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  1. #1
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    Campy goes 12 speed

    This thread is really an addendum to excellent conversation resulting from the lack of benefit of recent tech advances as discussed in Belgianhammer’s thread exposing how pro riders aren’t using much of the modern tech being pushed by large companies like Specialized in the Paris Roubaix race. Within that thread a poster adroitly pointed out why companies have to so called innovate, to create a ‘different’ but not necessarily better mousetrap to set themselves apart from the competition in an effort to create a market and therefore demand to sell product and generate higher profit. That is the reality and in particular the new Roubaix bicycle showcases what is wrong with that equation as many have complained about the noisy Future Shock and having buyer’s remorse. Of course, all too many have been there with aerobikes riding rough, press fit bottom brackets creakiing and god awful integratedstem/handlebar bikes where cable routing goes through the stem. A long list of failure for so called marketing ‘exclusivity’... the customer pays for in terms of increased maintenance and/or performance tradeoffs.

    Here comes Campy with 12 speed:
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/campagnolo-12-speed-record-and-super-record-groups-launch/

    https://youtu.be/coRDA1xpeMU

    Now I am a Campy mechanical guy. That is my groupset of choice. Just want to say, I have both a 10s and 11s Campy bike. I notice virtually no difference between 10s and 11s while out riding. None. I don’t need not only broader gearing or tighter gearing.
    I like many here have owned 8s and 9s bikes…both on and off road. I never felt any longing for more gearing then either. Was pretty happy with each. But when owning the next evolution aka one more cog in back, once I hit 10s, I never longed for more in back and owning and riding both Campy and DA 9000 11s, I never felt 11s was an improvement.
    I will say further, look how Campy has executed their new 12s. They did it with the same real estate freehub in back. One more cog crammed in back resulting in less space between cogs and thinner cogs and thinner chain.

    This does four things:

    a. A smaller chain typically reduces durability due to higher force per unit area.
    b. Thinner cogs are weaker due to reduced strength which suffer the same lack of wear resistance
    c. Less space between cogs for same cassette width translates to greater sensitivity to cross chaining because of tendency of chain to rub on adjacent cogs based upon reduced space.
    d. Set up is more sensitive by design with smaller space between more cogs based upon cable pull. Error is compounded based upon the rear derailleur traveling the same overall distance with more stops along the way.

    In summary, you are going to pay more for this so called ‘innovation’for less durability and possibly lower performance and/or set up sensitivity. I don’t want it. I could have easily converted my 10s Campy bike to 11s for example by simply changing the RH shifter body with different no. detents and pull ratio, a different cassette and different chain. A low cost transition. Never felt the need. I don’t believe 11s is better than 10s. I don’t fight 11s much but to me, its completely unnecessary. I feel even more strongly about 12s because the tradeoffs are even more profound for each added cog in back without changing freehub width resulting in need to increase frame dropout spacing.

    My take. Will others follow? Inevitably. No stopping the mad march into oblivion. Same dynamic as with previous cog increases. In design parlence which has been a bitter lesson repeated too often...from outboard bearing BSA to one of many press fit variants of bottom bracket out there…there is no free lunch. Pick your poison carefully and drink responsibly.
    Last edited by 11spd; 04-12-2018 at 03:52 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    This thread is really an addendum to excellent conversation resulting from the lack of benefit of recent tech advances as discussed in Belgianhammer’s thread exposing how pro riders aren’t using much of the modern tech being pushed by large companies like Specialized in the Paris Roubaix race. Within that thread a poster adroitly pointed out why companies have to so called innovate, to create a ‘different’ but not necessarily better mousetrap to set themselves apart from the competition in an effort to create a market and therefore demand to sell product and generate higher profit. That is the reality and in particular the new Roubaix bicycle showcases what is wrong with that equation as many have complained about the noisy Future Shock and having buyer’s remorse. Of course, all too many have been there with aerobikes riding rough, press fit bottom brackets creakiing and god awful integratedstem/handlebar bikes where cable routing goes through the stem. A long list of failure for so called marketing ‘exclusivity’... the customer pays for in terms of increased maintenance and/or performance tradeoffs.

