Cannondale Recalls 11000 bikes; Disc Brake Fork Failure
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  1. #1
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    Cannondale Recalls 11000 bikes; Disc Brake Fork Failure

    Here's the link...

    https://www.outsideonline.com/240032...clocross-bikes


    From the article,


    "These kinds of carbon-fiber bike failures are not all that uncommon, thanks largely to manufacturing inconsistencies and a lack of education surrounding the materialís weaknesses. (Even a minor bump can cause a fissure in thin layers of carbon-fiber, which can widen over time until the material finally breaks, seemingly out of nowhere.)"

    If that's true, basically every bike made nowadays is a ticking time bomb. The only safe bike is the one you never ride.

    Cannondale doesn't understand the problem since the forks have passed every safety test. And they are simply replacing the old forks with new carbon forks which may potentially have the same problem.

    No doubt the disc brakes put enormous unilateral stress on the fork, which is why it exclusively a disc brake problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-theory View Post
    Here's the link...

    https://www.outsideonline.com/240032...clocross-bikes


    From the article,


    "These kinds of carbon-fiber bike failures are not all that uncommon, thanks largely to manufacturing inconsistencies and a lack of education surrounding the materialís weaknesses. (Even a minor bump can cause a fissure in thin layers of carbon-fiber, which can widen over time until the material finally breaks, seemingly out of nowhere.)"

    If that's true, basically every bike made nowadays is a ticking time bomb. The only safe bike is the one you never ride.

    Cannondale doesn't understand the problem since the forks have passed every safety test. And they are simply replacing the old forks with new carbon forks which may potentially have the same problem.

    No doubt the disc brakes put enormous unilateral stress on the fork, which is why it exclusively a disc brake problem.
    Catch being...we don't know that is why the forks failed. Even the CPSC recall doesn't cite where/why the forks failed. These being CX race bikes-they see abuse under "normal" use. Those forks should be engineered to ASTM Condition 2, which consumer-side, simplifies all that to '15cm/6-inch drops or less'. Approx 10,000 units sold worldwide and 5 failures in the US over 7 years with 3 model years.

    https://www.astm.org/Standards/F2868.htm

    https://salsacycles.com/files/tech/7...rt_F_Bikes.pdf

    I bring it up...because people always abuse the hell out of their Lefty forks on their Lefty CX/Gravel bikes and using it like an MTB fork (exceeding 6")...then act surprised and shocked the damn thing failed.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Catch being...we don't know that is why the forks failed. Even the CPSC recall doesn't cite where/why the forks failed. These being CX race bikes-they see abuse under "normal" use. Those forks should be engineered to ASTM Condition 2, which consumer-side, simplifies all that to '15cm/6-inch drops or less'. Approx 10,000 units sold worldwide and 5 failures in the US over 7 years with 3 model years.

    https://www.astm.org/Standards/F2868.htm

    https://salsacycles.com/files/tech/7...rt_F_Bikes.pdf

    I bring it up...because people always abuse the hell out of their Lefty forks on their Lefty CX/Gravel bikes and using it like an MTB fork (exceeding 6")...then act surprised and shocked the damn thing failed.
    Right. These being cyclocross race bikes, they may well have been involved in small crashes deemed insignificant by the owners, and then soon forgotten.

    And yes, lots of people do treat their gravel and cross bikes like mountain bikes, which is not their intended use.

    Hopefully providing owners with new forks, and replacing those that have hidden damages, Cannondale may prevent the problem from escalating any further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-theory View Post
    Right. These being cyclocross race bikes, they may well have been involved in small crashes deemed insignificant by the owners, and then soon forgotten.

    And yes, lots of people do treat their gravel and cross bikes like mountain bikes, which is not their intended use.

    Hopefully providing owners with new forks, and replacing those that have hidden damages, Cannondale may prevent the problem from escalating any further.
    Depends how the bikes are marketed.

    Itís like 4wd companies showing the vehicles driving aggressively off-road then try to deny warranty claims. If you market a cross bike as tough it better be


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    Quote Originally Posted by M-theory View Post
    Right. These being cyclocross race bikes, they may well have been involved in small crashes deemed insignificant by the owners, and then soon forgotten.

