Swapping wheels with Di2 - have to have the same cassette?
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    Swapping wheels with Di2 - have to have the same cassette?

    I have a Parlee Chebacco with two wheelsets. One is for gravel/off-road and has an Ultegra 11-34t cassette. The other wheelset is for asphalt and has an Ultegra 11-30 cassette. Shifting works PERFECTLY with the Ultegra 11-34, but is uncooperative with the Ultegra 11-30. When in the middle of the cassette, a click either direction is often met with nothing. I hear the rear derailleur move, but no shift. If i click it again, it goes 2 gears. This happens in both directions, up or down the cassette.

    The setting in the Di2 Sensor screen on my Garmin was "Automatic", but I changed it manually. No improvement.

    I have a Ultegra 11-32, so I tried that, and it doesn't shift well either. And then I tried a DuraAce 11-30 and it didn't shift well.

    I put the 11-34 on the other wheelset and it works perfectly. So it's not the wheel, it is definitely something about the cassette.

    Is it the B screw adjustment? Have others had success with the "Automatic"? or is the manual mode more likely to work better?

    I would very much prefer to have the tighter shifting of the 11-30 and have the option for putting the DA on to save a few grams when that is important to me. But the shifting is unacceptable.

    Does Di2 require having the same tooth count to shift well when swapping wheels?

  2. #2
    'brifter' is f'ing stupid
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    There is no such thing as 'automatic' Di2 adjustment. It doesn't exist. The cogs on your cassettes are obviously in slightly different places relative to one another and you're going to have to adjust when swapping.

    ETA: No, Di2 doesn't require the same cog sizes, but the cogs would have to be in the same place laterally for things to work perfectly. Going from a 30 to a 34 you might need to make a small b-tension adjustment...maybe not, depends on a couple of things. It's just a derailleur, like any other derailleur. It just happens to have an electric motor moving it.
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    Just get .5mm cassette spacers. Put both wheels in to see which is naturally sitting further outward. Put spacer (s) behind the other one to move it out to the same location. Job done. Can do it with your discs as well, if needed. No derailleur adjustments needed.

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    I'll add, I did this with different cassettes and adjusted b-screw to the larger one, obviously. A 12_30 vs 12_34 might be difficult for some set ups, but I bet a half turn off the b screw world do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by multirider View Post
    When in the middle of the cassette, a click either direction is often met with nothing. I hear the rear derailleur move, but no shift. If i click it again, it goes 2 gears. This happens in both directions, up or down the cassette.

    The setting in the Di2 Sensor screen on my Garmin was "Automatic", but I changed it manually. No improvement.

    I have a Ultegra 11-32, so I tried that, and it doesn't shift well either. And then I tried a DuraAce 11-30 and it didn't shift well.

    I put the 11-34 on the other wheelset and it works perfectly. So it's not the wheel, it is definitely something about the cassette.

    Is it the B screw adjustment? Have others had success with the "Automatic"? or is the manual mode more likely to work better?

    Does Di2 require having the same tooth count to shift well when swapping wheels?
    Automatic and Manual Mode settings have nothing to do with the DR position relative to the cogs, those are shifting modes not adjustments.

    Sounds to me like you have the B screw too tight for the smaller cassettes, but a 2 tooth difference isn't much. The farther the DR is from the cog the harder it is to force the chain to the right position for a shift due to side play in the chain.
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    Try using the spacers from the hub that works okay with the cogs from the other one.


    I had the same issue with mechanical. I knew one of my spacers was bent (came that way in the mail) but I thought the lock ring pressure would straighten it out. Either that didn't work or it was otherwise defective also. Either way taking spacers from a hub that worked fine did the trick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by multirider View Post

    The setting in the Di2 Sensor screen on my Garmin was "Automatic", but I changed it manually. No improvement.

