Trek top cap max torque... really ? - Page 2
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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Since they can't laser etch complete headset adjustment instructions on a top cap I guess they just figured a MAX value would be good enough for most people. Not all people mind you, but most. You can take that for what it's worth, or you can overthink it...
    You would think that from a liability perspective there should also be a minimum torque spec, eh?
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Not sure what Mitch does at Trek but I've never tightened a normal threadless headset to 4nm. With the Domane SL/SLR you need to comperess the spring washer so 4nm is needed. It's definitely more than a normal headset. I'll have to try it sometime w/ a torque wrench to see just what happens.
    Maybe we're talking about two different items. I was reffering to the cap top bolt which indicates 4Nm on the top. That is the max, but you can use less if your spacers are not able to be moved and the bolt is snug.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9W9W View Post
    You would think that from a liability perspective there should also be a minimum torque spec, eh?
    Once you tighten the stem, you can take that dam thing off and throw it away. There is no minimum!
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Interesting. I'm sure I've seen them like yours but just never really noticed because I've seen so many w/ the torque spec on them and just know how tight to make them. That's definitely a part that should have the spec in a visible spot.
    CX, I spoke with Trek again and initially the rep stated that the torque spec was 4nm right off the top of the top cap bolt. So, obviously this is very misleading because even the Trek rep thought that was the torque spec because that is what's on the top cap bolt. But, when I pointed out that that's the torque spec for the top cap bolt and not the expander bolt, he had to do some checking. He sent me an email with the Domane SLR install instructions for the expander, which requires 10nm. He stated it's the same install method for the Emonda. I asked if that was the suggested max torque rate and he responded, no the actual spec to use. The instructions seems to allude to using 10nm also. I will post up Trek's response when I get home, but I just wanted to report back my findings.

    For some reason, there is no build manual for the Emonda (I can find manuals for Domane and Madone online)...do you have any idea why? Just curious.

    Btw, I cut my stem the other day and torqued it to 8nm now.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Maybe we're talking about two different items. I was reffering to the cap top bolt which indicates 4Nm on the top. That is the max, but you can use less if your spacers are not able to be moved and the bolt is snug.
    No, we're talking about the same thing. As I posted before I've never 'torqued' a top cap bolt, and thus a headset, to 4nm. I've never tightened a top cap so that the spacers don't move. I adjust a headset so that it's properly adjusted, nothing more, nothing less. And again, the ONLY headset that has a torque value that should be used is the Domane w/ front IsoSpeed. I think having a torque value on the top cap is somewhat misleading but I guess it's there in an effort to keep ham fisted mechanics from really overdoing it.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methodical View Post
    CX, I spoke with Trek again and initially the rep stated that the torque spec was 4nm right off the top of the top cap bolt. So, obviously this is very misleading because even the Trek rep thought that was the torque spec because that is what's on the top cap bolt. But, when I pointed out that that's the torque spec for the top cap bolt and not the expander bolt, he had to do some checking. He sent me an email with the Domane SLR install instructions for the expander, which requires 10nm. He stated it's the same install method for the Emonda. I asked if that was the suggested max torque rate and he responded, no the actual spec to use. The instructions seems to allude to using 10nm also. I will post up Trek's response when I get home, but I just wanted to report back my findings.

    For some reason, there is no build manual for the Emonda (I can find manuals for Domane and Madone online)...do you have any idea why? Just curious.

    Btw, I cut my stem the other day and torqued it to 8nm now.
    When swapping stems on my Emonda, I noticed my expander had crept up the tube a little bit. I went to put it back in place and realized if was severly undertorqued. Whoever installed it, either at the shop or the factory, probably made the same mistake and torked it to 4nM.

    I contacted Trek to get the proper torque spec (as I could only find it here and on in the Domane manual, I wanted the "official" figure). They said 4nM for the expander, which I pointed out seems awfully low for such a part. They are supposed to get back to me.

    Seems like the confusion on this matter is pretty common at Trek.

  7. #32
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    Wow, interesting thread. Never knew torqueing a headseat cap can be so confusing!

    However, the "torque specs" on the part is the "exact" torque to be used, that's why ther's a number and that's why there's a torque wrench. If it is just a "max torque" number, then it defeats the purpose of having specs in the first place. If you say that 4 Nm is max, then hell anything from 0 Nm to 4 Nm would still be understood as "within spec", doesn't it, and thus having a spec in this fashion is useless.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    Wow, interesting thread. Never knew torqueing a headseat cap can be so confusing!
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    Last edited by Methodical; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:24 PM.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    Wow, interesting thread. Never knew torqueing a headseat cap can be so confusing!