    Here comes Campy with 12 speed:
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/campagnolo-12-speed-record-and-super-record-groups-launch/

    https://youtu.be/coRDA1xpeMU

    Now I am a Campy mechanical guy. That is my groupset of choice. Just want to say, I have both a 10s and 11s Campy bike. I notice virtually no difference between 10s and 11s while out riding. None. I don’t need not only broader gearing or tighter gearing.
    I like many here have owned 8s and 9s bikes…both on and off road. I never felt any longing for more gearing then either. Was pretty happy with each. But when owning the next evolution aka one more cog in back, once I hit 10s, I never longed for more in back and owning and riding both Campy and DA 9000 11s, I never felt 11s was an improvement.
    I will say further, look how Campy has executed their new 12s. They did it with the same real estate freehub in back. One more cog crammed in back resulting in less space between cogs and thinner cogs and thinner chain.

    This does four things:

    a. A smaller chain typically reduces durability due to higher force per unit area.
    b. Thinner cogs are weaker due to reduced strength which suffer the same lack of wear resistance
    c. Less space between cogs for same cassette width translates to greater sensitivity to cross chaining because of tendency of chain to rub on adjacent cogs based upon reduced space.
    d. Set up is more sensitive by design with smaller space between more cogs based upon cable pull. Error is compounded based upon the rear derailleur traveling the same overall distance with more stops along the way.

    In summary, you are going to pay more for this so called ‘innovation’for less durability and possibly lower performance and/or set up sensitivity. I don’t want it. I could have easily converted my 10s Campy bike to 11s for example by simply changing the RH shifter body with different no. detents and pull ratio, a different cassette and different chain. A low cost transition. Never felt the need. I don’t believe 11s is better than 10s. I don’t fight 11s much but to me, its completely unnecessary. I feel even more strongly about 12s because the tradeoffs are even more profound for each added cog in back without changing freehub width resulting in need to increase frame dropout spacing.

    My take. Will others follow? Inevitably. No stopping the mad march into oblivion. Same dynamic as with previous cog increases. In design parlence which has been a bitter lesson repeated too often...from outboard bearing BSA to one of many press fit variants of bottom bracket out there…there is no free lunch. Pick your poison carefully and drink responsibly.
    The best thing that could happen here is for Shimano and SRAM to do... absolutely nothing. I see this as a dumb move on Campy's part. I don't think consumers are screaming out for more gears and I doubt Shimano users are going switch because of this. I assume this means Campy has invented another overpriced, proprietary chain tool too.

  3. #3
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    Always push on and "improve" right? Otherwise we'd all be riding steel bikes. Seems like about half the "improvements" are actually good. Clipless pedals, STI/Ergo shifting, synthetic chamois shorts ... some of the good things I can think of. 12-speed drive train? No. I went from 9-speed (which I was completely happy with) to 11-speed a few years ago. Seems like most of the shifting I do is more than one cog at a time. So another cog isn't going to make me better off. I do like the ability to put really big cassettes on the newer Campy and Shimano stuff.

    I think Campy is desperate. Their market share must be way down. Remember when every rider to win the TDF was on a Campy equipped bike (so called Shimano curse)? They must think that if they're the first company to come out with 12 speed, everyone will want to have it because 12 is better than 11. Sign me up for a $1000 crank and $300 chain tool. Not.

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    Let’s dont forget the most important thing to me and my Protos build. The 12s look bad. Terrible step back in terms of appearance.

    I wonder if they will stop selling the 11s with the nice carbon weave. I got a “we don’t know if anymore will be available” from a Merlin sales rep.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    Always push on and "improve" right? Otherwise we'd all be riding steel bikes. Seems like about half the "improvements" are actually good. Clipless pedals, STI/Ergo shifting, synthetic chamois shorts ... some of the good things I can think of. 12-speed drive train? No. I went from 9-speed (which I was completely happy with) to 11-speed a few years ago. Seems like most of the shifting I do is more than one cog at a time. So another cog isn't going to make me better off. I do like the ability to put really big cassettes on the newer Campy and Shimano stuff.

    I think Campy is desperate. Their market share must be way down. Remember when every rider to win the TDF was on a Campy equipped bike (so called Shimano curse)? They must think that if they're the first company to come out with 12 speed, everyone will want to have it because 12 is better than 11. Sign me up for a $1000 crank and $300 chain tool. Not.
    I think you nailed it. Believe we are seeing a bit more desperation these days which may bode well for companies like Lynskey with reasonably priced Ti bikes available in different geoemtries and BSA and external cable routing. If there is a watt or two lost in the translation, it won't mean of hill of beans to the average rider. I am all for tech but when diminishing return and outright compromise reverses any gains, then change can be more harmful than good.