    Have others had success with the "Automatic"? or is the manual mode more likely to work better?
    "Automatic"? Do you mean "Syncro"? Syncro Shift has nothing to do with RD tuning.
    https://di2center.com/2019/02/16/syn...-does-it-work/
    According to Shimano; “Synchronized Shift is a function that automatically shifts the front derailleur when the rear derailleur is shifted, allowing the derailleurs to work together efficiently.” This means that you would never manually have to shift the front derailleur anymore. The system will do it for you when it thinks the time is right.


    Does Di2 require having the same tooth count to shift well when swapping wheels?
    No. I have 3 bikes with Di2. Each has at least 2 wheelsets. With various cassettes ranging from 28-34. I can swap wheels with no adjustments to the RD on any bike.
    But I'm lucky.


    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    ETA: No, Di2 doesn't require the same cog sizes, but the cogs would have to be in the same place laterally for things to work perfectly. Going from a 30 to a 34 you might need to make a small b-tension adjustment...maybe not, depends on a couple of things. It's just a derailleur, like any other derailleur. It just happens to have an electric motor moving it.
    Yup. It's the case for any RD. Of any brand. Mechanical or electric.
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    It is literally so simple and easy to adj the RD on Di2. Why bother with putting washers on the cassette, unless your changing back and forth continually.
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    Question

    I don't have much to contribute to this thread other than I'm a Di2-newb this year and have the same question as the OP. I'm hoping to have a road wheel set and a trail wheel set, but I also put my bike on a smart trainer which is therefore yet a 3rd possible cassette size. So far, I've ordered a cassette for my trainer that matches what is on my bike in terms of gearing so Zwift will feel more like "real life".

    I have noticed in Shimano's e-Tube app that you can specify the size of your chain rings and cassette, which I'm assuming is so Di2 can make 'intelligent' choices when setting it to semi or full-synchro mode. As such, if you have different wheel sets and different cassettes, technically you'll have to do some fidgeting with Di2 so it knows what gear ratios you have.

    Is there such thing as different gear "profiles" in Di2 to make it easier to let it know you've switched your wheel set? That'd be sweet if Di2 could "remember" it's configuration and trimming based on a profile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoorInRichfield View Post
    Is there such thing as different gear "profiles" in Di2 to make it easier to let it know you've switched your wheel set? That'd be sweet if Di2 could "remember" it's configuration and trimming based on a profile.
    It's easy to change the gear from your garmin screen, not sure how / if that changes the auto shift points in your Di2 though. I would guess it will since you can change shift modes from the Garmin as well. You can use your phone to do it though, but not aware of anything that will do it easier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoorInRichfield View Post
    I have noticed in Shimano's e-Tube app that you can specify the size of your chain rings and cassette, which I'm assuming is so Di2 can make 'intelligent' choices when setting it to semi or full-synchro mode. As such, if you have different wheel sets and different cassettes, technically you'll have to do some fidgeting with Di2 so it knows what gear ratios you have.
    It doesn't make intelligent choices. You have to define it in the e-Tube. And re-define it when changing cassettes.
    This website is pretty awesome at breaking down everything Di2
    di2center.com/2019/04/05/how-to-customise-synchronized-shift-settings/


    Is there such thing as different gear "profiles" in Di2 to make it easier to let it know you've switched your wheel set? That'd be sweet if Di2 could "remember" it's configuration and trimming based on a profile.
    I think in the e-Tube software there is. I don't think there's a method to switch on the fly.


    I've only ever used semi-sync. I like having control when the FD shifts. I tried full sync, it works quite well for casual riding and 90% of the time. But there were times when it'd shift when I wished it wouldn't. This is especially problematic in hilly areas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoorInRichfield View Post
    I don't have much to contribute to this thread other than I'm a Di2-newb this year and have the same question as the OP. I'm hoping to have a road wheel set and a trail wheel set, but I also put my bike on a smart trainer which is therefore yet a 3rd possible cassette size. So far, I've ordered a cassette for my trainer that matches what is on my bike in terms of gearing so Zwift will feel more like "real life".

