Campy Ergo 10 shifting Shimano 9 drivetrain?
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  1. #1

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    Campy Ergo 10 shifting Shimano 9 drivetrain?

    I'm trying to do all research before I build my next cross bike. Some have posted on an earlier thread, but any further assurances this can work would help.

    Anybody heard of or used this gadget? http://www.rideandglide.bizland.com/jtek/shiftmate.htm
    May be a bad idea for cross, no? Would fill with mud and dirt?

    Campy Ergo shifters are the best IMHO for me, and it's what I use on my roadbike, but I want to run a Shimano 9 drivetrain for better gearing and wheel options, and I don't care which derailleurs, just whichever work best.

    There is a good thread on the "drivetrain components" about this: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=8141

    And a site that says no gadgets necessary to run Ergo 10 with Shimano 9: http://www.hubbub.com/ergoleverswshim9.htm


    On a TX site, I found this info:

    "I recently coverted over from Dura-Ace 9sp to Chorus 10sp shifters and derailer, but I am still using my 9sp-shimano cogs.

    Slow down there kids, I know that this is blasphemy, but I'm also cheap and I thought people could benifit from my tinkering.

    Here is the chart:
    ---------C-C (mm)-----x8----------x9
    S9sp-------4.34-------34.72
    C9sp-------4.55-------36.40
    S10sp------3.95-------31.6-------35.55
    C10sp------4.12-------32.96-----37.08

    S9sp vs C9sp........-0.21....-1.68.....-0.84
    S9sp vs C10sp........0.22.....1.76.......0.88
    C9sp vs C10sp.......0.43.....3.44.......1.72
    S10sp vs C10sp....-0.17.....-1.53.....-0.765


    So what does all this mean?

    The first chart is Center to center distance between cogs, followed by times 8 and times 9 (number of shifts).

    The second chart takes this data and lookes at the differences. With the S9sp vs C10sp as an example: 0.22mm is the difference between C-C, 1.76mm is the difference over 8 shifts (9 cogs), and 0.88mm is that divided by two-making the assumption that you would align the derailur about the middle cog and split the difference at the two extremes. Keep in mind that 0.88mm is about .030' which is almost nothing and well within the slope that the chain and floating top pulley generates.

    So what does all this mean - If you have 10sp Campy, you are in between 10sp AND 9sp shimano, so (in theory) no matter what wheel comes out of the wheel truck, you should (with some barrel adjustment) be able to shift and finish.

    Also, if you are like me and would like to switch to some better shifters (I have TWO DA shifters off to warrenty land), go with Campy. For the time being I'm going to use the S9sp cogs until the end of the year when I will spend more money to get Campy hubs, etc. "
    Last edited by Dave K; 06-15-2004 at 11:16 AM.

  2. #2
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    Or.....

    Branford bike will convert 10speed shifters to Campy 9 speed. Then you can get Wheels Manufacturing cassette spacers to convert from Shimano spacing to Campy.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave K
    And a site that says no gadgets necessary to run Ergo 10 with Shimano 9: http://www.hubbub.com/ergoleverswshim9.htm
    I put Campy 10 shifters on my Shimano equipped tandem using the Hubbub method. It works fine. It did take a while to get tuned in at first, but that probably had more to do with the long cables on a tandem.
    "The team wasn't just riders. It was the mechanics, masseurs, chefs, soigneurs, and doctors. But the most important man on the team may have been the chiropractor."

    - Lance Armstrong, Every Second Counts

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by euro-trash
    Branford bike will convert 10speed shifters to Campy 9 speed. Then you can get Wheels Manufacturing cassette spacers to convert from Shimano spacing to Campy.
    I actually do this on my current cross bike and sometimes my road bike. I'm not entirely satisfied with the Campy drivetrain for cross. The Wheels Manuf. cassettes work fine, but are pricey ($120). I want a Shimano drivetrain as I said for more variety on gearing ie: chainrings. Campy cranks smallest gear allowable is 39. And, there's no 46 chainring I have found that is truly made for Campy 10. I have a TA Specialties they say is 9/10 compatible, but the spacing is slightly off which allows the chain to slip between the two chainrings sometimes. I heard Campy is coming out with a compact crankset but like all Campy stuff its gonna be $$$$, which is another reason for wanting a Shimano drivetrain.

