Everyone agrees you're disagreeing about something you admit you're just guessing at.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    Uhhh no. Wrong. Some of us have actually disassembled them.
    We're not guessing. This is a known issue.

    YOU are the only one guessing theories about something you don't know about.

    https://www.velonews.com/gear/road-g...g-term-review/
    The problem centers on the cable routing as it exits the shifter. A small plastic plug slots into the shifter around the exiting cable, forcing the cable into a tight bend.

    The fix? Shimano sent us new cables, with an updated outer coating. The cable that failed on us was from the first generation of 9000. Shimano representatives also recommended adding a bit of the companyís grease on that tight corner.

    FFS even Shimano knows it's a problem.

    Everyone agrees you're disagreeing about something you admit you're just guessing at.
    So now it's where the cable where it exits the shifter instead of the spool diameter, like you've been saying all along. You also say say force has no effect on cable fatigue and that it's solely the sheave diameter. Those equations I posted refute that. You're like "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up." You must be one of those dumb **** engineers that just looks stuff up in tables. You haven't disassembled one of these shifters. You're just blowing more smoke. Enough with the the abrasive statements Tig, you aren't as smart as you think you are.

  5. #80
    'brifter' is f'ing stupid
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    I've 'disassembled' (all you're really doing is removing the 2 piece bottom cover) and seen inside a ton of them. The majority of the frayed/broken cables I've seen start fraying just inside the entrance to the shifter and also around the 'spool'. The cable moves enough as it travels in and out of the shifter that it could be the same spot. It's very easy to see w/ the covers off, that's how you remove the broken end. It's definitely a fatigue problem and not a force problem...and it's definitely something that just started happening w/ the 9000-9100 generation shifters. It's been happening for years and years. It happens w/ the old Campy Ergo style shifters as well, when the cable frays it stabs your thumb when you actuate the thumb button. I have never seen it happen w/ SRAM double tap shifters but I suppose it could eventually.
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  6. #81
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfdemicco View Post
    So now it's where the cable where it exits the shifter instead of the spool diameter, like you've been saying all along.
    Stop lying. I never said that. I said it happens "From the tight bend radius... IN the shifter" NOT at the cam/spool. I said you never see it happen there.

    You also say say force has no effect on cable fatigue and that it's solely the sheave diameter.
    Stop F'n lying. I never said that either.
    In this instance of shimano shifter fraying, it's not a force issue.


    Those equations I posted refute that. You're like "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up." You must be one of those dumb **** engineers that just looks stuff up in tables.
    You looked up a formula and you call me a dumb engineer who looks stuff up in tables.

    Nothing like a lying hypocrite.

    I'm one of those "dumb **** engineers" that designs, builds, prototypes, tests, and produces sh!t that you use in your everyday life.
    But you be you and look up equations.

    You haven't disassembled one of these shifters.
    Liar liar pants on fire.


    Enough with the the abrasive statements Tig,
    Yet you're the one calling me a dumb ****

    And my name isn't Tig. Get it right Mr. Smarty pants.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    I've 'disassembled' (all you're really doing is removing the 2 piece bottom cover) and seen inside a ton of them. The majority of the frayed/broken cables I've seen start fraying just inside the entrance to the shifter and also around the 'spool'. The cable moves enough as it travels in and out of the shifter that it could be the same spot. It's very easy to see w/ the covers off, that's how you remove the broken end. It's definitely a fatigue problem and not a force problem...and it's definitely something that just started happening w/ the 9000-9100 generation shifters. It's been happening for years and years. It happens w/ the old Campy Ergo style shifters as well, when the cable frays it stabs your thumb when you actuate the thumb button. I have never seen it happen w/ SRAM double tap shifters but I suppose it could eventually.
    I agree with everything you say here except for one thing. The problem started with 5700/6700/7900, not 5800/6800/9000.

    As far as it "eventually" happening with SRAM, well eventually many things happen. If a shifter regularly eats a cable every 10K miles or so, I think that's a non-issue. Eating a cable every 2000 miles is premature and at 800 miles is totally absurd.
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    There is no 'spool'. It's not like a winch wrapping cable around a spool. The total cable pull on a shifter is only about ĹĒ. Itís not wrapping anything. Itís just pulled on a cam. That cam is not the tightest bend. The tightest bend is in the shifter, where itís sliding over a tight bend.
    You're picking but what ever, so lets call it a cam if you like. The cam has a diameter that is narrower than the shifter, and I don't think the turn it makes going into the shifter is tighter than that, but admittedly I haven't measured the radius, have you? There is friction at the radius going into the shifter and that's where I load it up with lube when I had mechanical shifting and it definitely extended the life. So back to my question, if the bend is too tight, is the bend wider going into a sram or campy shifter or is the 'cam' wider diameter?
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  9. #84
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    Is this you, mfdemicco?

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    bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Is this you, mfdemicco?

    No, but this reminds me of you.


  11. #86
    'brifter' is f'ing stupid
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    There is no 'spool'. It's not like a winch wrapping cable around a spool. The total cable pull on a shifter is only about ĹĒ. Itís not wrapping anything. Itís just pulled on a cam. That cam is not the tightest bend. The tightest bend is in the shifter, where itís sliding over a tight bend.
    I would call it a spool, it's a cylindrical piece that a cable wraps around. Granted it's only about a half a turn but it more or less meets the definition of the word. For some reason I want to say Shimano calls it the 'shift drum' but I don't remember for sure. Anyway, it's cylindrical, it's got a groove for the cable and a spot for the cable head. It rotates when you shift. If someone wants to call it a spool, that works for me. Much better than calling a shifter a 'b......'.
    #promechaniclife

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfdemicco View Post
    No, but this reminds me of you.

    Can't be. I'm nowhere near that flexible.
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    bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    I'm one of those "dumb **** engineers" that designs, builds, prototypes, tests, and produces sh!t that you use in your everyday life.
    So it is people like you that screwed up this shifter design!!!!!
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  14. #89
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    I would call it a spool, it's a cylindrical piece that a cable wraps around. Granted it's only about a half a turn but it more or less meets the definition of the word. For some reason I want to say Shimano calls it the 'shift drum' but I don't remember for sure. Anyway, it's cylindrical, it's got a groove for the cable and a spot for the cable head. It rotates when you shift. If someone wants to call it a spool, that works for me. Much better than calling a shifter a 'b......'.
    Yea I thought Shimano called it a drum too.
    Drum, spool, cam, it's semantics, it's a grasp to call it a spool but not really my point. It doesn't look like this inside:



    It looks pretty much like a friction shifter turned sideways.



    Quote Originally Posted by Srode
    So back to my question, if the bend is too tight, is the bend wider going into a sram or campy shifter or is the 'cam' wider diameter?
    I dunno. Maybe CX can answer that. I've never seen Campy. And my last Sram bike never had a cable issue, nor have I ever seen a frayed cable on anyone's Sram bike, so I never really payed attention. The internal routing in Sram is different. But the drum/spool/cam is virtually identical.

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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    So it is people like you that screwed up this shifter design!!!!!
    Yea but... I would've at least made it easy to disassemble the shifter to get out the F'd up cable.
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  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    Yea but... I would've at least made it easy to disassemble the shifter to get out the F'd up cable.
    Spoken like a true engineer - pointing fingers at other engineers. The trouble is always at the other end.
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