So LeMond was "clean"??
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  1. #1
    always right sometimes
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    So LeMond was "clean"??

    Nobody seems to post that perhaps LeMond doped also (at least from what I have seen on this forum).

    In a sport that has an incredibly long history with doping, I just don't see how LeMond was clean during his victories, yet he seems to be on a witch hunt for anyone who may have doped....most clearly Lance....

    Is LeMond guilty of exactly what he screams is so wrong with the sport?

    The biggest FAIL ever will be if "proof"/allegations by credible sources come out that he too doped...
    Last edited by rydbyk; 07-17-2010 at 04:14 PM.

  2. #2
    flinty-eyed moderator
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    And here we go.

    /no evidence he was clean.
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand
    And here we go.

    /no evidence he was clean.
    any allegations at least? i do understand the evidence thing...just saying..

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand
    And here we go.

    /no evidence he was clean.
    But........
    Not a single soigneur, mechanic, teammate, rival or anyone else has come out of the woodwork.

    The only "whiff" is the iron injection in the presence of a journalist in the 89 Giro. He'd have to have been a prize idiot or more arrogant that LA could dream of being to dope in front of a journalist who was from the US IIRC.

    Couple that with pockets that are way shallower that LA's and I wonder if he was riding on Sprite & Burgers!

  5. #5
    bas
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk
    any allegations at least? i do understand the evidence thing...just saying..

    no there are none.

    watch the lemond story.

    he knew something was up with the other riders when he couldn't keep up.

    he was pure natural talent

  6. #6
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    Many people apply some variant of the "all champions doped, Lance was a champion, therefore Lance doped" argument. So why can't it be applied to Lemond? For some reason he is protected by some odd halo effect.

    Antequil said he only doped when absolutely necessary. When asked how often that was, he replied, "Almost always." Doping has been going on for a hundred years in the Tour and Lemond just gave it a miss? Hmmmm.

  7. #7
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    M. Indurain as well? He killed guys in his 5 wins, collapsed in his try for 6

  8. #8
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    I remember reading that Eddie B. talked about vitamin shots (or God knows what) that he recommended for some junior riders to inject, but stated that LeMond absolutely refused believing it wasn't right. LeMond does admit he did an iron shot in the 89 Giro due to anemia, but that's all that I've ever heard about him that is questionable.
    Cycling definitely has a long history of doping, but in LeMond's time it seems like the products were used more for recovery and as stimulants. With the introduction of EPO, the physiologic changes that resulted made performances increase substantially.
    I'm just a long-time cycling fan and armchair observer, but it seems possible for someone clean to compete near or even at the same level of performance as someone taking stimulants, etc. (as in the pre-EPO days). That type of doping seems to be mainly geared at endurance and surviving a 3-week race. EPO and modern techniques enhance performance significantly, in that they increase the amount of oxygen that is available to use. Just look at the times over the last 20 years up Alpe d'Huez. It is this leap in performance that LeMond attributes to his downfall and the end of his career. One could argue that Lance is in a similar position right now, riding clean knowing that he is under a microscope more so than ever before and simply cannot risk riding "enhanced" as many believe he has in the past.
    I personally don't believe Greg ever doped. I think the guy's a bit crazy at times, pretty much sues everyone, and comes across as a bitter person, but I don't think cheated. Just my 2 cents.

  9. #9
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    No, I doubt that Lemond doped. There is ZERO evidence that he did. Today, he's a bitter old wacko, but back then he was pure. I truly believe that.

    Its interesting that a number of talented cyclists in the early to mid-nineties retired when they were supposedly still capable of good performances - Steve Bauer and Greg Lemond come to mind, as well as a couple of Tour-type sprinters who suddenly couldn't buy a stage win. There are suspicions that this was the start of the EPO era, and that clean cyclists realized that without using EPO or whatever the drug of choice was, that their chances of winning were drastically reduced. We have no concrete way of knowing if that's true without someone in the know coming forward, but that idea has been floated more than once. Right around then, the average speed of the Tour started going up, especially on the mountain stages. Better training and lighter bikes can only so just so much. If nothing else, these drugs allowed riders to recover better, putting the clean ones at a fatigue disadvantage.

    Bob

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    Greg LeMond quoted in newspaper saying Lance Armstrong tried to pay individual to make doping claims
    By Nathaniel Vinton
    DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

    Saturday, July 17th 2010, 2:12 PM


    A German newspaper Saturday quoted three-time Tour de France winner Greg LeMond saying that Lance Armstrong offered an individual LeMond knows $300,000 to claim that LeMond had used erythropoietin, or EPO, the banned endurance-boosting drug.

