Canyon wheelset change
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  1. #1
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    Canyon wheelset change

    I was internet lusting earlier and noticed new wheelsets on Canyon Ultimates. Last year the same bike had Mavic Cosmic Pro carbon wheels in a 45mm depth. This year, the same bike has DTSwiss P1800 (I think aluminum) at a 23mm depth for the same price.

    Is that just where the Canyon business model has gone or are those wheelsets more equivalent than I think?
    Last edited by lightning33; 02-09-2019 at 01:13 PM. Reason: added spec about aluminum

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    The Mavics retail for $1299, whereas the DT Swiss P1800s retail for $512. It should be noted the DT Swiss wheels are about 60g lighter, but that's not even noticeably. This clearly looks like an economically motivated decision, especially since the new tariffs have caused bike prices to rise 5%. Canyon probably wanted to keep MSRP the same and maybe sneak in some more margin.
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  3. #3
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    That's a big difference in wheelsets. That is unfortunate. Such is life.

    Thanks.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightning33 View Post
    That's a big difference in wheelsets. That is unfortunate. Such is life.

    Thanks.
    I'd take a DT wheelset over a Mavic any day of the week.

    Just because the Mavics are more expensive doesn't make them more desirable.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    I'd take a DT wheelset over a Mavic any day of the week.

    Just because the Mavics are more expensive doesn't make them more desirable.
    ^^^This.^^^
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  6. #6
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    Well, I guess I don't understand wheelsets. Honest question: how is a cheaper and shallower "better"? The Mavic is deeper/more aero (right?) and carbon (which is more desirable, right?). Just asking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lightning33 View Post
    Well, I guess I don't understand wheelsets. Honest question: how is a cheaper and shallower "better"? The Mavic is deeper/more aero (right?) and carbon (which is more desirable, right?). Just asking.
    The Cosmic Pros are not carbon, they're "carbon"....they're an alloy rim with a carbon fairing. They're 17mm internal which is quite narrow as rims go by any standard of the last 5+ years. Whether a deeper profile actually matters depends on what you're doing...also the conditions you're riding in, and the rim shape make make it less beneficial. Such as hard crosswinds.

    And that is before we start talking about the difficulty in sourcing any Mavic repair/replacement parts, and how hard they are to get. Also...lots of people make better hubs than Mavic.


    For $1200, which granted as OEM equipment you're not paying....there are lots and lots of better wheels. You can get DT Swiss 240S hubs or Onyx hubs or Whites laced to the best of alloy rims (or some carbon rims like ProWHeelbuilder's house rims, or Light Bicycle's rims from China) for that level of coin....and replacements are more easily sourced and probably will cost less.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightning33 View Post
    Well, I guess I don't understand wheelsets. Honest question: how is a cheaper and shallower "better"? The Mavic is deeper/more aero (right?) and carbon (which is more desirable, right?). Just asking.
    Not necessrily. Mavic quality control has deteriorated within the last decade. I have to wonder if multiple complaints have caused Canyon to change over to DT.

    Define "desireable". Many alloy rims now rival the weight of carbon rims. And you may not want aero rims if you ride a lot where there are cross winds or along fast moving roads with 18 wheelers blowing past you.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  9. #9
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    There are many different Ultimate models and many still come with Mavic cosmic.

    I think you are comparing apples one year to oranges the next.

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    Am i missing them? I see 1 x Ultimate model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    Can you produce data to support that? I have a new set of Mavic wheels and the quality is excellent. Bombproof and true.
    Can you define "bombproof"? How many miles do you have on these wheels?
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightning33 View Post
    Am i missing them? I see 1 x Ultimate model.
    It could be due to region. Also, their website navigation doesn't seem to be the easiest. That said, I also see multiple models, and the most expensive one comes with DT SWISS ARC 1400 DICUT wheelset, which seems to be a Carbon MSRP $2500 wheelset. Are you talking about SLX or SL version?

    https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ultimate/cf-slx/
    https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ultimate/cf-sl/

    I think here's a closer to apples-to-apples comparison:

    2019 SLX:
    https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ul...lx-disc-9-0-sl

    2018? SLX:
    https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ul...x-disc-8-0-di2
    Last edited by jetdog9; 02-19-2019 at 07:06 AM.