    But yes, innovation by and large is positive and up to the consumer to decide which innovation gets the nod. No more precipitous decisions than electric shifting versus mechanical...frame material, deep carbon wheels or lightweight Al wheels, contentious disc versus rim brakes which profoundly affects frame design...such a long list.

    Average guy I talk to looking for a new bike who walks into a bike shop is completely clueless of course. I talk to neighbors all the time looking for a road bike and ask me what to get. If they are rich, price point matters a bit less and many want bling even though there is virtually no advantage.

    Because I am old, I remember a time when bikes were much more homogenous. Yes, there were high end bikes back then as well and we all know what happened to Schwinn who wasn't willing or able to innovate.

    Not sure if Campy is desperate. I ride it 'only' because I prefer the shifting ergonomics of separate button and lever and uber comfortable hoods which I believe is truly better than DA or Red. Others this matters a bit less to...or believe that Di2 or Etap ergos are better as shifting is made easier. Hood comfort is subjective. I think they all look just fine and agree, Super Record is ridiculously priced. $1K for a crank is ridiculous and never owned the chain tool because I have always used a KMC missing link on my Campy drivelines even with Ultegra chains which were meant to be riveted until Shimano finally woke up to what consumers wanted as well.

  6. #6
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    I got away from those stupid chain pins years ago. Amazing that Shimano took so long go to links which are easier to install and impossible to screw up. There's a $35 Lezene (sp?) tool that works for Campy chains. My bike shop has the $200 one -- looks cool, but come on, a $200 chain tool?

    I rode Dura Ace 7700 for years. It didn't get "improved" every year. It was a good, solid group that stayed the same for what these days is an eternity. Back then, this years Chorus was last year's Record every year. I liked how Shimano didn't constantly "improve" the group.

    I recall the late Steve Tilford saying, 'I think the sweet spot was 8-speed'. At some point, more isn't better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    I got away from those stupid chain pins years ago. Amazing that Shimano took so long go to links which are easier to install and impossible to screw up. There's a $35 Lezene (sp?) tool that works for Campy chains. My bike shop has the $200 one -- looks cool, but come on, a $200 chain tool?

    I rode Dura Ace 7700 for years. It didn't get "improved" every year. It was a good, solid group that stayed the same for what these days is an eternity. Back then, this years Chorus was last year's Record every year. I liked how Shimano didn't constantly "improve" the group.

    I recall the late Steve Tilford saying, 'I think the sweet spot was 8-speed'. At some point, more isn't better.
    Remember when Shimano screwed the pooch and went to DA7900 with under handlebar tape cable routing with higher internal friction which cause laggy shifting on internally routed bikes?...lol. In Shimano's effort to emulate Campy who also F-ed up with their first foray into 10s Ultrashift with under bar tape routing, Shimano didn't increase rear derailleur spring rate to compensate.

    They many if not most times don't get it right first time out of the gate. Eventually they fix it after performing their beta testing on us...their customers who just must have the next new, shiny thing...suckers we are...lol.

  8. #8
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    12 speed makes good sense .. for 1x builds. very very good sense. it's taking over mountain biking now. cyclocross and gravel too maybe

    as for road - I think most of us with hills and mtns nearby want a FD, so no need for 12sp cassettes. on the flatter regions - 1x12 might be great
    Last edited by BCSaltchucker; 04-12-2018 at 09:40 AM.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    This thread is really an addendum to excellent conversation resulting from the lack of benefit of recent tech advances as discussed in Belgianhammer’s thread exposing how pro riders aren’t using much of the modern tech being pushed by large companies like Specialized in the Paris Roubaix race. Within that thread a poster adroitly pointed out why companies have to so called innovate, to create a ‘different’ but not necessarily better mousetrap to set themselves apart from the competition in an effort to create a market and therefore demand to sell product and generate higher profit. That is the reality and in particular the new Roubaix bicycle showcases what is wrong with that equation as many have complained about the noisy Future Shock and having buyer’s remorse. Of course, all too many have been there with aerobikes riding rough, press fit bottom brackets creakiing and god awful integratedstem/handlebar bikes where cable routing goes through the stem. A long list of failure for so called marketing ‘exclusivity’... the customer pays for in terms of increased maintenance and/or performance tradeoffs.

