Aero advantages are lost in cross winds
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  1. #1
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    Aero advantages are lost in cross winds

    Hello,

    I have an old Giant TCR. I am considering my next bike.

    Aero is all the rage, BUT I was surprised when I put a wheelset on my TCR that had flat bladed vs round spokes, --I saw a massive penalty when riding in crosswinds. I was amazed at just a few millimeters of a flat bladed spoke caught a large amount of wind. Anything over 8mph was very distinctly affecting my riding.... I can't imagine the flat frames and wheelsets of the aero bikes in a crosswind.

    But then you have the new TCR's with flat downtubes that just SUCK watts out of your riding (yes even the new 2021 tcr excuse for aero). Gosh, I long for the days of plain jane round tubes. Seems to be the best weight and wind design. My 2008 TCR was plenty stiff enough with it's round tubes that didn't act like sails.

    First bike makers brought us the press fit BB, now they are giving us over engineered bike frames and wheels... I hate modern bikes.
    Last edited by KiloKilo7; 04-17-2020 at 09:01 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiloKilo7 View Post
    Hello,

    I have an old Giant TCR. I am considering my next bike.

    Aero is all the rage, BUT I was surprised when I put a wheelset on my TCR that had flat bladed vs round spokes, --I saw a massive penalty when riding in crosswinds. I was amazed at just a few millimeters of a flat bladed spoke caught a large amount of wind. Anything over 8mph was very distinctly affecting my riding.... I can't imagine the flat frames and wheelsets of the aero bikes in a crosswind.

    But then you have the new TCR's with flat downtubes that just SUCK watts out of your riding (yes even the new 2021 tcr excuse for aero). Gosh, I long for the days of plain jane round tubes. Seems to be the best weight and wind design. My 2008 TCR was plenty stiff enough with it's round tubes that didn't act like sails.

    First bike makers brought us the press fit BB, now they are giving us over engineered bike frames and wheels... I hate modern bikes.
    It seems like you're talking about bike feel, not about watts. Are you saying that a power meter is telling you that you are going slower at the same watts? Aero stuff is nearly always advantageous in reducing watts, but that doesn't mean it makes for a more pleasant ride. This is the reason that despite all the data, people haven't switched totally to aero stuff. Getting blown around in the group or on solo rides is no fun, even though it might shave some watts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Irons View Post
    This is the reason that despite all the data, people haven't switched totally to aero stuff. Getting blown around in the group or on solo rides is no fun, even though it might shave some watts.
    Shaving xx watts would be somewhat offset by turning a 10 miles TT, for example, in to a 10.whatever mile TT by swerving all over the road too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Irons View Post
    It seems like you're talking about bike feel, not about watts. Are you saying that a power meter is telling you that you are going slower at the same watts? Aero stuff is nearly always advantageous in reducing watts, but that doesn't mean it makes for a more pleasant ride. This is the reason that despite all the data, people haven't switched totally to aero stuff. Getting blown around in the group or on solo rides is no fun, even though it might shave some watts.
    aaah, I can't even understand what you are saying. I can swap in/out round spokes and flat bladed spoked wheelsets. The only "feeling" is that of being pushed around by the cross wind and having to fight to keep a straight line (when using flat bladed spokes). No problem with round spokes. Yet, I am to believe that I can ride a frame that has 2 to 3x more side surface area than my 2008 TCR with round tubes, and a cross wind won't slow me down?!?!?!?

    Sometimes I really think these forums are trolled by bike industry people trying to get everyone to drink cool aid... I will say it again I HATE MODERN BIKES! BB30 !!! Internal cabling!!! Super high prices!!! and now frames that are only good if you are riding in a wind tunnel, or on the tarmac with no wind at all!!! aaaaarg!!

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    Massive whatts? Let see the numbers.
    I think you would have been blown around on any bike.
    If your talking about a headwind, aero advantage.
    If your talking about a 40deg headwind, probably a wash.
    If your talking about a 90deg wind, your probably right.

    Do you ever do a route with turns, which would be going a different direction.
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  6. #6
    'brifter' is f'ing stupid
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiloKilo7 View Post
    aaah, I can't even understand what you are saying. I can swap in/out round spokes and flat bladed spoked wheelsets. The only "feeling" is that of being pushed around by the cross wind and having to fight to keep a straight line (when using flat bladed spokes). No problem with round spokes. Yet, I am to believe that I can ride a frame that has 2 to 3x more side surface area than my 2008 TCR with round tubes, and a cross wind won't slow me down?!?!?!?

    Sometimes I really think these forums are trolled by bike industry people trying to get everyone to drink cool aid... I will say it again I HATE MODERN BIKES! BB30 !!! Internal cabling!!! Super high prices!!! and now frames that are only good if you are riding in a wind tunnel, or on the tarmac with no wind at all!!! aaaaarg!!
    Do you often shout at clouds when you're outside?
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    Massive whatts? Let see the numbers.
    I think you would have been blown around on any bike.
    If your talking about a headwind, aero advantage.
    If your talking about a 40deg headwind, probably a wash.
    If your talking about a 90deg wind, your probably right.

    Do you ever do a route with turns, which would be going a different direction.
    You can keep your old bike, I'll keep my new one.
    I am just making a legitimate observation. If just a few millimeters of spoke creates massive side vectors not in line with the desired vector -that is a serious and reasonable argument against the bike industry hype that aero reduces your energy expelled and watts burned.

