Can we talk about cleat position as it relates to saddle position?
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  1. #1
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    Can we talk about cleat position as it relates to saddle position?

    Fitter put me somewhere awful. He put me way too far back and it gave me behind the knee pain but ALSO too low. Confusing for a while as going any higher meant the posterior pain worse and any lower and the anterior pain got worse. Finally figured that out and moved the seat forward 15mm and that let me raise it a whopping 30mm without posterior pain. This eliminated my frontal pain but there's still something left and it feels different. I can go higher I guess but it's already hard to get on the bike it's so high.

    So at this point I figured it might be cleats and moved them back ~6mm and straightened them (previously set to toe out a few degrees). The frontal pain went away but now I feel like I have 10 o'clock pain (looking down @ left knee). I might just be adapting to a new position but I may have to toe them out again.

    Cliffs: I was just hoping to find out which direction you generally have to move your saddle if you move your cleats, if any.

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    Why you want to suffer like that ? Plenty of fitters out there,find a new one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devastazione View Post
    Why you want to suffer like that ? Plenty of fitters out there,find a new one.
    I've been to 2. The most recent one had multiple doctorates in sports medicine, kinesiology, etc and does the local university race teams fits and neither helped. Need to figure it out on my own especially with COVID now.

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    Rip that supposed expert's sheepskins off his office wall, cut 'em up, and use the pieces to fine tune your saddle height.
    Mapie is a conventional looking former Hollywood bon viveur, now leading a quiet life in a house made of wood by an isolated beach. He has cultivated a taste for culture, and is a celebrated raconteur amongst his local associates, who are artists, actors, and other leftfield/eccentric types. I imagine he has a telescope, and an unusual sculpture outside his front door. He is also a beach comber. The Rydster.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    Fitter put me somewhere awful. He put me way too far back and it gave me behind the knee pain but ALSO too low. Confusing for a while as going any higher meant the posterior pain worse and any lower and the anterior pain got worse. Finally figured that out and moved the seat forward 15mm and that let me raise it a whopping 30mm without posterior pain. This eliminated my frontal pain but there's still something left and it feels different. I can go higher I guess but it's already hard to get on the bike it's so high.

    So at this point I figured it might be cleats and moved them back ~6mm and straightened them (previously set to toe out a few degrees). The frontal pain went away but now I feel like I have 10 o'clock pain (looking down @ left knee). I might just be adapting to a new position but I may have to toe them out again.

    Cliffs: I was just hoping to find out which direction you generally have to move your saddle if you move your cleats, if any.
    Why is this having an impact on you getting on the bike? The pedals are the height from the ground...you're not swinging your leg over the saddle/sitting on it when you get on the bike are you?
    #promechaniclife

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    Fitter put me somewhere awful. He put me way too far back and it gave me behind the knee pain but ALSO too low. Confusing for a while as going any higher meant the posterior pain worse and any lower and the anterior pain got worse. Finally figured that out and moved the seat forward 15mm and that let me raise it a whopping 30mm without posterior pain. This eliminated my frontal pain but there's still something left and it feels different. I can go higher I guess but it's already hard to get on the bike it's so high.

    So at this point I figured it might be cleats and moved them back ~6mm and straightened them (previously set to toe out a few degrees). The frontal pain went away but now I feel like I have 10 o'clock pain (looking down @ left knee). I might just be adapting to a new position but I may have to toe them out again.

    Cliffs: I was just hoping to find out which direction you generally have to move your saddle if you move your cleats, if any.

    Moving anything bike related in the increments you noted (see above in red) just seems wacked out, are you sure about those measurements?
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROAD&DIRT View Post
    Moving anything bike related in the increments you noted (see above in red) just seems wacked out, are you sure about those measurements?
    As far as the saddle position yes I'm sure of those measurements. My seat post has very clear markings for extension and adjustable setback and I've kept a journal as I've made changes.

    Those changes were made in 2mm increments over a 16 month period. I made the cleat change all at once. It feels like I'm being forced toed in, which I'd expect as I used to have the cleats pointed such that the shoes toe out a few degrees. I'll give that a few rides to see if I adapt and change the angle back if needed. I was just curious what saddle height/fore/aft changes I might expect to make given my cleat placement change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    I've been to 2. The most recent one had multiple doctorates in sports medicine, kinesiology, etc and does the local university race teams fits and neither helped. Need to figure it out on my own especially with COVID now.
    Quote Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    As far as the saddle position yes I'm sure of those measurements. My seat post has very clear markings for extension and adjustable setback and I've kept a journal as I've made changes.