    Here comes Campy with 12 speed:
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/campagnolo-12-speed-record-and-super-record-groups-launch/

    https://youtu.be/coRDA1xpeMU

    Now I am a Campy mechanical guy. That is my groupset of choice. Just want to say, I have both a 10s and 11s Campy bike. I notice virtually no difference between 10s and 11s while out riding. None. I don’t need not only broader gearing or tighter gearing.
    I like many here have owned 8s and 9s bikes…both on and off road. I never felt any longing for more gearing then either. Was pretty happy with each. But when owning the next evolution aka one more cog in back, once I hit 10s, I never longed for more in back and owning and riding both Campy and DA 9000 11s, I never felt 11s was an improvement.
    I will say further, look how Campy has executed their new 12s. They did it with the same real estate freehub in back. One more cog crammed in back resulting in less space between cogs and thinner cogs and thinner chain.

    This does four things:

    a. A smaller chain typically reduces durability due to higher force per unit area.
    b. Thinner cogs are weaker due to reduced strength which suffer the same lack of wear resistance
    c. Less space between cogs for same cassette width translates to greater sensitivity to cross chaining because of tendency of chain to rub on adjacent cogs based upon reduced space.
    d. Set up is more sensitive by design with smaller space between more cogs based upon cable pull. Error is compounded based upon the rear derailleur traveling the same overall distance with more stops along the way.

    In summary, you are going to pay more for this so called ‘innovation’for less durability and possibly lower performance and/or set up sensitivity. I don’t want it. I could have easily converted my 10s Campy bike to 11s for example by simply changing the RH shifter body with different no. detents and pull ratio, a different cassette and different chain. A low cost transition. Never felt the need. I don’t believe 11s is better than 10s. I don’t fight 11s much but to me, its completely unnecessary. I feel even more strongly about 12s because the tradeoffs are even more profound for each added cog in back without changing freehub width resulting in need to increase frame dropout spacing.

    My take. Will others follow? Inevitably. No stopping the mad march into oblivion. Same dynamic as with previous cog increases. In design parlence which has been a bitter lesson repeated too often...from outboard bearing BSA to one of many press fit variants of bottom bracket out there…there is no free lunch. Pick your poison carefully and drink responsibly.
    Totally agree with you on this one.

    Hope I don't ever come across a 12 speed Full Ti Cassette for $1,000...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    12 speed makes good sense .. for 1x builds. very very good sense. it's taking over mountain biking now. cyclocross and gravel too maybe

    as for road - I think most of us with hills and mtns nearby want a FD, so no need for 12sp cassettes
    Do you know if mountain bike freehubs and cassettes for mountain bike wider dropout spacing based upon disc brakes for 1 x 12 are wider than Campy's freehub which is the same for 10-11-12 based upon more narrow road spacing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Do you know if mountain bike freehubs and cassettes for mountain bike wider dropout spacing based upon disc brakes for 1 x 12 are wider than Campy's freehub which is the same for 10-11-12 based upon more narrow road spacing?
    dropout spacing is not changed specifically for 12sp. Most are 135mmQR or 142-thru-axle which is actually the same spacing. But Boost spacing (148mm) has been on line for a few years now - this makes the wheel stronger and better tire-chain clearance, allowing plus size tires. A bike with Boost also has wider BB. road racing scene seeks less Q factor, not more, so Boost won't be coming to the road
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    dropout spacing is not changed specifically for 12sp. Most are 135mm. But Boost spacing (148mm) has been on line for a few years now - this makes the wheel stronger and better tire-chain clearance, allowing plus size tires. A bike with Boost also has wider BB. road racing scene seeks less Q factor, not more, so Boost won't be coming to the road
    Not what I asked. If you know, does the 12s cassette you speak of...the one designed for mountain biking, does it have a wider freehub than any production 10-11s freehub? Does the 12s mountain bike chain change as well?

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    To answer my own question because I haven't installed 12s on a mountain bike, the 12s cassette will fit a standard Shimano XD freehub. Translation to my question is concern about cross chaining when not changing the dish of the rear wheel which results in cogs being closer together and in spite of narrower chain, tighter cog spacing due to more cogs on the same freehub length can translate to more cog rubbing when cross chaining and of course with a 1 x set up, cross chaining will be the order of the day when climbing or descending. But it is on the market and the engineers that designed it signed off on it and some like it but many as with the road bike community still prefer a 2 x set up. Its been conjectured that a 2 x 10 offers more cadence tunability than a 1 x 12 based upon cog spacing if choosing the proper front ring to ride on a 2 x. I have owned 1 x 10 off road and certainly true of 2 x 10 on road by comparison...latter easier to find the right cadence based upon which front ring chosen for a given gear inch target.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Not what I asked. If you know, does the 12s cassette you speak of...the one designed for mountain biking, does it have a wider freehub than any production 10-11s freehub? Does the 12s mountain bike chain change as well?
    the Eagle 12sp cassette is same width as the 11sp cassettes.
    SRAM now make eagle 12 in their more entry-level GX groupsets too (OK that is not the bottom-level group)

    -

    like I said above, I think most roadies still want 2x system. I sure do.

