508 fixed rules
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Thread: 508 fixed rules

  1. #1

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    Lightbulb 508 fixed rules

    A collaborative effort among many fixed gear riders has resulted in final rules for a fixed gear division for the Furnace Creek 508:

    " F. Fixed Gear - Classic Division: Bikes must use the same fixed gearing (ring/cog) for the entire event. Bike frames shall be steel, traditional double diamond design (forks are unrestricted) and wheels (maximum 25 mm rim depth) with 32 spokes minimum. Aerobar/Spinaci attachments and aero-designed parts are prohibited. Wheel switches are permitted only for wheel failures, and must be identical or essentially identical to the failed wheel. Bike switches are not permitted. Riders may not coast with feet off the pedals. Riders must declare their gear (ring/cog) choice at check in, which may not be changed thereafter.

    Fixed gear division riders may abandon that division and switch to a multispeed bike in the "open" division, then complete the race on the multispeed bike, provided that they or their crew notifies an official as soon as possible; they will then be treated as having ridden the event up to that point on the multispeed bike."


    http://the508.com/intelligence/rules.html

    What do you think? Sounds like fun, assuming the knees hold up.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougSloan
    What do you think? Sounds like fun, assuming the knees hold up.
    Ouch. That's too much pedaling for me. I'd have to coast in an event that long
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

  3. #3
    Miggity Mac Daddy
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    How many other fixed riders (that you know of) will there be? Have many people expressed interest in this?

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    too much pedaling

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hickey
    Ouch. That's too much pedaling for me. I'd have to coast in an event that long
    It's 159,766 crank revolutions in a 41x17 gear. :-)

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    hard to say

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderman
    How many other fixed riders (that you know of) will there be? Have many people expressed interest in this?
    There have been many expressing interest, but that's not the same as showing up and doing it. Only one person before has done it on a single speed (w/ freewheel). The hills on this course are among the biggest (but not steepest, thank goodness) in the United States, so get both up and down in the same fixed gear will be tough. There is 35,000 feet of climbing in 508 miles, which is equivalent of 5 centuries with 7,000 feet climbing each. Some hills go on for over 20 miles, and you can have a headwind on them, too.

    I want to myself, but don't know if I can get the training time in and ensure I won't hurt my knees too much. I'm sure others are in the same boat. Then there is the 48 hour cut-off, too. I did it in 36:47 last time, but I figure that even all else equal, which it isn't, I'll lose 2-3 hours on the descents alone (at 25 mph instead of 50-60).

    I could be the only one or no one at all. The bailout provision is incentive to give it a try, though, and if the knees can't handle it, switch to the triple bike and finish.

  6. #6
    BS the DC
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    Imagine

    That conjured up an image of a bunch of guys flying down a mountain at 55 mph with their legs sticking straight out to the side while their crank arms are spinning at 200 rpm.
    "The team wasn't just riders. It was the mechanics, masseurs, chefs, soigneurs, and doctors. But the most important man on the team may have been the chiropractor."

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  7. #7
    angel of the morning
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    dude that is extreme ..... it can't be good for you

    but us humans are kinda strange and capable of many extreme things just to get our kicks ....

    Frequency of orgasm has, like most other male sexual parameters, often been taken as defining sexual worth. The more orgasms the better, has been a general cry. It would not help the ego of most men to learn they can generally be beaten in this area by young boys. In the Kinsey data, in a series of 182 observed cases, 81 of the preadolescent boys achieved orgasm only once. 17 achieved it twice, 42 achieved it three, four or five times in succession, 30 achieved it from six to ten times in succession and 12 achieved it more than ten times in succession. The undisputed record was twenty-one orgasms in a row. One eleven-month-old baby boy managed fourteen orgasms in thirty-eight minutes, one eleven-year-old had eleven orgasms in an hour; a fourteen-year-old had eleven orgasms in four hours, and so on and so forth. It should be remembered that such startling multi orgasmic capabilities are generally lost at the time when orgasm is accompanied by the ejaculation of semen. At the same time there are some adult men who achieve high orgasmic performance over a long period. Kinsey records the case of one man who had three orgasms a day over a period of thirty years, and one who averaged 33.1 orgasms a week over a thirty-year period.