    ... I was just curious what saddle height/fore/aft changes I might expect to make given my cleat placement change.
    Here's something to consider when looking to dial in your bike fit. Please answer:
    1. How fit are you? Age/Weight? Flexibility, Strength
    2. How much do you ride? Miles Week/ Month/ Year?
    3. What Bike/Frame Size ?

    Where and when, and what type Bike Fits performed.
    How much money $ did you spend on these Bike Fit's?

    Cleat Position:
    What Type Cleats.
    Last edited by rudge66; 08-08-2020 at 03:22 PM.

  9. #9
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    I don't know. I jus set my cleat so the ball of my foot is over the spindle, saddle height so that my leg is maybe 80% straight with the pedal at 6 o'clock, saddle set back when the pedal is at 3 or 9, depends which pedal we're talking about, the little bump below my knee is basically over the pedal spindle. I've never strayed much from this in close to 50 years and it's always worked well.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    Those changes were made in 2mm increments over a 16 month period. I made the cleat change all at once. It feels like I'm being forced toed in, which I'd expect as I used to have the cleats pointed such that the shoes toe out a few degrees. I'll give that a few rides to see if I adapt and change the angle back if needed. I was just curious what saddle height/fore/aft changes I might expect to make given my cleat placement change.
    Moving your cleat position pointed outward or inward depends on your gait and how you naturally stand. Are you pigeon toed or duck footed when you walk? This adjustment has nothing to do with your saddle position. This is especially important if your pedals have minimal to no float. You don't want to "force" you knees one way or the other or you will have problems.
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  11. #11
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    How much do you weigh, what BIKE do you ride ...

    1. Do you have your... er Saddle Set Equal Height With Your Bars?
    2. Did you get A Really Good Fit ...
    3. Did you Raise Your Stem Angel?
    4. Did you put The Maximum Spacers Under Your Stem?

    5. Buy A Bigger Biker?


    Lombard seems to have the advice best on this forum ... so better go with the experts.
    Last edited by rudge66; 08-08-2020 at 11:40 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by rudge66 View Post
    How much do you weigh, what BIKE do you ride ...

    1. Do you have your... er Saddle Set Equal Height With Your Bars?
    2. Did you get A Really Good Fit ...
    3. Did you Raise Your Stem Angel?
    4. Did you put The Maximum Spacers Under Your Stem?

    5. Buy A Bigger Biker?


    Lombard seems to have the advice best on this forum ... so better go with the experts.
    Your trolling is noted. Give it up.

    Why would I buy a biker? I would buy a bike instead. What is a stem angel? Do you mean a guardian angel for when I ride in dangerous traffic?
    "COMPLACENCY IS LETHAL - VOTE in November." - System Shock.

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rudge66 View Post
    Here's something to consider when looking to dial in your bike fit. Please answer:
    1. How fit are you? Age/Weight? Flexibility, Strength
    2. How much do you ride? Miles Week/ Month/ Year?
    3. What Bike/Frame Size ?


    Where and when, and what type Bike Fits performed.
    How much money $ did you spend on these Bike Fit's?


    Cleat Position:
    What Type Cleats.
    Reasonably fit. I ride 3-4 times a week and weights another 2-3 days, no issue riding 3-5 hours at a time (and did 8-10 hour rides before the knee pain started 2 years ago). 35, I stretch after every ride and I'm reasonably flexible, came from weight training so strength is more than sufficient. Specialized Roubaix 64cm. One fit was at the shop I bought the bike from their "fit guy". I have a power meter and power went up instantly 5% on his fit but that's when the pain started.

    Went through my insurance for a LEGIT ($300+) fit from the guy who does the local university's racing team's fits. Two people with doctorates in sports medicine/kinesiology/etc performed it. They put the saddle way too far back and low though. Going forward and up, gradually (2mm every few weeks) helped a lot. SPD cleats, Sidi shoes. Cleats and shoes <1 year old.




    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Moving your cleat position pointed outward or inward depends on your gait and how you naturally stand. Are you pigeon toed or duck footed when you walk? This adjustment has nothing to do with your saddle position. This is especially important if your pedals have minimal to no float. You don't want to "force" you knees one way or the other or you will have problems.

    I'm barely duck footed. Like my left foot points where the hour hand would be at 11:30.






    Quote Originally Posted by rudge66 View Post
    How much do you weigh, what BIKE do you ride ...
    Do you have your... er Saddle Set Equal Height With Your Bars?
    Did you get A Really Good Fit ...
    Did you Raise Your Stem Angel?
    Did you put The Maximum Spacers Under Your Stem?
    5. Buy A Bigger Biker?




