Tubeless Datapoint: 2011 Hutchinson Piranhas, Stans Strip, Non-Tubeless Rim
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  1. #1
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    Tubeless Datapoint: 2011 Hutchinson Piranhas, Stans Strip, Non-Tubeless Rim

    Tubeless technology in the world of 'cross seems to be a hot topic, and there are frequently threads asking about it. I figured I'd offer up a datapoint for those who are googling about this stuff as I have.

    My setup: Hutchinson Piranhas (2011 version, not the 2010s). Wheels are Neuvation R28SLs, not a 'tubeless ready' out-of-the-box rim. I used Stans Yellow tape and valve stems, drilling out the rim slightly as per Stan's recommendation on his video.

    The Hutchinsons mounted up relatively easily, and sealed up relatively easily.

    In riding them around mellow singletrack with some roots and the occasional rock, I managed to consistently burp air out of them in a relatively short time. I'm not the most finesse rider, but not exactly a bull in a china shop either. I felt a few hits of the rear wheel seeming like it might have bottomed out, and this seems to have been when the burping took place (I didn't hear any sounds of escaping air, only noticed the tire getting flatter). I have been riding them on crushed gravel and bike paths with no air loss problems, so I'm pretty sure the burping and rough ground were correlated.

    I weigh 140 lbs, the bike weighs what an affordable cross bike weighs, and had 35 lbs of air in the tires. I was kinda disappointed, expecting to be able to run something more like 30 lbs based on internet testimonials and my own light weight.


    I will update this thread if anything changes as I experiment.

  2. #2
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    I would try setting the wheels up with the stan's cyclocross rim strip (the rubber one, not just the tape). A teammate ran Hutchinson tubeless tires on Neuvation wheels last season without a problem.

  3. #3
    Iohannes fac totum
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    For any non-Stans rim, I thought it was recommended to use the rubber strip? On Stans actual rim, I have no issues with the Pirranhas and yellow tape. But Stans rims have a much shorter sidewall.

  4. #4
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    Just like MTB, you'll need a rim strip to run tubeless on a non-Stans rim.

  5. #5
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    Even running Stan's rims I've had a few friends give up on tubeless for racing because of burping at proper race pressures. If you can't run sub 30lb pressures on race wheels (assuming you're under 200lbs) tubeless is pointless. I do however run Hutchinsons tubeless on my commuter/fun bike but they never see pressures below 40 psi.

  6. #6
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    Lol, sub 30??
    I won't go sub 30psi on my mountain bike with 2.2in tires!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by colinfr View Post
    Lol, sub 30??
    I won't go sub 30psi on my mountain bike with 2.2in tires!
    Obviously, you're not a golfer.....

    Last edited by jared_j; 07-21-2011 at 01:55 PM.

  8. #8
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    I've been running Michelin Mud2s tubeless on Stan's Crest rims. I usually start at 28 psi in the front and 30 psi in the rear and bleed off a few psi depending on the course. I don't have issues with burping as long as the tire pressure is above 22.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmarsh View Post
    I've been running Michelin Mud2s tubeless on Stan's Crest rims. I usually start at 28 psi in the front and 30 psi in the rear and bleed off a few psi depending on the course. I don't have issues with burping as long as the tire pressure is above 22.
    and you weigh what??

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmarsh View Post
    I've been running Michelin Mud2s tubeless on Stan's Crest rims. I usually start at 28 psi in the front and 30 psi in the rear and bleed off a few psi depending on the course. I don't have issues with burping as long as the tire pressure is above 22.
    Sure, I have Crests for my MTB and run them like that as well.

    There is, however, a fundamental difference in the structure of a Stan's rim and how it holds the tire/air compared with doing a Stan's conversion on some other rim.

    With the Stan's rim, you air the tire up, hear 'popping' sounds, and the bead locks to the rim (irrespective of PSI - drain it to zero and the bead is still locked on). It requires some force to dislodge it.

    From my experience, the same sort of connection between the tire and the rim does not occur when using a conversion kit with some arbitrary non-Stan's branded rim.

    I think a lot of the discussion about tubeless setups on the intertoobs glosses over this difference because some don't have experience with the distinction between a Stan's rim and a Stan's conversion kit for a non-Stan's rim.

    Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill on this? I've never burped air on my MTB with Crest rims in the mid/low 20s PSI. I want to attribute some of this difference to the more robust connection between the tire and rim that is made with the Stan's rim.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jared_j View Post
    Sure, I have Crests for my MTB and run them like that as well.

    There is, however, a fundamental difference in the structure of a Stan's rim and how it holds the tire/air compared with doing a Stan's conversion on some other rim.

    With the Stan's rim, you air the tire up, hear 'popping' sounds, and the bead locks to the rim (irrespective of PSI - drain it to zero and the bead is still locked on). It requires some force to dislodge it.

    From my experience, the same sort of connection between the tire and the rim does not occur when using a conversion kit with some arbitrary non-Stan's branded rim.