    kinda makes 508 miles on a fixie seem like a doddle doesn't it? i start thinking where on earth do people come up with data & studies like that but then again 508 miles up & down serious climbs on a fixie is just as incredulous to me as well.

    whatever floats your boat i guess - vive le difference

    ciao


    From The Illustrated Book of Sexual Records.
    Last edited by Spirito; 02-24-2004 at 11:48 AM.
    I watched him walking in and it was like they say, you know, he kind of glowed. Like a ray of light was around him. A kind of Jesus. - Spirito (interviewing Spirito)

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  8. #8
    Game on, b*tches!
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    ????????

    I was wondering where you were going with that;)
    Originally Posted by tetter
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    "Karma is spread in lots of different ways. You know, like herpes."
    catzilla
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  9. #9

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    coasting strictly forbidden

    Quote Originally Posted by bsdc
    That conjured up an image of a bunch of guys flying down a mountain at 55 mph with their legs sticking straight out to the side while their crank arms are spinning at 200 rpm.
    That would seem the obvious solution, but definitely cheating (read the fine print). I've tried that, and getting your feet back on the pedals is not fun, nor safe. It would be very tempting, though, as you could coast at 50-60 mph instead of spinning your butt off to get 25 mph, and be a lot more rested at the bottom of the hill. Even if you had to come to a complete stop at the bottom to re-clip, you'd still save about 30 minutes on some of these descents. It would be a very easy way to cheat, but then it would be darn obvious if an official pulled alongside ;-)

  10. #10
    Non non normal
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    Why only steel frames?
    "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." --A. Einstein

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    Question Yeah. And what about steel with carbon stays?

    The wheel sort of make sense but some of us are on non-steel fixies-I feel so left out

    Oh yeah, I guess I don't really care because there is just no figgin' way! If it isn't the 500 miles thru the desert that kills you it's the 20 mile climbs. If you somehow survive, you still have 20 mile leg-flailing descents. Clearly the "restrictions" are the least of the problems.

    "Yeah dude, I would have made it if I could have just run my disk wheel!" <-sarcasm...

    Would you happen to know the gearing of the guy that did it on a single speed?

  12. #12

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    man-o-man! that ride would be grueling in a Chevette, i can't imagine it on a bike!!!

    waaaay back in the day-- when fixed was the only technology available, the riders had foot pegs on the front axle as a solution to the 'descent problem'.


    Then, in 1947 engineers were able to more fully develop the the concept by widening the foot platform--and removing the bike ride, creating what's known today as "the Lazy-Boy". hehee..

  13. #13
    Arrogant roadie.....
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    ....you must be nuts.......
    We are the 801
    We are the central shaft

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Stohler
    ....you must be nuts.......
    Speaking of nuts.....In your movie, how did you clamp your knees to the top tube and raise your hands if you were riding a fixed gear track bike?

    By the way, you have one of the most clever screen names. I wonder how many people think your name is really Dave Stohler?
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

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    single speeds

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hickey
    Speaking of nuts.....In your movie, how did you clamp your knees to the top tube and raise your hands if you were riding a fixed gear track bike?

    By the way, you have one of the most clever screen names. I wonder how many people think your name is really Dave Stohler?
    If you are referring to the Little Indy, I'm pretty sure they were single speeds, not fixed gears. Lots of coasting going on, especially in the transitions. Just watched it again a couple of days ago and specifically remember thinking about that.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougSloan
    If you are referring to the Little Indy, I'm pretty sure they were single speeds, not fixed gears. Lots of coasting going on, especially in the transitions. Just watched it again a couple of days ago and specifically remember thinking about that.
    Did they coast or skid during transitions? It's been a long time since I've seen the movie. At the finish, I remember thinking " Hey if that's a track bike, how did he clamp his knees to the top tube?".