    My other observation is that the bike industry makes more money off hyped up designs, than the tried and true designs.
    Last edited by KiloKilo7; 04-18-2020 at 08:26 AM.

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    Not at all. I am so effortlessly riding on my simple, round tubed bike, I am admiring the world's beauty.... But I am shouting at the bike industry that is selling us a load of high priced carbon cracking crap.

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    Is RBR taking nominations for the Retro Grouch committee?

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    My new bike wasn't 'HYPED' as aero. I still ride it in the wind. ....sometimes.~
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiloKilo7 View Post
    ...Gosh, I long for the days of plain jane round tubes... I hate modern bikes.
    I don't get it... round tube bike frames are just as readily available today as they ever were... why don't you just buy one?

    https://www.cyclingnews.com/features...el-road-bikes/



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  12. #12
    'brifter' is f'ing stupid
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiloKilo7 View Post
    Not at all. I am so effortlessly riding on my simple, round tubed bike, I am admiring the world's beauty.... But I am shouting at the bike industry that is selling us a load of high priced carbon cracking crap.
    Think about this for a minute...try to name ONE single industry that doesn't rely on 'new and improved' to sell their product.
    #promechaniclife

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    You can actually tell the handling difference between round and aero spokes with the same depth wheel? How many mattresses do you need between you and the pea, princess?
    Well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion man. - The Dude

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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Think about this for a minute...try to name ONE single industry that doesn't rely on 'new and improved' to sell their product.
    Antique malls
    Gravel Rocks

    Trek Domane
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    Niner RLT9 RDO
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    Trek Crockett

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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    Antique malls
    Even that business is prone to it. There's loads of examples of things I remember as just regular crap that virtually everyone had in the 70's all of a sudden being the latest and greatest "antique" when just prior it was a 10 cent yardsale item.

    For example: https://www.antiques-atlas.com/antiq...rial/bakelite/

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Think about this for a minute...try to name ONE single industry that doesn't rely on 'new and improved' to sell their product.
    Can't wait for my iPhone 12!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    Can't wait for my iPhone 12!

    At least they are finally putting the speaker @ your ear and the mic at your mouth!
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Think about this for a minute...try to name ONE single industry that doesn't rely on 'new and improved' to sell their product.
    Ipecac syrup maybe? Even that is probably a mild maybe at best. All I could think of off the top of my head.
    Interwebs bumpersticker goes here

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Think about this for a minute...try to name ONE single industry that doesn't rely on 'new and improved' to sell their product.
    Mortuaries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ogre View Post
    Mortuaries.
    yeah, that industry has been dead for years, many years.
    Gravel Rocks

    Trek Domane
    Niner RLT9 (Gravel Bike)
    Niner RLT9 RDO
    BH G7 Disc
    Trek Crockett

    "The Spirit of the Party "serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    yeah, that industry has been dead for years, many years.
    And why do they put fences around cemeteries?
    Too old to ride plastic

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Think about this for a minute...try to name ONE single industry that doesn't rely on 'new and improved' to sell their product.

    I LOVE innovation that works for cyclists. I hate innovation that ONLY exists to make bike industry people more money. BB30, yeah!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChipper View Post
    You can actually tell the handling difference between round and aero spokes with the same depth wheel? How many mattresses do you need between you and the pea, princess?
    Yep, my entire riding club can. We have all commented on how it is definitely harder to maintain control with flat bladed spokes on a windy day. And many of the guys that bought aero bikes regret doing so because they feel limited on any days with wind over 9mph.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiloKilo7 View Post
    aaah, I can't even understand what you are saying.
    Really? What conclusion should we draw from that?

    You seem to be saying that the "massive penalty" is one of poor handling, not of the power required to move the bike down the road. Since you were in no way specific as to what the penalty was, I simply assumed you were talking power, and asked for some power numbers. And then you equate the known handling issues from aero designs to causing you to be slower. They don't.

    And please don't call me an industry troll. I ride low profile rims with 32 round spokes and a standard frame. I made the point explicitly that the reason aero stuff has not taken over the market is because ALTHOUGH it has proven power reduction benefit, the poor handling that results puts most people off. I was agreeing with your complaint but showing you that your belief in power consumption cost was wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Irons View Post
    Really? What conclusion should we draw from that?

    You seem to be saying that the "massive penalty" is one of poor handling, not of the power required to move the bike down the road. Since you were in no way specific as to what the penalty was, I simply assumed you were talking power, and asked for some power numbers. And then you equate the known handling issues from aero designs to causing you to be slower. They don't.

    And please don't call me an industry troll. I ride low profile rims with 32 round spokes and a standard frame. I made the point explicitly that the reason aero stuff has not taken over the market is because ALTHOUGH it has proven power reduction benefit, the poor handling that results puts most people off. I was agreeing with your complaint but showing you that your belief in power consumption cost was wrong.
    Sorry if I came off wrong. I just do not understand how someone can acknowledge that there are forces acting upon the side profile of the frame/wheels (ie a vector force that is perpendicular to the desired linear vector) without there being a penalty that will offset any aero gain? Seems like simple science. It is a higher form of friction on the frame (from the crosswind). I googled this, and the bike makers seem to do a lot of double talking on the issue of crosswinds. Meanwhile, as I gather information, it seems every person I have talked to says their aerobikes are worse than their climbing bikes when wind increases. My own experience with flat bladed spokes also indicates this. Which leads me to conclude aero hype has over take common sense.

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