    And yes, lots of people do treat their gravel and cross bikes like mountain bikes, which is not their intended use.

    Hopefully providing owners with new forks, and replacing those that have hidden damages, Cannondale may prevent the problem from escalating any further.
    and how do you realistically expect consumers to uniformally define or differentiate between what is proper usage and what is excessive usage? My personally observation is that most folks with cx bikes do not use them like an mtb bike (not around here).

    (PS: I've seen a case where Specialized has denied warranty claim from a guy who rode his mtb off a curb and cracked it's headtube. Specialized's reason was that that was not intended use, and this was a Stumpjumper.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    and how do you realistically expect consumers to uniformally define or differentiate between what is proper usage and what is excessive usage? My personally observation is that most folks with cx bikes do not use them like an mtb bike (not around here).

    (PS: I've seen a case where Specialized has denied warranty claim from a guy who rode his mtb off a curb and cracked it's headtube. Specialized's reason was that that was not intended use, and this was a Stumpjumper.)
    Is this the new normal? Geraint Thomas and another rider cracked their frames in the Tour. They break at the down tube and top tube, a hell of a place to put the weakest link in the system, almost as bad as a cracking fork. The torsional force of a disc brake would concentrate along the middle of the fork. Again, the weakest structural spot on the fork.

    Steel's superior modulus of elasticity saves the day, mile after mile.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=tour...5vHRgzEFXKwaM:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Is this the new normal? Geraint Thomas and another rider cracked their frames in the Tour. They break at the down tube and top tube, a hell of a place to put the weakest link in the system, almost as bad as a cracking fork. The torsional force of a disc brake would concentrate along the middle of the fork. Again, the weakest structural spot on the fork.

    Steel's superior modulus of elasticity saves the day, mile after mile.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=tour...5vHRgzEFXKwaM:
    Hoss, those bikes broke because they were literally run over with a team car.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-theory View Post
    Here's the link...

    https://www.outsideonline.com/240032...clocross-bikes


    From the article,


    "These kinds of carbon-fiber bike failures are not all that uncommon, thanks largely to manufacturing inconsistencies and a lack of education surrounding the materialís weaknesses. (Even a minor bump can cause a fissure in thin layers of carbon-fiber, which can widen over time until the material finally breaks, seemingly out of nowhere.)"

    If that's true, basically every bike made nowadays is a ticking time bomb. The only safe bike is the one you never ride.

    Cannondale doesn't understand the problem since the forks have passed every safety test. And they are simply replacing the old forks with new carbon forks which may potentially have the same problem.

    No doubt the disc brakes put enormous unilateral stress on the fork, which is why it exclusively a disc brake problem.
    I wonder if 11 failures over 11,000 bikes is an indication of a design flaw or just statistically normal. We don't know the conditions under which there folks broke but it could have been abuse. Even though I am a steel guy, this doesn't strike me as a reason to throw out your soulless plastic bike. Also, if Cannondale has no idea what caused it why would a replacement fork fix the problem if there were one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-theory View Post
    Right. These being cyclocross race bikes, they may well have been involved in small crashes deemed insignificant by the owners, and then soon forgotten.

    And yes, lots of people do treat their gravel and cross bikes like mountain bikes, which is not their intended use.

    Hopefully providing owners with new forks, and replacing those that have hidden damages, Cannondale may prevent the problem from escalating any further.
    You don't have to look far to find a 250 pound rider on a 800 gram frame and 24/20 spoked light rims wheelset. Unintended use is hardly unique to cross and gravel bikes.