    I have noticed in Shimano's e-Tube app that you can specify the size of your chain rings and cassette, which I'm assuming is so Di2 can make 'intelligent' choices when setting it to semi or full-synchro mode. As such, if you have different wheel sets and different cassettes, technically you'll have to do some fidgeting with Di2 so it knows what gear ratios you have.

    Is there such thing as different gear "profiles" in Di2 to make it easier to let it know you've switched your wheel set? That'd be sweet if Di2 could "remember" it's configuration and trimming based on a profile.
    The gears settings in e-tube do very little for the consumer. Basically all they serve to do is:

    A) Provide gears info to a Wahoo or Garmin.

    B) Change the gear cross-chain lockouts. AKA nannyism. Some cranks/cassettes have more/less forbidden cross-chains.


    The gear settings in e-tube do nothing to alter the triming or anything else the derailleurs do. Seriously. Put your bike on the stand and change the software gears in e-tube (the wrongest most inaccurate ones in the list even) and back and forth and shift it. The only difference you'll see is which cross-chains are allowed. No degradation/altering of shifting performance--because changing the software tooth-counts does nothing to how the derailleurs do their job.
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  13. #13
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    The gears settings in e-tube do very little for the consumer. Basically all they serve to do is:

    A) Provide gears info to a Wahoo or Garmin.

    B) Change the gear cross-chain lockouts. AKA nannyism. Some cranks/cassettes have more/less forbidden cross-chains.


    The gear settings in e-tube do nothing to alter the triming or anything else the derailleurs do. Seriously. Put your bike on the stand and change the software gears in e-tube (the wrongest most inaccurate ones in the list even) and back and forth and shift it. The only difference you'll see is which cross-chains are allowed. No degradation/altering of shifting performance--because changing the software tooth-counts does nothing to how the derailleurs do their job.
    You have to configure it, not just change the gears.


    Let’s follow the green arrow in the image above, starting all the way at the top left. When we’re in the lightest gear (28T/34T) and we shift up we’ll eventually get to 14T/34T with a gear ratio of 2.43. If we shift up one more time the front derailleur will change chainring and the rear derailleur will shift down to arrive at 19T/50T (2.63).

    Note that you can click either of the green cells in order to change the point at which the system shifts with which gear. We could make the system shift from 2.43 to 2.94 for example. This is why it’s important to set the correct chainring and cassette on the previous page – it guarantees that the gear ratios you’re setting up actually match the ones on your bike. You can customise both the blue and green arrows, of course!
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    You have to configure it, not just change the gears.


    Let’s follow the green arrow in the image above, starting all the way at the top left. When we’re in the lightest gear (28T/34T) and we shift up we’ll eventually get to 14T/34T with a gear ratio of 2.43. If we shift up one more time the front derailleur will change chainring and the rear derailleur will shift down to arrive at 19T/50T (2.63).

    Note that you can click either of the green cells in order to change the point at which the system shifts with which gear. We could make the system shift from 2.43 to 2.94 for example. This is why it’s important to set the correct chainring and cassette on the previous page – it guarantees that the gear ratios you’re setting up actually match the ones on your bike. You can customise both the blue and green arrows, of course!
    The above only matters in the context of synchronized shifting....

    I honestly never relied on that graphic in the desktop app. Because it was wrong for my usage. Because for 7 years (until GRX was a thing) Shimano Di2 never even had their OWN 46/36 CX crankset that they themselves sold retail as a crankset pre-set. And it wasn't until GRX that Shimano finally admitted that cranksets in their road products had cranksets lower-geared than 50/34. With Shimano also admitting 1X systems exist, and actually selling them, I haven't checked to see if Di2's app admits 1X chainrings other than the ones they sell exist.

    BTW the graphic above only applies to the Windows Di2 app, the smartphone app doesn't have ratios displayed.