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    Well, I only see a CF SLX model with the Mavic Cosmics. It is the 8.0 Di2 model for about $4500. All the others seem to have moved to a form of DT Swiss (maybe?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    I have owned multiple sets across different genres of bikes including off road.

    Have a new set of Ksyrium's right now. I have what?...20K miles on Mavic wheels.
    How long have Ksyrium's been popular? Forever.

    https://www.bikeradar.com/gear/categ...-review-50420/

    You can of course throw them under the bus without proof, certainly your prerogative. People make unfounded allegations all the time.
    Depends on how you define "popular".

    Mavic wheels are so popular...AMER Sports is trying to find a buyer for the brand (as well as ENVE) as it has been losing them money for a while. Which is probably why Canyon is dropping them from models, because they have no idea if/when the brand will sell, nor who will buy it, nor what the theoretical buyer will do with it.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    That's quite a bit you post Marc. You an insider? You know the cost structure?

    Can you post your sources? Would love to learn more.

    Is this like the Campy thread? Is Campy dying along with Mavic? Are they related? Are the directors of each company fellow bingo players? Maybe belong to the same Polo club or kids go to the same private schools? It maybe a conspiracy.
    In order:

    September 2018: https://www.bicycleretailer.com/inte...g#.XFyF-M9KhTY

    2 Weeks ago: https://www.bicycleretailer.com/indu...cling-business

    Last week: https://www.bike-eu.com/home/nieuws/...buyer-10135310


    TL;DR, Amer hasn't been seeing profit off its cycling division and wants to offload. Understandable as ENVE commands a massive premium (not going to sell much on the top end)....and TBH Mavic had been making the very latest in 1990s rims up until...well....2017 is a decent date to pin it (the release of the "new" Open Pro UST). And, for the money, there have been better options than their proprietary wheel systems for a very long time.


    The Mavic Ks (and R-Sys) in particular were funny historically...as aerodynamically they performed so badly, even ignoring the premium price. I remember back a bit over 10 years ago they came in basically dead last in an apples-apples aero comparison across a ton of brands: Great wheel test 2008 – Part 1 – Aerodynamics | Roues Artisanales
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    I have owned multiple sets across different genres of bikes including off road.

    Have a new set of Ksyrium's right now. I have what?...20K miles on Mavic wheels.
    How long have Ksyrium's been popular? Forever.

    https://www.bikeradar.com/gear/categ...-review-50420/

    You can of course throw them under the bus without proof, certainly your prerogative. People make unfounded allegations all the time.
    You may want to start with Google or check the user reviews on this site. Not to mention, if you search this forum, you will see there isn't much love for Mavic.

    I'm glad they have worked out for you. Some will never have a problem due to various factors like weight, whether your a strong rider and whether you ride a lot of hills or mostly flat.

    Bikeradar rates new equipment for performance. I'm sure they will perform well when new.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    That's quite a bit you post Marc. You an insider? You know the cost structure?

    Can you post your sources? Would love to learn more.