    Not that it makes a difference, I still enjoyed the movie....
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

  17. #17
    i like whiskey
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    Interesting observations in sports movies

    I love watching movies and trying to pick out the incongruities (sp?) between the action on the screen and what would happen in real life. Sports movies are particularly guilty in this respect. I would have never picked up on this little aspect in that cycling movie, but now I'm going to have to go get the DVD (if they have it) and watch it again.

    One really bad instance was in Tin Cup. On the first day of the US Open he shoots an 83 or so, which would be about 13 over par for a US Open. Suddenly he's making a run at the top of the leader board on Saturday. With the average cut at the US Open being maybe +6, this would mean that he had to shoot a 62/63 on Friday just to make the cut. He'd have to shoot another 62/63 to get to even par and near the top of the leader board. Kind of doubtful the way they set up a US Open course. And there is no way that he gets enough spin on a 3-wood to back it off the green on 18. Maybe with a sand wedge, but not a 3-wood.

    Sorry to turn this into golf talk :-)

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    what movie are you guys talking about, and yes, i thought it was his real name

  19. #19
    i like whiskey
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    Breaking Away (nm)

    ((nm))

  20. #20

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    steel frames

    Quote Originally Posted by bigrider
    Why only steel frames?
    The promoter came up with that one. I think he envisioned a more classic or pure division here, even more so than the final rules shows. He had also once considered only drop bars, steel fork, 25 mm or wider tires, and no wheel switches allowed, too. There was a fair amount of compromise in the rules, but the steel part stuck. No weight weenie or tri-geek bikes allowed. ;-)

  21. #21
    Old and Fixed, Moderator
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    Doug, do you subscribe to this list?

    http://lists.davintech.ca/mailman/listinfo/fixed-gear

    There's been a lot of discussion the last couple of days about the 508.
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

  22. #22

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    no

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hickey
    Doug, do you subscribe to this list?

    http://lists.davintech.ca/mailman/listinfo/fixed-gear

    There's been a lot of discussion the last couple of days about the 508.
    No, I didn't know about it, I don't think. Thanks, I'll check it out.

  23. #23

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    post there

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hickey
    Doug, do you subscribe to this list?

    http://lists.davintech.ca/mailman/listinfo/fixed-gear

    There's been a lot of discussion the last couple of days about the 508.
    Thanks again. Here's my post I did there, in response to several people discussing the rules:

    Hey, folks. I'm new here, having been referred to the list from someone at Road Bike Review.

    I worked very closely with the Furnace Creek 508 promoter, Chris Kostman, and others interested, in preparing the rules for a fixed gear division. Essentially, I think it was my prodding that caused Kostman to consider this.

    I have done the 508 twice, once in 2001 as a solo in 36:47 and then as a four man team in 2002 ( http://www.midcalracing.com/5082001/5082001.htm ). I have ridden many areas of the course during other events and individually, too. There is something about that course that is very enticing and challenging. The hills are monstrous, and with 35,000 feet of climbing in 508 miles, it's the equivalent of doing 5 centuries with 7,000 feet climbing each. However, none of the climbs are extremely steep. The worst is "Townes Pass" that is between Panamint Valley and Death Valley ( http://the508.com/thejourney/routeshow/index.htm ). It tops out around 12% for limited stretches, but on average is less than 8%. The climb is shorter than the following descent in to Death Valley, where I have twice hit 64 mph on the descent (once at night).

    The early climbs are shorter, but not ignorable, but the latter climbs from Death Valley on can stretch for 20 miles or more at 2-5% grades. Same types of descents, too.

    I have spent more and more time training on a fixed gear in central California, including climbs of up to 4,000 feet in the mountains, sometimes on grades exceeding 18%. I have geared lower and lower, experimenting with what my knees can tolerate, settling presently on a 41x17, which means descending frequently at a continuous 150 or more rpms.