    The cross-chain lockouts are arbitrary, they're based solely on your crankset. Pick a cassette arbitrarily, the lockouts don't change...of course you can turn off the gear minder, granted.
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    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    The above only matters in the context of synchronized shifting....
    Yes, Full Sync (S2). Semi sync has no control of the FD (other than trimming).
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    There is no such thing as 'automatic' Di2 adjustment. It doesn't exist. The cogs on your cassettes are obviously in slightly different places relative to one another and you're going to have to adjust when swapping.

    ETA: No, Di2 doesn't require the same cog sizes, but the cogs would have to be in the same place laterally for things to work perfectly. Going from a 30 to a 34 you might need to make a small b-tension adjustment...maybe not, depends on a couple of things. It's just a derailleur, like any other derailleur. It just happens to have an electric motor moving it.
    Your statement is incorrect. There is an "Automatic" option for detecting the size of the rear cassette. See attached pictures.

    Di2 - Garmin screen for gearing 2 Automatic.jpgDi2 - Garmin screen for gearing 1.jpgDi2 - Garmin screen for gearing 3 rear options.jpg

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    My reference was to the automatic detection of the cassette size, not the shift mode.

    It seemed to me that the 11-32 would work since 2 teeth is not much difference from the 11-34. It shifts the largest and smallest gears on the cassette okay (not great, certainly not as smoothly as the 11-34), the issues are in the middle of the cassette and happen going both up and down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    Just get .5mm cassette spacers. Put both wheels in to see which is naturally sitting further outward. Put spacer (s) behind the other one to move it out to the same location. Job done. Can do it with your discs as well, if needed. No derailleur adjustments needed.

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
    Since it shifts okay in the top few gears and bottom few gears, it doesn't seem like it is an issue with the alignment of the cassette.

  19. #19
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    ah... are you using the same # of gears on both bikes? If so, check your RD alignment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    The gears settings in e-tube do very little for the consumer. Basically all they serve to do is:

    A) Provide gears info to a Wahoo or Garmin.

    B) Change the gear cross-chain lockouts. AKA nannyism. Some cranks/cassettes have more/less forbidden cross-chains.


    The gear settings in e-tube do nothing to alter the triming or anything else the derailleurs do. Seriously. Put your bike on the stand and change the software gears in e-tube (the wrongest most inaccurate ones in the list even) and back and forth and shift it. The only difference you'll see is which cross-chains are allowed. No degradation/altering of shifting performance--because changing the software tooth-counts does nothing to how the derailleurs do their job.
    Are you certain the cassette setting only affects the cross-chaining prevention? Do you have a source for that (i.e. a Shimano web page or other reference)? The RD moves both side to side and forward and back when shifting gears. Perhaps the cassette setting changes the amount it moves front to back? I'm not sure and can't measure it, but thats what I expected and thought that might be the source of the shifting issues on my bike.

  21. #21
    'brifter' is f'ing stupid
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    Quote Originally Posted by multirider View Post
    Your statement is incorrect. There is an "Automatic" option for detecting the size of the rear cassette. See attached pictures.

    Di2 - Garmin screen for gearing 2 Automatic.jpgDi2 - Garmin screen for gearing 1.jpgDi2 - Garmin screen for gearing 3 rear options.jpg
    Uhhhmmm, no. That's just so the Garmin knows what to display on the screen. Let me repeat...there is NO auto adjust.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Uhhhmmm, no. That's just so the Garmin knows what to display on the screen. Let me repeat...there is NO auto adjust.
    The RD moves both side to side and forward and back when shifting gears. It seems possible that selecting different cassette sizes (either automatically or manually) might change the amount it moves front to back. Just to clarify - you are certain there's no change in shifting behavior based on that setting on the Garmin screen?

    I realize the selection is in the Garmin, not ETube, but selections for hood button functionality are also done in the Garmin screens and they affect Di2 behavior. I'm certainly not an expert on this, just asking questions to learn more. If all that does is inform the screen display, that's good to know, I won't spend any more time on it because I don't care about that.

