tubeless w/ new UST rims--good plan?
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  1. #1
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    tubeless w/ new UST rims--good plan?

    I'm sick of screwing around with all these wheels and tires and since I'm not that good anyway I want to just race cross on one damn set of tires.

    So there.

    My plan on paper is to get some of those tubeless shimano ultegra wheels and run something like a PDX with sealant at 35-is psi, maybe softer in the front, I weigh 175.

    The time I waste dicking around with tubulars, I'm going to spend training.

    Good plan??

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    I'd double check the shimano tubeless rim performance at low pressures. Not sure what the inner surface of those rims look like, but you'll want to look for the key components that make a good low pressure set-up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by krisdrum View Post
    I'd double check the shimano tubeless rim performance at low pressures. Not sure what the inner surface of those rims look like, but you'll want to look for the key components that make a good low pressure set-up.
    I don't know what that means--is there a better option? I can either get prebuilt or rims

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    Quote Originally Posted by jroden View Post
    I don't know what that means--is there a better option? I can either get prebuilt or rims
    Not to be a jerk but you might want to figure that out before dropping coin. The tubeless system will only be less hassle if you understand how it works. And to be honest you may need some trial and error even then. CXM has a great 3 part series on going tubeless. I believe part 3 talks about the important factors to consider in order to run low CX tire pressures to help close the gap between tubeless and tubular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by krisdrum View Post
    Not to be a jerk but you might want to figure that out before dropping coin. The tubeless system will only be less hassle if you understand how it works. And to be honest you may need some trial and error even then. CXM has a great 3 part series on going tubeless. I believe part 3 talks about the important factors to consider in order to run low CX tire pressures to help close the gap between tubeless and tubular.
    that's why I posted the question. I have tried tubeless in the past but had mixed results. My interest is in the newly designed rims from HED, Shimano, Stans, etc. and their real world performance.

    Do you have experiences with tubeless?

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    In my limited experience, there will be some trial and error. For the last half of the 2013 season, I ran Stan's Alpha 400 Comp wheels with Clemente MXP tires as my do-everything wheelset. My first race I burped/blew my rear tire off the rim coming down a flyover, but I was running way too high of a pressure. 2nd race was great, no problem. 3rd race I burped again, the front this time, going through some deep ruts running perpendicular to the course. After that I think I finally figured out my pressure (I'm 190ish lbs) and the last 3 races on these wheels went by without a problem. These tires work for 90% of the conditions around here, so I plan on sticking with them for this season.

    I don't particularly have the gumption to try getting one started, but it would be great if we had a sticky for the forum for tubless rim and tire combos on how they perform in race situations. Something like: rim, tire, rider weight, F/R tire pressures, scale of 1 to 5 for how they perform. That would take a lot of guess work out of something like this.

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    what did you settle on for a pressure?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jroden View Post
    that's why I posted the question. I have tried tubeless in the past but had mixed results. My interest is in the newly designed rims from HED, Shimano, Stans, etc. and their real world performance.

    Do you have experiences with tubeless?
    Here is Part 3 of the CXM article. They talk in depth about the factors you want to consider.

    No, I'm in the same boat as you. I've committed to tubeless for this season for many of the same reasons you outlined.

    Based on the rim profile and early reviews (and a good price) I picked up some of the new WTB cross rims that are UST specific. I'm sure there will be tires that will work better than others on these rims, so I am going into this with reserved optimism. I chose these rims because they hit most of the design marks I understand will allow burp resistant low psi riding. Wide shelves under the bead, narrow center channel, shelf "ramps" all of which should reduce the possibility of the bead moving at low pressures and causing air loss. The only thing I would have liked to see was a shallower bead to shelf depth. But if you look at the other rim profiles most folks are having success running at low CX appropriate pressures, they have a combination of many of these design elements in place.

    CXM has been a vocal supporter of tubeless CX for quite awhile and have the access to do much of the trial and error for us, which they are always doing, so I take their perspective (right or wrong) with alot of credibility and value. YMMV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Love Commander View Post
    In my limited experience, there will be some trial and error. For the last half of the 2013 season, I ran Stan's Alpha 400 Comp wheels with Clemente MXP tires as my do-everything wheelset. My first race I burped/blew my rear tire off the rim coming down a flyover, but I was running way too high of a pressure. 2nd race was great, no problem. 3rd race I burped again, the front this time, going through some deep ruts running perpendicular to the course. After that I think I finally figured out my pressure (I'm 190ish lbs) and the last 3 races on these wheels went by without a problem. These tires work for 90% of the conditions around here, so I plan on sticking with them for this season.

    I don't particularly have the gumption to try getting one started, but it would be great if we had a sticky for the forum for tubless rim and tire combos on how they perform in race situations. Something like: rim, tire, rider weight, F/R tire pressures, scale of 1 to 5 for how they perform. That would take a lot of guess work out of something like this.
    Are you using the rim strips with the 400s? Or just Stan's tape and sealant?