    And while I'm not real sure what 'like a mountain bike" would be exactly many cross and gravel bikes are actually designed for being used "like a mountain bike" to the extent it's possible without shocks, massive tires and mtn bike gearing.
    I definitely see Mtn bikes places I take my cross bike. But those are very mild places for real Mtn bikes. If someone were to take their gravel bike up a ski lift to bomb down that crosses the line between unintended use and shear stupidity. Nothing bike makers can do to address stupidity.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Hoss, those bikes broke because they were literally run over with a team car.
    The aerial footage showed these bikes crashing all by themselves, not being hit by a team car. So not sure where you're getting this, pardner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Hoss, those bikes broke because they were literally run over with a team car.
    there is debate whether Moscon's bike broke because Geraint Thomas landed on it or whether a car ran over it. I haven't seen any conclusive video footage showing any car ran over the bike. But, I've seen a picture of Moscon's bike showing the 2 major points of breakage, and there was nothing else damaged that the eyes could see in the photo. So this leads me to believe Thomas just landed on the bike and broke it, because if a car were to run over a bike and break it at 2 points (the toptube and downtube), then I'd expect the car to also run over the bike's wheels, derailleur, and basically smash that bike down to carbon fiber threads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    I wonder if 11 failures over 11,000 bikes is an indication of a design flaw or just statistically normal. We don't know the conditions under which there folks broke but it could have been abuse. Even though I am a steel guy, this doesn't strike me as a reason to throw out your soulless plastic bike. Also, if Cannondale has no idea what caused it why would a replacement fork fix the problem if there were one?
    That's 11 catastrophic failures out of 11000 bikes, which really shouldn't be an acceptable number. Spinal injuries, broken faces, and death. This isn't like when your Timex watch stops ticking, due to abuse. The forks should really be bomb-proof, not subject to failing... even with abuse. If the professionals want to use risky equipment, that is their choice. But the general public should not be allowed to purchase materials that cannot easily be inspected for damage. (Even worse is that consumers have almost no choice, since virtually every adult-oriented bike has a CF fork, even steel and aluminum framed bikes)

    There are 253 million cars and trucks on the road in the U.S. If 1 in a 1000 were subject to a catastrophic failure every three years, the number of deaths would be staggering. It would be 84,000 car and truck catastrophic failures every year. Imagine the scenario... gas tanks exploding, front axles just breaking in half as cars cruise down the highway, loss of steering due to faulty steering columns, wheels falling off due to faulty lug nuts, windshields exploding into a driver's face, etc...etc... And , that is in addition to regular accidents.

    But somehow, when the equivalent happens with a bike, it's up to the manufacturer to have a voluntary recall.

    Our government consumer safety department has failed the bike riding public. Carbon Fiber is an unsafe material because it cannot take any lateral abuse, without deadly consequences to follow shortly thereafter, when you least expect it. It cannot adequately be inspected for strength by visual means. and when it fails, it fails completely.

    If one merely over-tightens the stem nuts on a full carbon fiber fork's steering column, the consequences could be unimaginably horrific.

    There are alternatives to pure CF that are being researched.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmu.../#1b4230c910d6


    The government really needs to push for the implementation of safer hybrid materials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    I wonder if 11 failures over 11,000 bikes is an indication of a design flaw or just statistically normal. We don't know the conditions under which there folks broke but it could have been abuse. Even though I am a steel guy, this doesn't strike me as a reason to throw out your soulless plastic bike. Also, if Cannondale has no idea what caused it why would a replacement fork fix the problem if there were one?
    Don't buy Cdale saying they don't know the cause. Cdale is full of bs. You can bet they had already inspected a lot of failed forks (probably a lot more than the 11 that actually caused injuries/deaths), discussed with their legal department, and came to the conclusion that it'd wiser to do a voluntary recall that would cost some money now than wait for some death class action that would cost a lot more. No manufacture does a voluntary recall out of goodwill without weighing the all evidence in hands (which only they know it).