    The allegation surfaced a day after the Daily News reported that LeMond, a three-time Tour de France champion, was served with a subpoena from a federal grand jury in Los Angeles that is investigating potential doping conspiracies on Armstrong's cycling teams.

    "I cannot say who it is, because he still works in cycling, but last year he was offered $300,000 to claim that I had used EPO," LeMond told the Sueddeutsche Zeitung, one of Germany's largest newspapers.

    The newspaper said a spokesperson for Armstrong's team called the allegation "absolutely not true" and dismissed it as "a strange story." Armstrong has categorically denied using performance-enhancing drugs and methods on his way to seven Tour de France victories.

    LeMond left cycling in the early 1990s, around the time that EPO is thought to have started gaining widespread use in the sport. Since then LeMond has become one of the most outspoken critics of the doping culture that corrupted cycling, and has become one of Armstrong's chief antagonists.

    Armstrong has faltered dramatically this month in what he says will be his final Tour de France. This spring, his former teammate, Floyd Landis, confessed to doping and told investigators he saw widespread drug use and blood transfusions on Armstrong's U.S. Postal Service cycling team when Landis was part of the team in 2002, 2003 and 2004.

    The grand jury, empanelled at the U.S. District Court for the Central District of California, is considering evidence compiled by Food and Drug Administration criminal investigator Jeff Novitzky, who uncovered the BALCO doping ring in 2003.

    In the German interview published Saturday, LeMond went on to compare Armstrong and his entourage to the mafia, and called for the resignation of the leadership of the International Cycling Union, or UCI. "It reminds me of the Catholic Church and its abuse victims," LeMond said.

    Earlier this month The News published e-mails from the UCI's former leader, Hein Verbruggen, attacking Landis as a "nuisance." Verbruggen's attorney hit Landis with a cease-and-desist letter in May. The group's current leader, Pat McQuaid, has said Landis is trying to damage cycling.

    LeMond and his wife Kathy have long felt mistreated by Armstrong's supporters, including the Trek Bicycle Corporation, an Armstrong sponsor that has also now been subpoenaed. Earlier this year, the LeMonds settled a lawsuit with Trek on confidential terms, and the grand jury has demanded documents related to that litigation.

    The News first reported last month that assistant U.S. Attorney Douglas Miller, who was involved in the BALCO case, was overseeing the cycling probe. Another federal prosecutor whose name appears on the LeMond subpoena is Miller's colleague Mark A. Williams, who last year secured convictions and prison sentences two men involved in the illegal importation of wildlife from Vietnam to the United States (customs officials caught Dong at Los Angeles International Airport hiding 14 precious Asian songbirds in his pants).

    LeMond and Armstrong have clashed ever since 2001, when LeMond spoke to a British journalist who exposed Armstrong's relationship with controversial Italian doctor Michele Ferrari. Not long after that the publication of that article, by Sunday Times writer David Walsh, Trek's CEO, John Burke, asked LeMond to retract his comments.

    LeMond has said that in a telephone conversation that summer, Armstrong threatened to find 10 people who would say that LeMond used EPO. Armstrong has disputed this characterization of the phone call, claiming that LeMond was drunk at the time - a charge that Armstrong's backers have also made about Landis since his accusations surfaced.

  11. #11
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    I am really starting to not like Lemond. He just rubs me the wrong way, and I can't help but think it's sour grapes. He's gonna drag everyone he can down, and trash cycling.

  12. #12
    LA CHEVRE
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    Might be a good thing... I like LeMond.

    DAN GEROUS

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHemlock
    Many people apply some variant of the "all champions doped, Lance was a champion, therefore Lance doped" argument. So why can't it be applied to Lemond? For some reason he is protected by some odd halo effect.

    Antequil said he only doped when absolutely necessary. When asked how often that was, he replied, "Almost always." Doping has been going on for a hundred years in the Tour and Lemond just gave it a miss? Hmmmm.
    People don't apply that argument to Lemond because (apart from it being a stupid argument) the drugs available when he was winning didn't give so much of a performance boost that a extra-talented but clean rider could not keep up. On the other hand, Anquetil raced in an era of monstrous events like the Bordeaux Paris where you honestly can't begrudge some taking speed to keep going!

    So certain riders (Lemond, Charly Mottet) have been considered absolutely clean in the late 80s. What is clear is that in the 90s the peloton sped up and Mottet, Lemond and Fignon were left behind.

  14. #14
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    Who knows if he did or didn't as there's basically no real evidence either day. Would he? No clue. However, there aren't too many mortals on this earth who would pass it up if they knew it would help and they could get away with it.