    I think a lot of the discussion about tubeless setups on the intertoobs glosses over this difference because some don't have experience with the distinction between a Stan's rim and a Stan's conversion kit for a non-Stan's rim.

    Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill on this? I've never burped air on my MTB with Crest rims in the mid/low 20s PSI. I want to attribute some of this difference to the more robust connection between the tire and rim that is made with the Stan's rim.

    Actually Stan's rims are a half measure and not nearly as good as a true UST bead seat like used on the Shimano/Hutchinson combo, of which I've still heard of plenty of burping problems but not nearly as much as Stans and standard rims.

  12. #12
    Iohannes fac totum
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    Quote Originally Posted by colinfr View Post
    Lol, sub 30??
    I won't go sub 30psi on my mountain bike with 2.2in tires!

    Only reason to go over 30 psi on a tubeless MTB is if you're a clyde. If you're over 30 psi then you're missing out.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnTheRivet View Post
    Actually Stan's rims are a half measure and not nearly as good as a true UST bead seat like used on the Shimano/Hutchinson combo, of which I've still heard of plenty of burping problems but not nearly as much as Stans and standard rims.
    I don't know anything about UST setups vis a vis Stan's. Can you clarify what you mean by the Stan's rim being a 'half measure'? I've not heard this assertion before.

  14. #14
    Iohannes fac totum
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    Quote Originally Posted by jared_j View Post
    I don't know anything about UST setups vis a vis Stan's. Can you clarify what you mean by the Stan's rim being a 'half measure'? I've not heard this assertion before.

    You haven 't heard it before because it's not true.

    The fact of the matter is that there is no perfect system. Tubeless can burp, tubulars can roll, tubed can pinch flat. They all can puncture. The advantage of a punctured tubular is that it is easier to ride to the pits.

  15. #15
    m_s
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    UST is mavic's system and I wouldn't say that it is any better or worse than Stans. UST tires usually don't need sealant because the sidewalls are very burly and UST spec wheels generally don't have internal spoke hole drilling. The downside is tire weight. On my mountain bike I use Shimano UST wheels with standard tires and sealant, works great. There seem to be some differences between the bead lock design of UST and Stans but whatever, they both work.

    It's a moot point anyways because as far as I am aware there are no UST tires for cross, though the Shimano tubeless wheels may be UST spec?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 88 rex View Post
    You haven 't heard it before because it's not true.
    Ya, that's why Easton, Shimano, and ENVE composites pay money to use it on their rims, and I'm sure you know more about rim design than all their engineers....tool.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...-certification

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jared_j View Post
    I don't know anything about UST setups vis a vis Stan's. Can you clarify what you mean by the Stan's rim being a 'half measure'? I've not heard this assertion before.
    The UST rim has a raised inner portion that prevents the bead from being pushed in and minimizes burping, that coupled with the fact that the bead on UST rims and UST certified tires match which is the reason they can be inflated with a floor pump, that in and of itself should tell you it's a more secure setup. Also, it's the ONLY tubeless setup DH racers will use, again very telling. A proper "Tubeless ready" tire uses a UST bead with a standard sidewall which requires sealant. I'm not a Stan's hater, have them on both my XC MTB's because they are a good enough option in that area and weigh less than a typical UST rim but they are not the best option when it comes to low pressures and burping.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by m_s View Post
    It's a moot point anyways because as far as I am aware there are no UST tires for cross, though the Shimano tubeless wheels may be UST spec?
    Hutchinson and any UST spect 29'er tire that's skinny enough to fit into a cross frame.

  19. #19
    Iohannes fac totum
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnTheRivet View Post
    Ya, that's why Easton, Shimano, and ENVE composites pay money to use it on their rims, and I'm sure you know more about rim design than all their engineers....tool.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...-certification
    Your points aren't connected and you're clueless. Your assertion that Stans is a "half measure" is bogus. No, it's not UST, but UST is not Stans. They are two separate systems, neither is a half measure.

    Maybe if Easton/Shimano/Enve had such genius engineers they could make their own system?

    FWIW, Sun is using Stans design, and I imagine there is some partnership there being that Sun makes Stans rims.

  20. #20
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    On Xc rims I have them down as low as 19. On cross around low 30s and I don't get burps. But this debate is a little stupid honestly, it's not black and white. There are hundreds or rim and tire combinations and that marriage is what makes all the difference. I have several sets of Stans, - crests, alphas (road), flows and those are a breeze to seat and seal and I simply don't get burps even on rooty rocky 1track.

    UST sucks.

    My beater fulcrums I use for cross training I have extra tape and a rim strip and can use most clinchers with a loose bead. It's not much of a problem to run low air, it's more likely to get a blow off and burp with more air.

    Bottom line I get zero flat tires and will never use a tube in a tire again.

  21. #21
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    I rode Stans Raven CX tires on 355 rims last year down to 30 psi in several races with no issues. Going with the Alpha 340s this year and going to to try the Raven, Piranhas, and Captain CX 2BR to see what performs the best. I'm using Stans Rims on all my bikes and have not had any problems.

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