    However if I still lived back in Ontario where the hills are short and roads mostly flat, and the racing scene is mostly crits, I would be all over the 1x system idea for sure! I mean I remember a lot of the guys in the 70s and 80s running straight-block 5sp clusters which were more than adequate for racing in those parts. And never get out of the 52T chainring the whole race (I doubt I ever got out of the 52/53 in a race IIRC). I myself almost never had more than a 21t low gear on the back in 20 years riding there, with 42 front. a 1x12 sp straight block cassette would be excellent for that kind of racing, and maybe a 10-28 for training and touring. Even with existing Eagle, you get a 10t cog which might be handy for crits and TT, but it is not avail in roadie gearing yet
    Last edited by BCSaltchucker; 04-12-2018 at 11:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    To answer my own question because I haven't installed 12s on a mountain bike, the 12s cassette will fit a standard Shimano XD freehub.
    the 12sp cassettes will only fit SRAM XD freehub

    Shimano does not offer an XD freehub. that is SRAM specific. and must have XD to accept 12sp Eagle cassettes
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    the 12sp cassettes will only fit SRAM XD freehub

    Shimano does not offer an XD freehub. that is SRAM specific. and must have XD to accept 12sp Eagle cassettes
    Thanks BC. You are correct...I mis-wrote Shimano XD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    I got away from those stupid chain pins years ago. Amazing that Shimano took so long go to links which are easier to install and impossible to screw up. There's a $35 Lezene (sp?) tool that works for Campy chains. My bike shop has the $200 one -- looks cool, but come on, a $200 chain tool?

    I rode Dura Ace 7700 for years. It didn't get "improved" every year. It was a good, solid group that stayed the same for what these days is an eternity. Back then, this years Chorus was last year's Record every year. I liked how Shimano didn't constantly "improve" the group.

    I recall the late Steve Tilford saying, 'I think the sweet spot was 8-speed'. At some point, more isn't better.
    When "Ultra 7 speed" came out around '85, I tried it for a few years, missed shifts so often with the friction shifters, so went back to 6 speed freewheels.

    When 8 speed STI shifters came out, I said, "Nope." Friction is much easier to maintain; the down tube paddle shifters have lasted the life of two bikes, so far 30 years and around 70,000 miles on the odometers. I even have a spare set bought years ago for $20. Barring an accident, I'll never have to use them.

    53/42 or 52-43 up front and 13-22 in back on the "race bike," 13-28 on the commuter, which has worked great even on occasional mountain riding, such as the stint in the Hollywood Hills and Mt. Wilson out of LA on 44-22 lowest gear. If I lived in the mountains, sure, at age 74, I'd get a 32t. in back and 39 in front, but as long as I live in the DC area, I'll never need it.

    Years ago rode a friend's bike for a week with a 10 speed cluster and 52-39. I found as some here did, that all of a sudden I had to shift through two gears to hit the right cadence, and also double shift the front and rear together at the most common speeds, 12-18 mph. The subtle difference between freewheel gears is surely useful at race intensities when right up at anaerobic threshold, but my legs have never had problems picking up cadence on 2 to 4 tooth jumps in back. On a climb, I just slow down or speed up to stay on top of the gear, which teaches the legs to handle varying cadences, very useful when climbing and sprinting on one end, and slogging up long hills in 42-22 or 28 on the other end.

    Still use 6 speed freewheels, 1/4" chains, and the same chain breaker tool since 6 speed days. Wider chains don't need master links. Any link can easily be disassembled and put back together. I've never broken the chain while riding, not even the time I caught a coat hanger in the chain and bent the derailleur hanger 45 degrees.