    As for Indurain, not sure either, but I thought I recalled him being somewhat sick on his last Tour and leading up to it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gerous
    Might be a good thing... I like LeMond.
    I still admire his career and remember him being on a box of Wheaties, but his smear tactics leave me slightly jaded.

  15. #15
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    Hampsten was another one who started riding backwards in the early 90's. Who knows if Lemond doped or not, but in that era talented riders certainly didn't need to in order to win.

  16. #16
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    This all will/would make an interesting movie

    So much history, secrecy, bribery, drugs, deception, he said/she said, back stabbing, money, politics, scandal, etc etc...

    What a movie this would/will make.

    My suggestions:

    Lance = ?

    Vino = D. Lundgren

    Hincapie = Ben Affleck

    Levi = Statham

    Zabriskie = Depp

    Bruyneel = Schwarzenegger

    Landis = Pee Wee Herman
    Last edited by rydbyk; 07-18-2010 at 05:47 PM.

  17. #17
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    Follow Lemond's career. From an amateur to the pro's he was a phenom. His VO Max is still one of the highest ever recorded. He's acting crazy now, but back in his day, he was in a league above most of the other riders.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk
    So much history, secrecy, bribery, drugs, deception, he said/she said, back stabbing, money, politics, scandal, etc etc...

    What a movie this would/will make.

    My suggestions:

    Lance = ?

    Hincapie = Ben Affleck

    Levi = Statham

    Bruyneel = Schwarzenegger

    Landis = Pee Wee Herman
    I thought everyone agreed Leipheimer will play Lance in any movies?

  19. #19
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    Lance said today he hopes Greg tells the truth about 1989. This gets stranger and stranger.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHemlock
    Lance said today he hopes Greg tells the truth about 1989. This gets stranger and stranger.

    Whoa...source please.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gerous
    Might be a good thing... I like LeMond.
    I'm stunned.
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHemlock
    Lance said today he hopes Greg tells the truth about 1989. This gets stranger and stranger.
    Lemond will never admit to what products he took, he's in too deep now. That era's iron clad omerta lifted a bit with Figion's cancer, but the Badger is the same way too, he can't admit to it now either.

    Landis will never stop lying about doping in the Tour he claims he "won". No matter how stupid it makes him look. Its sad, even the few remaining Landis true believers seem to agree he is flat out lying about his clumsy Testosterone doping at the tour. Seems most of the rest cherry pick the stuff they like out of his statements and ignore the more blatent lies.
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  23. #23
    LA CHEVRE
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand
    I'm stunned.
    I'm too!

    DAN GEROUS

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    : MOUNTAIN BIKING

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk
    Whoa...source please.

    Interview with French media, published in various places. . .

    "Obviously, Greg LeMond has made it his life's work to attack me," he said. "I have my passions in life and things I work on that have nothing to do with attacking people. But that's OK. He's obsessed with this. I wish him luck. I'm not at all -- zero percent -- worried about this process. You have to keep in mind that it's been 10 years of investigation and processes. They have all resulted in nothing. I have nothing to hide. There will always be people who want to pile on."

    Later on the talk show, Armstrong made a direct reference to the ongoing federal investigation, whose value he had harshly questioned last week.

    "Look, we're all going to get a chance to sit in front of the authorities and speak the truth, and I hope that Greg LeMond speaks the truth about 1989," he said. Armstrong did not explain what he meant by the allusion to the second of LeMond's three Tour victories, which LeMond won by the closest margin in history -- eight seconds -- by acing a time trial on the final day of the race.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by burgrat
    LeMond does admit he did an iron shot in the 89 Giro due to anemia...

    EPO and modern techniques enhance performance significantly, in that they increase the amount of oxygen that is available to use.
    Uh, just so we're clear here, anemia is the condition of having low red blood cell percentage in one's blood. Quantified by low hemoglobin or more commonly as a hematocrit number showing the percentage of red blood cells in the overall blood volume. Low hematocrit (anemia) is sometimes caused by iron deficiency, in which case taking iron shots will raise the body's ability to produce red blood cells. This increases the amount of oxygen that is, as you say, "avilable to use" by the muscles. EPO does the same thing, by stimulating production of red blood cells.

    These days, there are people out there who believe Lance doped last year in the TdF because his hematocrit didn't decrease like it should as the tour went on. In other words, it is now believed that it is "normal" for competitors in the TdF to get more and more anemic as the race progresses. Doing anything to "cure" that during a race, including "iron shots", would be suspicious. This is the kind of thing the blood passport was set up to analyze.
    Last edited by pacificaslim; 07-18-2010 at 05:02 PM.

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