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  1. #1
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    Chainrings

    So...ordering SRAM Force 22 for a vintage frame and am debating between 50/34 chainrings and 53/39. Would appreciate folks' thoughts on advantages/disadvantages either way.

    The larger rings use 130mm bolt circle diameter that has been in common use forever. The smaller rings use a 110mm BCD. Also a smaller jump between 53/39 vs 50/34...not sure whether that's important.

    Going with 11-25 tooth cogs in back. 11/12/13/14/15/16/17/19/21/23/25.

    Sheldon Brown's gear calc doesn't reveal any pluses or minuses to me, but maybe someone better in the know can offer insight.


    Thanks in advance.

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    Do you race? Do you ride a high cadence or a slow one?

    The compact crank was designed as a better alternative for the recreational rider than the ubiquitous triple of the 1990s/early 2000s. It offers a wide range of gears without the sloppy shifting of a triple crankset. It is definitely an improvement for a high cadence rider like me, but I can see it being detrimental for someone who competes.
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    It all depends how much low gearing you need for hill climbing and how overall strong a rider you are. Since you are going with not much low gearing in the cassette, unless you are a super strong rider or only ride in Key West, FL, you will probably want the 50/34 crankset.
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    How steep are your hills and what's your hp/lb?
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    Where do you live? What kind of parcour do you ride? Now often do you use a 53/11? My biggest gear is 50/12 and I don’t spend a lot of time there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mml373 View Post
    So...ordering SRAM Force 22 for a vintage frame and am debating between 50/34 chainrings and 53/39. Would appreciate folks' thoughts on advantages/disadvantages either way.

    The larger rings use 130mm bolt circle diameter that has been in common use forever. The smaller rings use a 110mm BCD. Also a smaller jump between 53/39 vs 50/34...not sure whether that's important.

    Going with 11-25 tooth cogs in back. 11/12/13/14/15/16/17/19/21/23/25.

    Sheldon Brown's gear calc doesn't reveal any pluses or minuses to me, but maybe someone better in the know can offer insight.


    Thanks in advance.
    Another vote for the 50-34.

    50-12 is very close to the old racing standard, 53-13. 50-11 is 10 gear inches higher! So you'll never run out of gears in a race.

    Yes, as Eddy once said, "If you want to go fast, pedal fast." 50-11 spins out [90 rpm?] at 32 mph. 53-11 at 90 rpm is 34 mph, a dream few mortals will ever reach.

    34-25 will give you better climbing gears. These days 39-25 is pretty tall. 27 or 28 is more typical. You'll suffer more on the steeper climbs in 39-25.

    The 34 will bring those closely spaced larger cogs right where you'll use them, with smaller jumps from one gear to the next.

    BikeCalc.com - Bicycle Gear Inches Chart

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    What gearing are you riding these days? Like has already been asked, how often are you in a 53\11? How strong are you, are you a spinner or a masher? Put usable gears on the bike, not gears that you think you can use, and only you know what those are.

    What good is a 53x11 if it's bigger than you're going to use? And no matter what size crank, what good is an 11 cog if you never go past the 13 or 12?

    These days my go to bike has a 46\30 crank and a 12-25 cassette, and I just got a 13-25 cassette to replace it when it's wore out. 50\34's on my other riders, and I've got a 50 and a 48 to choose between to swap out an old Super Record 52 before I ride that one again.
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    Appreciate all the replies! Thanks, y'all!

    I am in Florida now (flat) but will return to the St. Louis area at the end of the year. Springfield, MO and rides in the Ozarks are likely...but rolling hills are a certainty. I am a lightweight spinner, fit, but I don't have the heft and strength to push a 53x11 in a sprint. That gear is only useful to me on a long downhill. Sounds like the 50/34 is going to be my best option. No racing but I will ride fast group rides where I'm not the strongest rider.

    Bike is currently set up with 52/42 x 13,15,17,19,21,23, 1986 vintage Shimano 600 as best I can tell. Going with a modern group such as Force 22 on this vintage frame is going to be a big improvement in terms of ergonomics, though the vintage 600 is pretty buttery smooth and has been robust so I can't imagine much room for improvement in terms of reliability and just flat out reliable operation. Rounding the group out with a middle-of-the-road (by today's standards) set of wheels and spreading the stays for the 11-speed cogset will hopefully lead to a nice riding vintage-ish bike that serves for another 20 years.
    Last edited by mml373; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mml373 View Post
    Appreciate all the replies! Thanks, y'all!

    I am in Florida now (flat) but will return to the St. Louis area at the end of the year. Springfield, MO and rides in the Ozarks are likely...but rolling hills are a certainty. I am a lightweight spinner, fit, but I don't have the heft and strength to push a 53x11 in a sprint. That gear is only useful to me on a long downhill. Sounds like the 50/34 is going to be my best option. No racing but I will ride fast group rides where I'm not the strongest rider.

    Bike is currently set up with 52/42 x 13,15,17,19,21,23, 1986 vintage Shimano 600 as best I can tell. Going with a modern group such as Force 22 on this vintage frame is going to be a big improvement in terms of ergonomics, though the vintage 600 is pretty buttery smooth and has been robust so I can't imagine much room for improvement in terms of reliability and just flat out reliable operation. Rounding the group out with a middle-of-the-road (by today's standards) set of wheels and spreading the stays for the 11-speed cogset will hopefully lead to a nice riding vintage-ish bike that serves for another 20 years.
    Well, you could just put on a crank that takes 50-34 chain rings! You'll then have all useable gears in back, between 50-13 high and 34-23 low. The 600 rear derailleur may not have the range to pick up the additional slack, though.