    Used to repair chains all the time while working the local bike shop that broke at the master link, due to riders not installing it correctly. But man, the tolerances are so small on 10-11-12 speed chains, can't imagine working individual links with a chain tool to get them right. 1/4" chains are stronger, durable, can be repaired without master links, and are cheaper to replace. The trade offs going to narrower tolerances aren't worth it for a couple of extra gears I'll never use.

    I also find 14 tooth jumps in front are way too much for the legs to handle. I loved the lightning quick shifting from 52 to 44. Anything more than a 10 t. jump, 52-42, for me would be undesirable. I want the gears to overlap at the speeds I typically run, 12-18 mph. Can't imagine 12 speed chains holding up all that well over a 1 x12 spread. That's nuts. You don't want the chain, especially the narrow 11 or 12 speed chains, to flex side to side. It will wear out the drive train quickly compared to the old 1/4" 5-8 speed chains with 2 cogs in front.

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    Campy dropped the ball bad IMO. They needed a wireless solution, a new chain using a link (Dura Ace chains now ship with link), and a pedal to challenge Shimano. I say Shimano as they are the only real pedal as Look pedals suck,and Speedplay is a horrible company with a “Rube Goldberg” pedal design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    Campy dropped the ball bad IMO. They needed a wireless solution, a new chain using a link (Dura Ace chains now ship with link), and a pedal to challenge Shimano. I say Shimano as they are the only real pedal as Look pedals suck,and Speedplay is a horrible company with a “Rube Goldberg” pedal design.
    I prefer Speedplays to all pedals for a number of reasons. I don't believe Campy has dropped the ball in the least. Judging by comments here where most don't believe 12s is a benefit although many are in favor of large cassettes for breadth of gearing with existing 11s if doing a lot of climibing, the latest iteration of 11s Chorus or Record is pretty faultless. Heck, the previous generation of Campy 11s which I own is hard to fault before they redesigned their derailleurs and 12s retains much of this DNA. I would say there is nothing good about a thinner chain, thinner cog teeth and reduced spacing between cogs after a given point. We will see just how good 12s chain wear and any cross chain tradeoffs as they go on sale. Who needs a wireless solution...many still prefer Campy EPS and Shimano Di2 to Sram Etap, wires and all. And if you like, one can run a DA chain on a Campy driveline with masterlink. I never run Campy chains and a little secret is they work perfectly with an inexpensive KMC missing link which Campy doesn't support. Years back I bought a Campy equipped Bianchi from the factory that came with a KMC chain and Missing link...Bianchi didn't even spec the bike with a Campy chain.

    And Fredrico's perspective is colored by riding bikes in the 1800's.
    Last edited by 11spd; 04-13-2018 at 01:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    Campy dropped the ball bad IMO. They needed a wireless solution, a new chain using a link (Dura Ace chains now ship with link), and a pedal to challenge Shimano. I say Shimano as they are the only real pedal as Look pedals suck,and Speedplay is a horrible company with a “Rube Goldberg” pedal design.
    Look has pulled off an amazing con job on unwitting consumers by selling huge numbers of pedals over the last 30 years that "suck"

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    The best thing that could happen here is for Shimano and SRAM to do... absolutely nothing. I see this as a dumb move on Campy's part. I don't think consumers are screaming out for more gears and I doubt Shimano users are going switch because of this.
    This could have been written ten years ago when Campy introduced 11 speed...

  22. #22
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    1x12 could be pretty sweet. 50t chainring with 11-42 cassette is the same range as 50/34 with 11-28 cassette. Could also be done with 11 speed.....

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    Look has pulled off an amazing con job on unwitting consumers by selling huge numbers of pedals over the last 30 years that "suck"
    They really have. Have you seen the many pics of Lizard Skins or other tape put over their top surfaces to prevent rocking and squeaking? Go to Cyclingnews and see almost every team sponsored by them have tape.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    This could have been written ten years ago when Campy introduced 11 speed...
    Maybe. Last time Shimano took up the challenge. Perhaps this time they will realize that there is no business reason to do so

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    Campy dropped the ball bad IMO. They needed a wireless solution, a new chain using a link (Dura Ace chains now ship with link), and a pedal to challenge Shimano. I say Shimano as they are the only real pedal as Look pedals suck,and Speedplay is a horrible company with a “Rube Goldberg” pedal design.
    I too love the rube goldberg speedplays.. perfect for my bad knees. I have two pairs.

    As to 12spd.. Agree campy is a day late and a dollar short with this idea. I am a satisfied campy 11 user who will likely never change

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