    I bought the bike used from a self-proclaimed expert professional mechanic. Nonetheless, the B screw adjustment had the RD pretty far from the cassette teeth even for the 34t cog, so I adjusted it much closer. Swapped to the wheel with the 32t cog, had to do some Di2 trim adjustment but was able to get it to shift cleanly, swapped back to the wheel with the 34t cog, seemed to shift cleanly.

    But all that was at 10pm on the work stand, didn't try riding it. I've had a LOT of adjustments work well on the stand and then not in real life on the road, so I scheduled the victory celebration after my planned ride this evening.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    Automatic and Manual Mode settings have nothing to do with the DR position relative to the cogs, those are shifting modes not adjustments.

    Sounds to me like you have the B screw too tight for the smaller cassettes, but a 2 tooth difference isn't much. The farther the DR is from the cog the harder it is to force the chain to the right position for a shift due to side play in the chain.
    Please see my reply to CXWrench -- I was referring to the "Automatic" vs "Manual" selection of cassette gearing in the Garmin screen for Di2.

    Your suggestion to look at the B screw adjustment seemed to hit the nail on the head. As mentioned in my reply to CXWrench, I purchased it used from a professional mechanic and just wanted it to work. I'm not a professional mechanic, I just want to ride my bikes. Nonetheless, your comment about the B screw adjustment and side-to-side play in the chain made a lot of sense, so I decided to take a look. The RD pulley was quite far from the 34t (and even farther from the 32t on the other wheel), so I adjusted it much closer. Was subsequently able to use the Di2 trim adjustment to get it to shift cleanly on work stand last night. Planning to ride and swap wheels this evening to see if that actually cured the problem. Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Try using the spacers from the hub that works okay with the cogs from the other one.


    I had the same issue with mechanical. I knew one of my spacers was bent (came that way in the mail) but I thought the lock ring pressure would straighten it out. Either that didn't work or it was otherwise defective also. Either way taking spacers from a hub that worked fine did the trick.
    Thanks for the suggestion, I tried it, didn't fix the issue, but it might have. Glad you were able to get yours fixed.

    Both hubs are DT Swiss, so I'm hopeful there aren't manufacturing differences that, though in tolerance of the spec, cause alignment to be the problem.

  25. #25
    'brifter' is f'ing stupid
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    Quote Originally Posted by multirider View Post
    The RD moves both side to side and forward and back when shifting gears. It seems possible that selecting different cassette sizes (either automatically or manually) might change the amount it moves front to back. Just to clarify - you are certain there's no change in shifting behavior based on that setting on the Garmin screen?

    I realize the selection is in the Garmin, not ETube, but selections for hood button functionality are also done in the Garmin screens and they affect Di2 behavior. I'm certainly not an expert on this, just asking questions to learn more. If all that does is inform the screen display, that's good to know, I won't spend any more time on it because I don't care about that.

    I bought the bike used from a self-proclaimed expert professional mechanic. Nonetheless, the B screw adjustment had the RD pretty far from the cassette teeth even for the 34t cog, so I adjusted it much closer. Swapped to the wheel with the 32t cog, had to do some Di2 trim adjustment but was able to get it to shift cleanly, swapped back to the wheel with the 34t cog, seemed to shift cleanly.

    But all that was at 10pm on the work stand, didn't try riding it. I've had a LOT of adjustments work well on the stand and then not in real life on the road, so I scheduled the victory celebration after my planned ride this evening.
    Di2 ONLY controls the derailleur moving side to side. It doesn't adjust anything by itself. It will control which gears you shift into and how but it doesn't figure anything out by itself. You have to set all limits and tell it what to do. It definitely doesn't control the fore-art movement of the derailleur as you shift through different cogs. That is down to the spring that pulls the pulley cage back and which cog you're in. It's a normal derailleur in that way.
    #promechaniclife

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