    IMHO Campy Ergo shifters are the bomb, and I think far superior to STI for reliability, performance and repairability on a dirty job like cross. Plus, Shimano STI has those silly cables coming out the sides of shifter that my Ergos don't. But Shimano drivetrain is way cheaper initially, also cheaper and more available when replacing parts, has more options and compatibility with other manufacturers such as Ritchey, FSA, SRAM, Bontrager, RaceFace, etc. In other words, I want my cake and eat it too.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by euro-trash
    Branford bike will convert 10speed shifters to Campy 9 speed. Then you can get Wheels Manufacturing cassette spacers to convert from Shimano spacing to Campy.
    Ah wait... you probably mean use all Shimano drivetrain, but space the cassettes the same as Campy9 ? I never thought of that. Hmmm.... now that might be just the ticket! How difficult is that to do? No other compatibilty or chainline issues?

    Could I use a Campy10 or 9 front derailleur to shift a Shimano 9 chainring and chain? Would this work better than using a Shimano 9 front der since I'll be using an Ergo shifter?

  6. #6

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    I found a Wheels Man. "Shift7" model spacer kit, but it requires you start with a Campy 9 cassette then using the spacers, you actually wind up with a Shimano 9 that would require Shimano 9 shifters.


    Or, there's a Wheels Man. conversion cassette for Campy 9 shift compatibility on a Shimano 9 drivetrain, but the Ultegra version cassettes are $146 (bikeman.com ) or $230 for DurAce and we are limited to only the cassettes offered by Wheels Manuf. Not so bad though, since they have pretty much any gearing you need, and cassettes usually last me pretty long. That would allow a Shimano 9 chain, which would give compatibility with all Shimano 9 cranks, so this might be the smoothest shifting solution, if not the cheapest and easiest to do.

    Wheels Manuf. website

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave K
    Also, if you are like me and would like to switch to some better shifters (I have TWO DA shifters off to warrenty land), go with Campy. For the time being I'm going to use the S9sp cogs until the end of the year when I will spend more money to get Campy hubs, etc. "
    Dude, you're making this WAY too much work.

    Here's whatcha do:

    Buy C10 Ergos and rear derailleur and install onto the bike. Install S9 wheel/cassette into dropouts and adjust.

    There are absolutely NO other things that you need to run C10 shifting with S9 cassettes.

    HTH,

    M
    I've moved back to NoVA. PLEASE change the weather!

  8. #8
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    There is a wheels manufacturing spacer kit, not an actual cassette, which allows you to take a Shimano 9 speed cassette and space it for Campy 9 speed shifting. It should run around $20 and your LBS can order it. You'd have to have 9 speed shifters, or convert your current shifters.






    Quote Originally Posted by Dave K
    I found a Wheels Man. "Shift7" model spacer kit, but it requires you start with a Campy 9 cassette then using the spacers, you actually wind up with a Shimano 9 that would require Shimano 9 shifters.


    Or, there's a Wheels Man. conversion cassette for Campy 9 shift compatibility on a Shimano 9 drivetrain, but the Ultegra version cassettes are $146 (bikeman.com ) or $230 for DurAce and we are limited to only the cassettes offered by Wheels Manuf. Not so bad though, since they have pretty much any gearing you need, and cassettes usually last me pretty long. That would allow a Shimano 9 chain, which would give compatibility with all Shimano 9 cranks, so this might be the smoothest shifting solution, if not the cheapest and easiest to do.

    Wheels Manuf. website

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by MShaw
    Dude, you're making this WAY too much work.

    Here's whatcha do:

    Buy C10 Ergos and rear derailleur and install onto the bike. Install S9 wheel/cassette into dropouts and adjust.

    There are absolutely NO other things that you need to run C10 shifting with S9 cassettes.

    HTH,

    M
    You're probably right. But, I don't see this research as work. I like to find out THE best way to solve a problem. I have never seen this (C10 with S9) done, but after adding your confirmation to the others, I'm thinking it's the simplest and best.

    Thanks!

  10. #10
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    Campy 10 to shimano 9

    I run this on my road bike now with perfect shifting.

    My setup is Campy record 10spd ergo, Front and rear derailers, FSA (octalink) crank with a Shimano DA 9 spd cassette. Shifts better than my previous all shimano setup.

    By adjusting the high/low stops on the rear derailer, you can elimate enough travel that the shifter tops out after the 9th click. Effectively turning the Ergo's into 9 spd shifters. I'm using a Sram PC 89r chain.

    I couldn't be happier with the whole setup. So much so, I'm in the process of converting my CX bike to a similiar setup (without the record). You can use any shimano/campy front derailleur but you have to use campy 10 rear derailleur with campy 10 ergo to get best shifting.