    Is this like the Campy thread? Is Campy dying along with Mavic? Are they related? Are the directors of each company fellow bingo players? Maybe belong to the same Polo club or kids go to the same private schools? It maybe a conspiracy.
    Mavic wheels are not intelligently engineered, completely proprietary crap. They make a million wheels so it's not unexpected that many will hold up just fine. I could go on and on about the proprietary design and why it's not smart. Take the Ksyrium for example. An aluminum rim w/ huge threaded holes for the proprietary aluminum (wtf were they thinking there?) spokes/nipples. The nipple threads into the huge threaded hole...stress riser anyone? The spokes are very un-aerodynamic. They also tend to corrode and get stuck in either the rim or the nipple making impossible to true and/or replace them. The rims started off kinda light but they had problems w/ the cracking so they added material to the rim...the last place you want add rotating weight (you remember physics class right? moment of inertia?). Then we get to the stupid freehub...it's pretty much the only freehub in the world that has only 1 bearing. The plastic bushing on the hub side needs to be oiled on a regular basis or it wears very quickly and drags/makes noise.
    I have no love for Enve either. They are one of a very few manufacturers that insist on using internal nipples. There is no good reason to continue doing this. If you don't know I am in the industry. I've had problems w/ their rims dating back to pre-Enve (Edge composites) days.
    It's great your wheels have worked out for you...but don't try to argue w/ only your experience vs industry people that have orders of magnitude more experience. I'm probably the only guy on this site that has actually worked for a pro team that used Mavic wheels.

    ETA: I see you're a Campy fan boy too...this is making a little more sense now.
    Last edited by cxwrench; 02-19-2019 at 01:44 PM.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    My experience. I am a strong recreational cyclist and on the bigger side. Have owned other Mavic wheelsets. Bikeradar rated them properly per the link I provided.
    Many prefer Ksyrium's to Campy's widely popular Zonda's which are a bit less expensive...Campy's most popular value wheelset. Suffice to say they are easily equivalent. I own each in 17mm inner width. Both sets stay dead true. Many believe the Ksyrium's are less stiff than Zonda's and overall a better wheel. I rate both the same...outstanding at their price point.

    Re-read Bikeradar's review. Ksyrium's have been around for several years. Its OK if you don't believe the review. I have first hand experience. Have owned them on other bikes as well. You have to pay a lot more for a fractionally better wheelset is the bottom line.

    Here is another flattering review of the Ksyrium's which echo's Bikeradar's review which comports with 'reputation' you can also choose to not believe as that is of course your choice.

    https://www.cyclingweekly.com/editor...heelset-362865

    What can I say? User reviews don't lie unless you believe a former disgruntled Mavic employee is making multiple fictitious accounts. You don't believe that, do you? See below:

    https://www.roadbikereview.com/produ...ium-elite.html

    I should also say thay CXWrench has been wrenching bikes for a long time and he's most likely seen it all.

    If Mavic Ksyrium Elites have worked for you, great. But don't come here acting like a shill.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    My experience. I am a strong recreational cyclist and on the bigger side. Have owned other Mavic wheelsets. Bikeradar rated them properly per the link I provided.
    Many prefer Ksyrium's to Campy's widely popular Zonda's which are a bit less expensive...Campy's most popular value wheelset. Suffice to say they are easily equivalent. I own each in 17mm inner width. Both sets stay dead true. Many believe the Ksyrium's are less stiff than Zonda's and overall a better wheel. I rate both the same...outstanding at their price point.

    Re-read Bikeradar's review. Ksyrium's have been around for several years. Its OK if you don't believe the review. I have first hand experience. Have owned them on other bikes as well. You have to pay a lot more for a fractionally better wheelset is the bottom line.

    Here is another flattering review of the Ksyrium's which echo's Bikeradar's review which comports with 'reputation' you can also choose to not believe as that is of course your choice.

    https://www.cyclingweekly.com/editor...heelset-362865

    You are critical of others making claims about the poor quality of Mavic wheels using anecdotal evidence to support their claims, and then do the exact same thing to claim that that are wrong.

    You can't have it both ways.

  20. #20
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    I don’t have much of a comparison... I’ve only ridden a few wheels. But my Mavics have been bomb proof. Wheel upgrade is always a goal, but I am tepid sometimes because I have thousands of miles on these wheels and I have done awful, terrible things to them, and they have been unphased. I’m not qualified to endorse the wheel set but I can add that they have stood up to incredible abuse and keep on being true and sound... I have ridden such awful surfaces that I’m a little afraid to switch to CF wheels...
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    One of my degrees is in Physics. I am picking up what you are laying down and even appreciate your experience even if I don't necessarily agree with your 'scientific' analysis...nor do the Mavic engineers that created these long standing wheels in the industry.

