To all those who believe the peleton is doping…or not
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  1. #1
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    To all those who believe the peleton is doping…or not

    If most of the peleton, let’s be conservative and say 50%, are juicers then why did the testing at the tour only catch 1 doper? In this case is it not self evident that the test is flawed?

    Conversely if I grant you that FL is a juicer and the test is accurate then he must have been the only juicer in the peleton.

    One can’t have it both ways – let me word it differently as both of the above cannot be true.

    1. The test is accurate and therefore FL was the only doper in the peleton, or

    2. The test is inaccurate and therefore failed to catch all the other dopers

    Not sure I have seen anyone ask (or answer) these obvious questions. So pick one and then try defending your point of view… Either way something is fishy!

    Safetyguy

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by safetyguy
    If most of the peleton, let’s be conservative and say 50%, are juicers then why did the testing at the tour only catch 1 doper? In this case is it not self evident that the test is flawed?

    Conversely if I grant you that FL is a juicer and the test is accurate then he must have been the only juicer in the peleton.

    One can’t have it both ways – let me word it differently as both of the above cannot be true.

    1. The test is accurate and therefore FL was the only doper in the peleton, or

    2. The test is inaccurate and therefore failed to catch all the other dopers

    Not sure I have seen anyone ask (or answer) these obvious questions. So pick one and then try defending your point of view… Either way something is fishy!

    Safetyguy
    I assume you're talking about the T/E ratio test, since that was the first test with which Landis was caught. I would say that the test is flawed, but not inaccurate. It's flawed in the sense that the threshold for a "positive" reading is set high enough, and most of the dopers and/or their handlers are sophisticated enough that they can dope and still get around this test. They can, for example, use testoserone only during training periods when they're less likely to be tested, or administer corresponding doses of epitestosterone to mask their testosterone use and avoid a positive result on this test. So a lot of testosterone dopers may be able to avoid getting caught by this test. But that does not mean that the test itself is inaccurate. When a doper and/or his handlers get careless, as Landis apparently did (either by using testosterone during the race without also taking epitestosterone to mask it, or by getting a transfusion of testestosterone-heavy blood that had been withdrawn during a training period), the test can produce an accurate positive result.

  3. #3
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    Not just the T/E test

    Stasera,

    I agree with your points. I should have been a little clearer in my initial post however. I really kind of want it both ways. On the one hand I am referring to the testing system on the whole. This would include all PED, not just the T. Perhaps it is even more damming to the testing system that no one else tested positive for any PED PERIOD (as far as I know)!

    So if they are juicing and then masking their efforts (and FL just screwed his up) then the tests (while they may be accurate) are worthless. Therefore the whole testing system is flawed (and pointless).

    Methinks this is the case as it is a fact that there are many admitted dopers who have never tested positive.

    But I could also reason that the specific method used for Testosterone is fairly flawed. That is the other pros use T but on the whole only for recovery during the off season or that FL simply messed up his masking regimen. Either way the current T/E test is not very good at catching users provided you subscribe to the idea that most pros juice.

    In any case I have come to the conclusion that the whole system itself is flawed. The pros do indeed dope, the test can be and are inaccurate, the labs and governing bodies are suspect and rife with corruption, etc, etc. I think it clear that factually the above is correct.

    I still find it hard to believe that FL would – over all of the better choices for PEDs – use T in the middle of the race. There are much better choices with much better cost/benefit ratios.

    Finally, I don’t think I have heard anybody argue that T can seriously be considered the drug of choice for pro cyclists. Yes it can definitely aid during recovery (doubtful over one evening) but on the whole will add muscle mass and water weight to the user. This may even lower the watts/kg equation. Great for sprinting but not great for climbing coles.

    … this whole affair really only makes sense in the arena of the whole system being flawed.


    Safetyguy

  4. #4
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by safetyguy
    … this whole affair really only makes sense in the arena of the whole system being flawed.
    The arguement that if the tests aren't able to detect 100% of drug use they're worthless is seriously flawed. The drug tests serve to limit which, when and how much of PED athletes can take.

    For instance how come riders almost never fail dope tests for stimulants (of any significance)? Because the tests are good at detecting them within the window of their effectiveness. How come Floyd and others get popped for testosterone these days rather than the more potent anabolic steroids? Because anabolic steroids are detectable for a long period of time, testosterone clears the system rapidly, so you trade efficacy for secrecy.

    How come guys are going to the trouble of messing with transfusions? Because they are still undetectable whereas normal EPO use is now detectable.

    Drugs like HGH and insulin are still undetectable and probably being used widely.