    I got the ergo's before the rear deraileur and tried various attempts to mate it with a DA rear derailleur. Worked well enough to ride but never shifter great across the whole cassette and I knew once it get diry it wouldn't shift well. Too finicky so I got a 10spd campy rear derailleur and wala!. Perfection.

    Now I can still use all my shimano wheels with a campy drivetrain and no special adapters, cassettes, spacers or gizmos.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by euro-trash
    There is a wheels manufacturing spacer kit, not an actual cassette, which allows you to take a Shimano 9 speed cassette and space it for Campy 9 speed shifting. It should run around $20 and your LBS can order it. You'd have to have 9 speed shifters, or convert your current shifters.
    I called Wheels Manuf. (303-410-7336), and they said they only sell the whole Accellerator cassettes for this purpose (S9 to C9) since some of the cogs are fused together on Ultegra and DurAce (I dont have an S9 cassette to verify this myself) so they have to separate and respace those cogs as well as use the different loose spacers. Otherwise it would work, but those cogs that are fused would stil be S9 spacing.

    Just changing the spacers out that are loose might be pretty good alternative still, assuming the cassette lockring would still fit on properly. You'd just have a few of the gears a little off, but I dunno, C10 shifting S9 cassette might work as well or better.

  12. #12

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    this is the answer i have been looking for

    Quote Originally Posted by MShaw
    Dude, you're making this WAY too much work.

    Here's whatcha do:

    Buy C10 Ergos and rear derailleur and install onto the bike. Install S9 wheel/cassette into dropouts and adjust.

    There are absolutely NO other things that you need to run C10 shifting with S9 cassettes.

    HTH,

    M
    i want to try ergos on my cx bike with shimano drivetrain. i am glad i saw this before i bought the shimano rd.

    if i understand this right (w/o trying to make it harder than necessary), the cog spacing on the campy 10 is narrower than the shimano 9, so you just dial up the cable tension to increase how far the campy rd moves per shift until it matches the shimano 9 cassette and then set the limit screws to bottom out the rd before the 10th click.

    this sounds soooo easy. i can't wait to try it.

    one more question - the tech info on the centaur rd says max diff on front chainrings is 23 yet i am looking to run a 24-34-48 with a 12-27 on the back. does anyone know if i am going to run into a chainslop issue?

    thanks!
    Last edited by lostrancosrd; 06-17-2004 at 09:20 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostrancosrd
    i want to try ergos on my cx bike with shimano drivetrain. i am glad i saw this before i bought the shimano rd.

    if i understand this right (w/o trying to make it harder than necessary), the cog spacing on the campy 10 is narrower than the shimano 9, so you just dial up the cable tension to increase how far the campy rd moves per shift until it matches the shimano 9 cassette and then set the limit screws to bottom out the rd before the 10th click.

    this sounds soooo easy. i can't wait to try it.

    one more question - the tech info on the centaur rd says max diff on front chainrings is 23 yet i am looking to run a 24-34-48 with a 12-27 on the back. does anyone know if i am going to run into a chainslop issue?

    thanks!
    Re: F. Der. If you have a choice, run the Campy Triple f.der. Should make things much nicer.

    Re: spacing. Dunno. I was doing a 4-way component gruppo switch for a buddy of mine. One of the component gruppos was C10 with a trashed rear wheel. On a lark, I figured I'd try the S9 rear wheel to see if I couldn't get him his last bike back. Turns out it worked fine. First ride was the Sorrento Valley Hill ride on a Tues. Lots of climbing, most of it going hard. Nary a missed shift, no excessive noise.

    HTH,

    M
    I've moved back to NoVA. PLEASE change the weather!

  14. #14
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    rear derailleur

    Quote Originally Posted by lostrancosrd
    i want to try ergos on my cx bike with shimano drivetrain. i am glad i saw this before i bought the shimano rd.

    if i understand this right (w/o trying to make it harder than necessary), the cog spacing on the campy 10 is narrower than the shimano 9, so you just dial up the cable tension to increase how far the campy rd moves per shift until it matches the shimano 9 cassette and then set the limit screws to bottom out the rd before the 10th click.

    this sounds soooo easy. i can't wait to try it.

    one more question - the tech info on the centaur rd says max diff on front chainrings is 23 yet i am looking to run a 24-34-48 with a 12-27 on the back. does anyone know if i am going to run into a chainslop issue?

    thanks!

    Use the medium or long cage version of the centaur on the rear for a triple setup. Also, we're talking about less than 1/2mm difference in cassette spacing here. It doesn't seem to make any perceptable difference to shifting. This setup shifts better for me than the previous all DA drivetrain did.