    I thought that since fixed gear riding is so much fun, and so much of a different challenge compared to multi-speed/aero bikes, that it would be a fun challenge to do the 508 this way. I floated this out to the ultra community, and lots of people agreed. No doubt every single person has his or her own idea of whether this was a good idea and what rules should govern. This *is* a race, so you must have some type of rules. We concurred that the most essential part of the rules, to distinguish it from other divisions, would be to require the same gear the entire time, and no coasting. After that, the division could have gone many different ways, ranging from a tricked out Cervelo P3 to an all steel "Eddy Merckx" type bike. The promoter believed that in addition to the fixed angle, he wanted somewhat of a retro angle, too, to further distinguish the division from others and create a bit more of a challenge. Prior iterations of the rules called for drop bars, steel fork and threaded headsets/stems, 25mm minimum width tires, etc., but there was a bit of "negotiation" and we settled on somewhat of a compromise in the present rules, as follows:

    "F. Fixed Gear - Classic Division: Bikes must use the same fixed gearing (ring/cog) for the entire event. Bike frames shall be steel, traditional double diamond design (forks are unrestricted) and wheels (maximum 25 mm rim depth) with 32 spokes minimum. Aerobar/Spinaci attachments and aero-designed parts are prohibited. Wheel switches are permitted only for wheel failures, and must be identical or essentially identical to the failed wheel. Bike switches are not permitted. Riders may not coast with feet off the pedals. Riders must declare their gear (ring/cog) choice at check in, which may not be changed thereafter.

    "Fixed gear division riders may abandon that division and switch to a multispeed bike in the "open" division, then complete the race on the multispeed bike, provided that they or their crew notifies an official as soon as possible; they will then be treated as having ridden the event up to that point on the multispeed bike."

    http://the508.com/intelligence/rules.html

    Within those rules, you can use any handlebar, such as cowhorns, any fork, etc., are there are relatively few restrictions. The consensus was that the division needed to be fairly distinguished from the open division by more than the fixed gearing itself.

    I'm preparing my "racing" fixed gear bike right now. While I have trained on my Bianchi Pista (with front brake) pretty much stock until now, the racing bike will be a Bianchi Alloro (1998) with Dedacciai Zero Uno steel tubing, with an Easton carbon fork, etc., in efforts to get it reasonably light but reliable, somewhat pushing the rules to their limits. Hey, that's racing.

    Note that all *racing* has equipment rules, especially bike racing. That's been a part of the sport for over 100 years. So, this division needed some rules, too, and this is what we came up with. Keep in mind that a fair part of that decision was "marketing," in effect, attempting to make the division different enough to attract people to do it.

    Sure, some part of the rules are designed to prevent "cheating," as that also is part of bike rules for any kind of racing. If the essence of the goal of the event is riding the whole way in one fixed gear, then if you did not spefically ban coasting with feet of pedals, people would sure as heck do it; that's impairing the event, and probably dangerous at 64 mph! It has nothing to so with an assumption that people will cheat, but definitely with an assumption that people will take advantage of the rules to the extent possible. I would.

    Ultimately, this is the promoter's event and he can draw up any rules he sees fit. However, please note that he did so after 6 months of lots of people providing input, and always with a decent rationale for the decisions.

    Doug Sloan
    Fresno, CA

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    The Little Indy bikes are coaster-brake Road Masters, basically crappo Huffys with drop bars on them. Then again, the only kids who really ride in that race are frat members. I don't remember ever riding with any frat guys when I went to college.

    -Pedro
    "Speak softly and carry a big stick." -T.R. Roosevelt

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    Mr. Sloan, where did you get this map?

    i see this fine link with the route outlined on a topo. what/where is it available?
    Sure beats my version of Streets 98!!
    http://the508.com/thejourney/routesh...rttomojave.htm

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