    Moment of inertia about the center of rotation aka the axle is based upon rim weight which is localized around the spokes which in theory adds strength locally where needed and subtracts it where stresses are lower. Its a pretty basic concept. Most have owned Al rims that have been lightweight and maybe even seen a cracked rim at the nipple. Mavic's design mitigates this. Your argument is bunk...sorry because overall wheel weight is in the 15xxg range which is very competitive in the industry for this material, rim depth and price point.

    And of course an often compared wheelset, the Campy Zonda which I also own... has a similar design whereby the spoke section is locally reinforced. See picture.

    OK, you don't like Enve, Mavic and Campagnolo.
    I guess your point is that mavic 11spd wheels are roadworthy.......right?

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    can you provide an example of what you perceive as a double standard. I own the wheels and have owned previous generations. This is my personal experience. Does that make it anecdotal?
    You using your singular personal experience as proof that all of the naysayers are wrong is dictionary definition of anecdotal. No one here is providing any significant statistical evidence that anyone else is right or wrong, including you. Your own singular personal (anecdotal) experience is not proof that "Mavic makes good wheels".

    an·ec·do·tal

    /ˌanəkˈdōdl/
    adjective
    (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.
    "while there was much anecdotal evidence there was little hard fact"
    synonyms: informal, unreliable, based on hearsay; unscientific
    "the evidence is merely anecdotal"


    • characterized by or fond of telling anecdotes. "her book is anecdotal and chatty"



    Edit to add: I would consider CX's personal experiences as non-anecdotal, as he is a long tenured bike mechanic with considerable experience with both Mavic and other brands of wheels
    Last edited by Finx; 02-20-2019 at 07:36 AM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    Been written before about the single bearing in the freehub.
    Do you have a suggested service interval? Do you recommend removing the freehub from the hub entirely for 'oiling it'...and/or removing the axle for access?

    Sounds like you have a lot of experience servicing Mavic and would appreciate your advice.

    Thanks
    It really depends on a few variables, most importantly mileage. I would recommend every 1500-2000mi. The freehub has to come off to do this, which is the only good point (IMO) about Mavic wheels...they are easy to service.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    Agree...about right. Some guys actually like the hub/bushing design. Here is one mechanic's perspective:

    https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Mavi...w-To_4006.html

    But I tend to agree with you Cx about a bearing versus a bushing...just isn't a show stopper for me.

    But with vigilant care....here is one owner's perspective:

    Maintenance does come into play with any wheel set.. as for Mavic, I have used these Cosmic Elite's for over ten years as my DD training wheels. They were sent back to Mavic and completely rebuilt about 5 years ago... Overall I would say the wheels had about 20,000 miles before overhaul and probably 3,000 since... The design inside may look weak but I have used Specialized, Campagnolo and Mavic predominantly for 30 years in both racing and training. Rarely have I had a problem with my Mavic's, which is more than I can say for any Specialized wheels and Campagnolo are also good but as far as everyday training / racing wheels Mavic's wheels are superior in that they have always performed as intended.... Without breaking the bank...

    And the following is a video. Pretty good guy who seems like an average wrench. Nothing complicated about the design. And yes, this owner is spot on about the sensitivity of adjusting lash with cartridge bearings...they are fussy about preload...more so than ball and cone found on some high end hubs. I will say the new K's I have roll forever. I am fine with cartridge bearings as well.

    The gentleman that provided this tutorial had 4.5K miles on his K's before he opened them up for the first time and they were fine. Worth a look for Mavic owners. A bit comical how he 'oiled the bearings'...no effort to pop the seals:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyOI_zI7HWk
    Wait a minute. Isn't your experience that Mavic Ksyriums are unequivocally awesome and lasted you 20K miles? Why are you now asking how to to service the hubs when they are so good they don't need this? I'm confused.
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  25. #25
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    Same here!
    Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them you'll be a mile away & you'll have their shoes.

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