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    thanks again for the info. i was looking to run the med cage rd so that i can run an 11 tooth cassette on my road wheelset (i have one sitting around).

    the only problems i see is that the item description for the centaur med cage says max rear cog of 26 w/ a triple and a max capacity (front chainring diff) of 22 teeth. would you think i can get away with the 27 tooth cog (close enough to 26??) and a front chainring diff of 24?

    the stated capacity of the centaur med cage is 36 and my set up would require 39. since i am usually smart enough not to completely cross chain, i think i should be fine - anyone correct me if this doesn't sound right.

    fwiw - i check the front chainring constraint on a DA triple fd and it is also listed at 22 eventhough the DA triple is 53-39-30 = 23 tooth differential, so the fd capacities must be a little flexible.

    also, do you think the campy fd is going to have any problem working with a 24 tooth chainring? i noticed that the ATB fds have a longer cage with more curvature and i just assumed this was to help with the smaller chainrings.
    Last edited by lostrancosrd; 06-18-2004 at 01:54 PM.

  16. #16
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    Front Derailleur

    The Med Cage should work fine. It may be a little finicky about proper chain length but should work fine. My experience has been that 1 tooth difference doesn't effect shifting.

    You can use any front deraileur. They are all compatible cable pull wise (shimano campy 8/9/10 spd). The simplest solution would be to use a shimano MTB front derailleur. XT/XTR will handle 22 to 48t without any problems.

    The campy will work but may not shift as clean.

  17. #17

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    one more question

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdogger
    I run this on my road bike now with perfect shifting.

    My setup is Campy record 10spd ergo, Front and rear derailers, FSA (octalink) crank with a Shimano DA 9 spd cassette. Shifts better than my previous all shimano setup.

    By adjusting the high/low stops on the rear derailer, you can elimate enough travel that the shifter tops out after the 9th click. Effectively turning the Ergo's into 9 spd shifters. I'm using a Sram PC 89r chain.

    I couldn't be happier with the whole setup. So much so, I'm in the process of converting my CX bike to a similiar setup (without the record). You can use any shimano/campy front derailleur but you have to use campy 10 rear derailleur with campy 10 ergo to get best shifting.

    I got the ergo's before the rear deraileur and tried various attempts to mate it with a DA rear derailleur. Worked well enough to ride but never shifter great across the whole cassette and I knew once it get diry it wouldn't shift well. Too finicky so I got a 10spd campy rear derailleur and wala!. Perfection.

    Now I can still use all my shimano wheels with a campy drivetrain and no special adapters, cassettes, spacers or gizmos.
    9 or 10 spd chain with ergo shifter and campy rd? i will go with stainless whipperman unless i need a 10 spd campy chain.

  18. #18
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    chain

    Quote Originally Posted by lostrancosrd
    9 or 10 spd chain with ergo shifter and campy rd? i will go with stainless whipperman unless i need a 10 spd campy chain.

    I'm running a PC-89R SRAM chain with no problems. Any good 9 speed chain will work

  19. #19

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    thanks for all your help

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdogger
    I'm running a PC-89R SRAM chain with no problems. Any good 9 speed chain will work
    i just got the call from the LBS that my frame (scandium las cruces w/ carbon fork) arrived today, i will build it up over the next couple of weeks and am looking forward to trying the campy set up.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockdogger
    The Med Cage should work fine. It may be a little finicky about proper chain length but should work fine. My experience has been that 1 tooth difference doesn't effect shifting.

    You can use any front deraileur. They are all compatible cable pull wise (shimano campy 8/9/10 spd). The simplest solution would be to use a shimano MTB front derailleur. XT/XTR will handle 22 to 48t without any problems.

    The campy will work but may not shift as clean.
    My front derailleur on my cross bike is an XTR. I can't wait to go Ergos on this bike too!

    Uh, waitaminit! That means buying THREE sets of Ergos and rear derailleurs. Hmmm.... The 3 pair of SPD-Sls I need to buy means next year's gonna get pricey!

    M
    I've moved back to NoVA. PLEASE change the weather!

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockdogger
    ...You can use any shimano/campy front derailleur but you have to use campy 10 rear derailleur with campy 10 ergo to get best shifting.....
    So, an older Campy 9 rear derailleur not going to work well with the Campy 10 shifters even though I'll be using it to shift over Shimano 9 cogs? I only ask cuz Campy 9 rear ders are available on the cheap.

  22. #22
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    9 spd rear der should be fine

    9 spd rear der should work just fine. I don't remember the exact year but around 2000 they changed designs and had compatability issues. Check out www.campyonly.com for info.

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