    However, the "torque specs" on the part is the "exact" torque to be used, that's why ther's a number and that's why there's a torque wrench. If it is just a "max torque" number, then it defeats the purpose of having specs in the first place. If you say that 4 Nm is max, then hell anything from 0 Nm to 4 Nm would still be understood as "within spec", doesn't it, and thus having a spec in this fashion is useless.
    No, wrong. Especially with bearing adjustments. There is no torque value that you can measure and tighten to. The bearing(s) are adjusted properly when they're adjusted properly. If you adjust most headsets to 4Nm they'd be too tight. That's why most of them don't have anything on the top cap. There is no correct torque. Stem bolts are generally 'Max 5.2Nm'...don't go over that. If 4.5Nm holds the bar, use 4.5Nm. Bikes are easy...til they're not.

    Unless you have a Trek Domane w/ front IsoSpeed. That h/s should be tightened to 4.0Nm as described previously in this thread.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    Wow, interesting thread. Never knew torqueing a headseat cap can be so confusing!

    However, the "torque specs" on the part is the "exact" torque to be used, that's why ther's a number and that's why there's a torque wrench.
    Really? So do you torque it wet or dry? Cause that makes a huge difference.
    Torque specs are guidelines... not an exact science. If it were an 'exact' torque, it would be a range, and it'd specify wet or dry.

    If it is just a "max torque" number, then it defeats the purpose of having specs in the first place.
    When there is a 'max' torque, it's simply to prevent damage.
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  11. #36
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    On Shimano crankarms, it says torque 12-14 Nm. This is a clear specification.

    Maybe Trek is not good at spec'ing stuff.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    On Shimano crankarms, it says torque 12-14 Nm. This is a clear specification.

    Maybe Trek is not good at spec'ing stuff.
    That's for the pinch bolts that hold the arm on...you haven't got confused about that have you?

    ETA: Nevermind, I think I know what you mean. Yes, that is quite clear and easily understood. But to me so is: Max 4Nm.
    Last edited by cxwrench; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:20 PM.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    No, wrong. Especially with bearing adjustments. There is no torque value that you can measure and tighten to. The bearing(s) are adjusted properly when they're adjusted properly. If you adjust most headsets to 4Nm they'd be too tight. That's why most of them don't have anything on the top cap. There is no correct torque. Stem bolts are generally 'Max 5.2Nm'...don't go over that. If 4.5Nm holds the bar, use 4.5Nm. Bikes are easy...til they're not.

    Unless you have a Trek Domane w/ front IsoSpeed. That h/s should be tightened to 4.0Nm as described previously in this thread.
    Hence, why it was initially confusing/misleading to me because my Madone doesn't have a NM spec on the top cap (I'd never seen specs on top cap before) and why I thought maybe it was for the steerer plug. That's why I called Trek to get the answer and even the 1st rep thought it was for the steerer plug, until I pressed them on it and then I got the correct answer.
    Last edited by Methodical; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:49 AM.

  14. #39
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    Hmm... standards when it comes to torque specs, generally the number listed, unless it include qualifiers, is what you need to torque it to. Every bolt on machines, vehicles, etc, that has a torque value, you torque it to that value (especially when it comes to TTY bolts... Torque to Yield, or stretch bolts as some call them)

    When there is a range, they usually specify a range, or as the poster above noted, adding MAX, which typically is there so you don't split or break the part.

    That said, when it comes to parts with bearings, and wear and tear rotational parts where the torque may change over time, obviously the values will differ

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToiletSiphon View Post
    When swapping stems on my Emonda, I noticed my expander had crept up the tube a little bit. I went to put it back in place and realized if was severly undertorqued. Whoever installed it, either at the shop or the factory, probably made the same mistake and torked it to 4nM.

    I contacted Trek to get the proper torque spec (as I could only find it here and on in the Domane manual, I wanted the "official" figure). They said 4nM for the expander, which I pointed out seems awfully low for such a part. They are supposed to get back to me.

    Seems like the confusion on this matter is pretty common at Trek.
    Well, they got back to me after a few days. Apparently the number is now 8nM for the expander in the carbon fork of the Emonda ALR. Seems more reasonable, but Trek is definitely all over the place on that.
    Last edited by ToiletSiphon; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:17 PM.

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