    Lombard seems to have the advice best on this forum ... so better go with the experts.
    6'6" 230lbs. Lean enough to see my top 2 abs first thing in the morning when I'm a little dehydrated. I have a bigger upper body than most cyclists but I'm not fat. If I lost 10lbs I'd be shredded but I just like snacking too much


    Bars are 3-4" below my saddle but at 6'6" even a 680mm stack height bike this will happen. I have longer arms to make that reach so I'm not in a very aggressive position at all. Stem is at the top position. I have the biggest bike I'm aware of in its category (off the shelf carbon road bike).
    Last edited by thisisthebeave; 08-10-2020 at 05:49 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Why is this having an impact on you getting on the bike? The pedals are the height from the ground...you're not swinging your leg over the saddle/sitting on it when you get on the bike are you?
    I was wondering the same thing.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    SPD cleats, Sidi shoes.

    I'm barely duck footed. Like my left foot points where the hour hand would be at 11:30.
    SPD as in 2-hole mountain pedals? Those have pretty good float, but if you are indeed a half hour duck footed, you may want to consider adjusting your cleat with the front pointing slightly inward. I am somewhat pigeon toed and adjust mine the opposite.
    "COMPLACENCY IS LETHAL - VOTE in November." - System Shock.

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    I assume both Bike Fitters did their best to try and address your issues.

    But...If you'r not in decent condition , not able to put time into developing strength,
    especially your core... OOPs .. just read your reply.
    Then your best option at this point might just be the Prairie Dog Comfort Fit.

    I'm not the best member here to advise on Prairie Dog , as it's not my fit.

    You are Big ..
    I suggest trying SPD-L shoes/cleat.
    I though your core might be the issue.
    Keep riding through it.
    Pain off the bike is a no no. But 8-10 hr rides can easily cause discomfort.
    Good luck.
    Last edited by rudge66; 08-10-2020 at 03:47 PM.

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    On SPD's you can get 2 cleats, one no float the other about 5%, I run those. If your running no float you need to twist your cleats so your feet are still pointed out. But the 5% works wonderful and your heal will clear the crank arms as they go by.

    As to your question, do you try and ride with your toes down, flat or up. If flat (normal) moving the cleats rearward should reduce the effective length of your leg, ergo need to drop the seat, but not much. Since your moving everything, I'd just keep going till you feel the speed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rudge66 View Post
    I assume both Bike Fitters did their best to try and address your issues.

    But...If you'r not in decent condition , not able to put time into developing strength,
    especially your core... OOPs .. just read your reply.
    Then your best option at this point might just be the Prairie Dog Comfort Fit.

    I'm not the best member here to advise on Prairie Dog , as it's not my fit.

    You are Big ..
    I suggest trying SPD-L shoes/cleat.
    I though your core might be the issue.
    Keep riding through it.
    Pain off the bike is a no no. But 8-10 hr rides can easily cause discomfort.
    Good luck.
    Just stop with this "prairie dog" shyte. You have no clue.
    "COMPLACENCY IS LETHAL - VOTE in November." - System Shock.

    "With
    bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."
    -- DCGriz, RBR.





  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    On SPD's you can get 2 cleats, one no float the other about 5%, I run those. If your running no float you need to twist your cleats so your feet are still pointed out. But the 5% works wonderful and your heal will clear the crank arms as they go by.

    As to your question, do you try and ride with your toes down, flat or up. If flat (normal) moving the cleats rearward should reduce the effective length of your leg, ergo need to drop the seat, but not much. Since your moving everything, I'd just keep going till you feel the speed.
    Yea I quickly realized the cleats really do need to be angled. I got intense pain at the 10 oclock position on my left and 2 oclock position on my right. I put them back ton normal two days ago, rode, and had some residual pain. Rode again today and some residual pain but less. I think I'm getting close to dialed.

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  21. #21
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    I found an answer from Zinn

    https://www.velonews.com/gear/techni...tion-and-more/


    Dear Bart,
    Yes, you will need to lower the saddle about half the amount you move the cleats. You should, however, not need to change the fore-aft adjustment.
    -Lennard

  22. #22
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    Well if you move the seat up or down, you are moving the seat for-aft, cause the seat tube is at an angle.
    I think he means you don't relocate the seat, cause it is such a small fraction of the vertical distance.
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  23. #23
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    Have you thought about trying speedplay pedals? They cured my knee issues instantly with their free float. No more faffing about cleat angle, your foot will find its natural angle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToiletSiphon View Post
    Have you thought about trying speedplay pedals? They cured my knee issues instantly with their free float. No more faffing about cleat angle, your foot will find its natural angle.
    Which Speedplay pedals do you have?
    "COMPLACENCY IS LETHAL - VOTE in November." - System Shock.

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    bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Which Speedplay pedals do you have?
    X-Series. Unfortunately they are now discontinued, but the Zero should do the trick.


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