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    I don't believe that the bicycle industry does any nondestructive testing on carbon forks and frames to detect flaws (such as ultrasonic testing) because of the extra cost. Perhaps they should, especially on forks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-theory View Post
    That's 11 catastrophic failures out of 11000 bikes, which really shouldn't be an acceptable number. Spinal injuries, broken faces, and death. This isn't like when your Timex watch stops ticking, due to abuse. The forks should really be bomb-proof, not subject to failing... even with abuse. If the professionals want to use risky equipment, that is their choice. But the general public should not be allowed to purchase materials that cannot easily be inspected for damage. (Even worse is that consumers have almost no choice, since virtually every adult-oriented bike has a CF fork, even steel and aluminum framed bikes)

    There are 253 million cars and trucks on the road in the U.S. If 1 in a 1000 were subject to a catastrophic failure every three years, the number of deaths would be staggering. It would be 84,000 car and truck catastrophic failures every year. Imagine the scenario... gas tanks exploding, front axles just breaking in half as cars cruise down the highway, loss of steering due to faulty steering columns, wheels falling off due to faulty lug nuts, windshields exploding into a driver's face, etc...etc... And , that is in addition to regular accidents.

    But somehow, when the equivalent happens with a bike, it's up to the manufacturer to have a voluntary recall.

    Our government consumer safety department has failed the bike riding public. Carbon Fiber is an unsafe material because it cannot take any lateral abuse, without deadly consequences to follow shortly thereafter, when you least expect it. It cannot adequately be inspected for strength by visual means. and when it fails, it fails completely.

    If one merely over-tightens the stem nuts on a full carbon fiber fork's steering column, the consequences could be unimaginably horrific.

    There are alternatives to pure CF that are being researched.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmu.../#1b4230c910d6


    The government really needs to push for the implementation of safer hybrid materials.
    Dude, seriously? Do you fly? You know those wings arenít steel right? BMW has a massive CF implementation in progress. There are bazoodles of CF bikes on the road, all working perfectly. You need to pick on something? Pick on disk brakes.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    Don't buy Cdale saying they don't know the cause. Cdale is full of bs. You can bet they had already inspected a lot of failed forks (probably a lot more than the 11 that actually caused injuries/deaths), discussed with their legal department, and came to the conclusion that it'd wiser to do a voluntary recall that would cost some money now than wait for some death class action that would cost a lot more. No manufacture does a voluntary recall out of goodwill without weighing the all evidence in hands (which only they know it).
    Even if they don't know the cause, that's still worrying - do they really understand what they are doing?

    Either way, the long response to the multiple incidents is enough to steer me away from Cdale for a good while.

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    just read this today. Ford recalls 108k cars due to a seatbelt issue causing 1 injury

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-...c=bell-brknews

    Compare this to 11k bikes causing 11 injuries/deaths? ugh, I think the bicycle industry sets a low standard for safety.

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    As the South African cyclists would say, Ek steem 100% saam.
    Quote Originally Posted by M-theory View Post
    That's 11 catastrophic failures out of 11000 bikes, which really shouldn't be an acceptable number. Spinal injuries, broken faces, and death. This isn't like when your Timex watch stops ticking, due to abuse. The forks should really be bomb-proof, not subject to failing... even with abuse. If the professionals want to use risky equipment, that is their choice. But the general public should not be allowed to purchase materials that cannot easily be inspected for damage. (Even worse is that consumers have almost no choice, since virtually every adult-oriented bike has a CF fork, even steel and aluminum framed bikes)

    There are 253 million cars and trucks on the road in the U.S. If 1 in a 1000 were subject to a catastrophic failure every three years, the number of deaths would be staggering. It would be 84,000 car and truck catastrophic failures every year. Imagine the scenario... gas tanks exploding, front axles just breaking in half as cars cruise down the highway, loss of steering due to faulty steering columns, wheels falling off due to faulty lug nuts, windshields exploding into a driver's face, etc...etc... And , that is in addition to regular accidents.

    But somehow, when the equivalent happens with a bike, it's up to the manufacturer to have a voluntary recall.

    Our government consumer safety department has failed the bike riding public. Carbon Fiber is an unsafe material because it cannot take any lateral abuse, without deadly consequences to follow shortly thereafter, when you least expect it. It cannot adequately be inspected for strength by visual means. and when it fails, it fails completely.

    If one merely over-tightens the stem nuts on a full carbon fiber fork's steering column, the consequences could be unimaginably horrific.

    There are alternatives to pure CF that are being researched.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmu.../#1b4230c910d6


    The government really needs to push for the implementation of safer hybrid materials.

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