    Although not quite as in depth as you propose, the CXM article I posted in another reply is updated periodically with their trial and error feedback on rim/tire combinations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jroden View Post
    what did you settle on for a pressure?
    It's been a while, but I believe I was about 33 in front and 35 in back, though even that might be a bit high. Running lower than that, I felt the squishy feeling from the rear tire when riding across pavement sections to be really unnerving, thought it might just be something I need to get used to.

    Quote Originally Posted by krisdrum View Post
    Are you using the rim strips with the 400s? Or just Stan's tape and sealant?

    Although not quite as in depth as you propose, the CXM article I posted in another reply is updated periodically with their trial and error feedback on rim/tire combinations.
    Just the tape and sealant.

    And thanks for the link. I will check it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Love Commander View Post
    Just the tape and sealant.

    And thanks for the link. I will check it out.
    FYI - Stan's now provides the rim strips free with the 340s and 400s, for running low pressure with those rims, I understand they are essential.

    And in looking at the list of rims/tires today, I noticed they haven't been updated all that recently. But there are numerous threads in their forum section related to tubeless that likely has more up to date information and impressions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by krisdrum View Post
    FYI - Stan's now provides the rim strips free with the 340s and 400s, for running low pressure with those rims, I understand they are essential.

    And in looking at the list of rims/tires today, I noticed they haven't been updated all that recently. But there are numerous threads in their forum section related to tubeless that likely has more up to date information and impressions.
    I did not know that about the rim strips. I think I'll throw on a set once the practice sessions start up. Thanks again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Love Commander View Post
    I did not know that about the rim strips. I think I'll throw on a set once the practice sessions start up. Thanks again.
    Yeah, again, I think that was CXM feedback and Stan's has taken it to heart and now include them free because of that.

    Jroden - was just re-reading your OP, and I am the same weight, and have been able to run clinchers with latex tubes at least 5 psi lower (based on my floor pump dial) than you are proposing as a set-up. Maybe I am just lighter on my wheels. For comparison, I am aiming to consistently run sub 30 (25-30 psi) with my tubeless set-up. So if you are comfortable at 35 psi, you might want to take all the hassle out of it and just go with latex tubes and some nice "open tubular" tires (Challenge or similar) on a standard clincher rim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jroden View Post
    that's why I posted the question. I have tried tubeless in the past but had mixed results. My interest is in the newly designed rims from HED, Shimano, Stans, etc. and their real world performance.

    Do you have experiences with tubeless?
    About 190 lbs myself....

    Yes, with Stan's Alpha 400 and using tubeless ready tires (Vittoria XG TNT & Specialized The Captain 2BR).... with stan's sealant... no issues with burping on rooty singletrack. I also do 2 layers of stan's tape... no rimstrip...as I use tubeless ready tires. Stan's isn't UST... but they use a reduced bead hook height, in addition the bench, etc... it makes some satisfying popping noises as you inflate the tire. I have found I have to get it to 60 psi to get all the popping noises (then deflate the needed pressure)

    Converting using regular cross tires... it's just like MTB... you may have to use a rimstrip, or you don't. You won't know until you try it out first. And my MTB is tubeless (with tubeless ready MTB tires)

    and Specialized now has a range of tubeless ready CX tires.
    Last edited by tednugent; 04-29-2014 at 01:04 PM.
    2010 Specialized Secteur Elite with the RBR not-approved Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheelset
    2009 Specialized Rockhopper Comp 29er upgraded to SRAM X9 with 1x10 and Stan's Arch EX rims and tubeless.
    2013 Cannondale CAADX-6 Tiagra with 9-speed SLX RD to run 11-32T cassette and Stan's Alpha 400 rims and tubeless
    and
    Some Burton snowboard setups, one with stiff ol' Camber and one with Rocker-Camber-Rocker

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    shimano does not recommend alkaline sealant with their tubeless wheelsets.

    so... Stan's is out of the question.

    Caffe-Latex or OrangeSeal may be alternatives, but I don't know they pH.
    2010 Specialized Secteur Elite with the RBR not-approved Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheelset
    2009 Specialized Rockhopper Comp 29er upgraded to SRAM X9 with 1x10 and Stan's Arch EX rims and tubeless.
    2013 Cannondale CAADX-6 Tiagra with 9-speed SLX RD to run 11-32T cassette and Stan's Alpha 400 rims and tubeless
    and
    Some Burton snowboard setups, one with stiff ol' Camber and one with Rocker-Camber-Rocker

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pretender View Post
    From what I understand the redesigned A23s are not good at handling low pressure needs. I hear the old A23s are actually better tubeless for that purpose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by krisdrum View Post
    From what I understand the redesigned A23s are not good at handling low pressure needs. I hear the old A23s are actually better tubeless for that purpose.
    I can safely say the current A23 is a better tubeless rim than the old one. The web was designed from the ground up to be tubeless ready, and we have numerous sponsored cross riders running tubeless with no issues at CX events with varying pressure.