  5. #5
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    The best that can be accomplished is to limit riders to the normal ranges for the population. Since things like grand tours deplete levels of a number of hormones that gives a lot of latitude for replenishment without detection and always will. I don't consider that much of a health risk and may consitute an improvement so I would rather see more tests and just suspend them until they return to normal as with the HCT limits. Have a more or less level field without the scandal and destruction of the sport that they are now bringing about.

  6. #6
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    ...The arguement that if the tests aren't able to detect 100% of drug use they're worthless is seriously flawed. The drug tests serve to limit which, when and how much of PED athletes can take....

    Interesting view. So if I understand you correctly the tests really aren’t there to keep riders from doping only to limit how much they can dope. Or perhaps for the riders to also know how much they can push the limits of the tests as well as determining which masking strategies work the best.

    So I think my point of the tests being – for the most part – pointless still holds. You seem to agree with me that the peleton does juice, it’s just that the riders mask and play within the limits. So again if they are mostly all juicing but the tests system is unable to catch them - unless as in the case of Floyd he screws up a part of his protocol – the testing system itself is rather useless.
    Last edited by safetyguy; 08-15-2006 at 08:31 AM.

  7. #7
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    ...The arguement that if the tests aren't able to detect 100% of drug use they're worthless is seriously flawed. The drug tests serve to limit which, when and how much of PED athletes can take....


    Maybe what has been created is an uneasy cold war between the riders and testers. Limits have been set and as long as those limits are not exceeded and all parties play by these kind of unwritten rules, i.e. the riders dope but mask and stay with in the limits, the teams give a wink and a by to the riders, the organizers get good races, etc, etc… all is kind of OK. Hmm….

  8. #8
    donuts?
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    the odd thing about doping - there is a fine line between allowed and not allowed levels of various chemicals. the idea is to dance just up to that line and not cross it - every rider in the Tour is very close to that line - to not push it there means you loose the race. it's really that simple.

    -steve

  9. #9
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    So, are you saying that everyone in the Tour, or at least all stage and GC contenders, is doping? If that's the case then either let them or stop competitive cycling.

    It seems that many people here believe that everyone except the guys they are currently pulling for is doping. They post things on the order of "go Tommy D., finally a clean American rider" or "Boonen's back, he's really a strong rider". Of course if there is ever a leak that says one of these guys failed a drug test we'll rush to distance ourselves from him. "I knew he was too strong to not be doping."

    If everyone is doping either make it legal or stop the sport.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by almccm
    It seems that many people here believe that everyone except the guys they are currently pulling for is doping.
    At least for me that is not the case. I fully realize that there is just as good a possibility that the guys I like are doping as there is that anyone else is doping. Some of my favorite riders are known dopers (e.g. Museeuw). If Ullrich was allowed to enter the Vuelta I'd be pulling for him.

  11. #11
    bas
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    He did get the masking drugs at the right level and it failed.



    Quote Originally Posted by safetyguy
    Stasera,

    I agree with your points. I should have been a little clearer in my initial post however. I really kind of want it both ways. On the one hand I am referring to the testing system on the whole. This would include all PED, not just the T. Perhaps it is even more damming to the testing system that no one else tested positive for any PED PERIOD (as far as I know)!

    So if they are juicing and then masking their efforts (and FL just screwed his up) then the tests (while they may be accurate) are worthless. Therefore the whole testing system is flawed (and pointless).

    Methinks this is the case as it is a fact that there are many admitted dopers who have never tested positive.

    But I could also reason that the specific method used for Testosterone is fairly flawed. That is the other pros use T but on the whole only for recovery during the off season or that FL simply messed up his masking regimen. Either way the current T/E test is not very good at catching users provided you subscribe to the idea that most pros juice.

    In any case I have come to the conclusion that the whole system itself is flawed. The pros do indeed dope, the test can be and are inaccurate, the labs and governing bodies are suspect and rife with corruption, etc, etc. I think it clear that factually the above is correct.

    I still find it hard to believe that FL would – over all of the better choices for PEDs – use T in the middle of the race. There are much better choices with much better cost/benefit ratios.

    Finally, I don’t think I have heard anybody argue that T can seriously be considered the drug of choice for pro cyclists. Yes it can definitely aid during recovery (doubtful over one evening) but on the whole will add muscle mass and water weight to the user. This may even lower the watts/kg equation. Great for sprinting but not great for climbing coles.

    … this whole affair really only makes sense in the arena of the whole system being flawed.


    Safetyguy

  12. #12
    donuts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by almccm
    So, are you saying that everyone in the Tour, or at least all stage and GC contenders, is doping?
    that is exactly what i am saying. they do everything they can to enchance a rider's performance and it does not stop short of doping.

    -steve

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