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    there's also a CX tubeless thread on MTBR

    CX Tubeless setup thread
    2010 Specialized Secteur Elite with the RBR not-approved Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheelset
    2009 Specialized Rockhopper Comp 29er upgraded to SRAM X9 with 1x10 and Stan's Arch EX rims and tubeless.
    2013 Cannondale CAADX-6 Tiagra with 9-speed SLX RD to run 11-32T cassette and Stan's Alpha 400 rims and tubeless
    and
    Some Burton snowboard setups, one with stiff ol' Camber and one with Rocker-Camber-Rocker

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by krisdrum View Post
    Here is Part 3 of the CXM article. They talk in depth about the factors you want to consider.

    No, I'm in the same boat as you. I've committed to tubeless for this season for many of the same reasons you outlined.

    Based on the rim profile and early reviews (and a good price) I picked up some of the new WTB cross rims that are UST specific. I'm sure there will be tires that will work better than others on these rims, so I am going into this with reserved optimism. I chose these rims because they hit most of the design marks I understand will allow burp resistant low psi riding. Wide shelves under the bead, narrow center channel, shelf "ramps" all of which should reduce the possibility of the bead moving at low pressures and causing air loss. The only thing I would have liked to see was a shallower bead to shelf depth. But if you look at the other rim profiles most folks are having success running at low CX appropriate pressures, they have a combination of many of these design elements in place.

    CXM has been a vocal supporter of tubeless CX for quite awhile and have the access to do much of the trial and error for us, which they are always doing, so I take their perspective (right or wrong) with alot of credibility and value. YMMV.
    Any opinion on stans crest vs easton ea90xc?

    ZTR Crest 29er Stock Wheelset
    EA90 XC 29" - Wheels

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by seely View Post
    I can safely say the current A23 is a better tubeless rim than the old one. The web was designed from the ground up to be tubeless ready, and we have numerous sponsored cross riders running tubeless with no issues at CX events with varying pressure.
    Just relaying what I've read and heard. I have older A23s (2 sets), but have not tried running them tubeless to date. So maybe I am biased and trying to convince myself they are better. ;)

  22. #22
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    See

    Also, a person at MTBR has done lots of C-clamp testing as well.

    2010 Specialized Secteur Elite with the RBR not-approved Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheelset
    2009 Specialized Rockhopper Comp 29er upgraded to SRAM X9 with 1x10 and Stan's Arch EX rims and tubeless.
    2013 Cannondale CAADX-6 Tiagra with 9-speed SLX RD to run 11-32T cassette and Stan's Alpha 400 rims and tubeless
    and
    Some Burton snowboard setups, one with stiff ol' Camber and one with Rocker-Camber-Rocker

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    I can promise you PDX's will not stay on any rim except for a Notubes Iron Cross Disc, when coming around a corner very very hard. You have kind of a chance with 340/400's but they can still roll off, i used those and actually glued the bead to the rim, then they were solid.

    If you go the tubeless rim route, i would get actual tubeless tires. Like IRC serac CX, vittora XL or XG TNT, Kenda, Maxxis or Hutchinson.

    I have Reynolds R29 XC disc wheels with IRC serac CX's on them and there is no way they are going to burp. We dropped the tires to 10 psi and pulled them around the rim, so that the bead even broke free into the center channel, and they still didn't leak any air.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by scooterman View Post
    I can promise you PDX's will not stay on any rim except for a Notubes Iron Cross Disc, when coming around a corner very very hard. You have kind of a chance with 340/400's but they can still roll off, i used those and actually glued the bead to the rim, then they were solid.

    If you go the tubeless rim route, i would get actual tubeless tires. Like IRC serac CX, vittora XL or XG TNT, Kenda, Maxxis or Hutchinson.

    I have Reynolds R29 XC disc wheels with IRC serac CX's on them and there is no way they are going to burp. We dropped the tires to 10 psi and pulled them around the rim, so that the bead even broke free into the center channel, and they still didn't leak any air.
    So are all of the vittoria and Kenda tires OK for tubeless? They don't seem to have a UST specific. What is a decent tire for muddy-ish conditions that will still roll OK like the PDX?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jroden View Post
    So are all of the vittoria and Kenda tires OK for tubeless? They don't seem to have a UST specific. What is a decent tire for muddy-ish conditions that will still roll OK like the PDX?
    Vittoria uses TNT as their tubeless designation (Tube No Tube = TNT). Kenda uses UCT I believe to differentiate tubeless vs. non in their line. Specialized uses "2Bliss". Etc. All of the manufacturers have some sort of designation if they have a tubeless ready offering.

    I hear the up and coming mud tubeless is the Vittoria XL. Not sure how it rolls though. The WTB CrossWolf has a pretty aggressive pattern, but a nice continuous center knob. Probably more of an aggressive all-around than a dedicated mud, but should hold its own in loose conditions. Plenty others as well.

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