    Or you could just put on a standard 13-28 six speed freewheel, without having to widen the chain stays or put on a new wheel with a wider rear axle. Keep the Shimano 600 drivetrain if it's still "buttery smooth." I rode 600EX back in '80-83. It was about like Shimano Ultegra is now. Decent stuff! Period correct, if that matters.

    The Ozarks is pretty hilly! Rideable in 52/42 and 13-28, but you're gonna work hard in 42-23. It sure would be easier in 50/34--with the same 6 speed freewheel! Jumping across fewer gears, the legs will have to change cadence more radically, which is often somewhat painful when they're tired, but will encourage a nice spin, train the aerobic fibers, improve recovery times, and make harder riding less painful.

    Others will tell you smaller steps in cadence better trains the legs, that it keeps them at desired intensity levels seamlessly. But I've noticed riders generally don't like to vary cadence once they find their "sweet spot," so don't automatically get that variable leg speed benefit. They have to think about it and shift into the gear at any given moment the legs can pedal fast. Admittedly an incidental reward if stuck with 6 speeds.

    Team Sky riders train to climb at fast cadences. They're not doing it in 42-23, but more like 34-28. So there ya go. Change out the crank. Hope the rear derailleur picks up the slack between the new 50 and 34.

    Or do a rebuild, upgrading into 11 speed gearing: widen the chain stays, wider rear wheel, new gears, derailleur, crank, shifters, possibly new brake calipers [I think the lever throw would be the same].

    I realize this may be a labor of love, but you'd save money buying a more recent used bike, set up just like what you lust for! Keep the old '86 ride period correct, like an old Porsche. What make and model is it?

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    My suggestion is to get a med or large RD now. Your not going to like the 25 in the ozarks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Well, you could just put on a crank that takes 50-34 chain rings! You'll then have all useable gears in back, between 50-13 high and 34-23 low. The 600 rear derailleur may not have the range to pick up the additional slack, though.

    Or you could just put on a standard 13-28 six speed freewheel, without having to widen the chain stays or put on a new wheel with a wider rear axle. Keep the Shimano 600 drivetrain if it's still "buttery smooth." I rode 600EX back in '80-83. It was about like Shimano Ultegra is now. Decent stuff! Period correct, if that matters.

    The Ozarks is pretty hilly! Rideable in 52/42 and 13-28, but you're gonna work hard in 42-23. It sure would be easier in 50/34--with the same 6 speed freewheel! Jumping across fewer gears, the legs will have to change cadence more radically, which is often somewhat painful when they're tired, but will encourage a nice spin, train the aerobic fibers, improve recovery times, and make harder riding less painful.

    Others will tell you smaller steps in cadence better trains the legs, that it keeps them at desired intensity levels seamlessly. But I've noticed riders generally don't like to vary cadence once they find their "sweet spot," so don't automatically get that variable leg speed benefit. They have to think about it and shift into the gear at any given moment the legs can pedal fast. Admittedly an incidental reward if stuck with 6 speeds.

    Team Sky riders train to climb at fast cadences. They're not doing it in 42-23, but more like 34-28. So there ya go. Change out the crank. Hope the rear derailleur picks up the slack between the new 50 and 34.

    Or do a rebuild, upgrading into 11 speed gearing: widen the chain stays, wider rear wheel, new gears, derailleur, crank, shifters, possibly new brake calipers [I think the lever throw would be the same].

    I realize this may be a labor of love, but you'd save money buying a more recent used bike, set up just like what you lust for! Keep the old '86 ride period correct, like an old Porsche. What make and model is it?
    IRD makes their Defiant cranksets in both a compact 50\34 and a subcompact 46\30 that has the look of the old Record and earlier Shimano 600 cranks.

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    IRD makes their Defiant cranksets in both a compact 50\34 and a subcompact 46\30 that has the look of the old Record and earlier Shimano 600 cranks.

    Crank Arms / Chainrings — Interloc Racing Design / IRD
    Well I guess the subcompact 46/30 would be a good option if you want to keep the "corncob" cassette. Though not sure how smooth it will shift. Shimano's latest groupos have nearly eliminated chain drop issues.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Well I guess the subcompact 46/30 would be a good option if you want to keep the "corncob" cassette. Though not sure how smooth it will shift. Shimano's latest groupos have nearly eliminated chain drop issues.
    It shifts fine. Have a 175mm set I used for a year I bought used (on the cheap) before moving to something lighter. Still sitting on the shelf, not a whole lot of demand for taper equipment.

    175mm 46/30 IRD Defiant with a UN55 BB is about 1Kg, versus, FSA SL-K 46/30 cranks with BB that is about 600 grams. Yup. A full pound.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Well I guess the subcompact 46/30 would be a good option if you want to keep the "corncob" cassette. Though not sure how smooth it will shift. Shimano's latest groupos have nearly eliminated chain drop issues.
    I'm running one on an 11spd group and it's never missed a shift. It's a 16 tooth difference, just like a 50\34 so why would you expect problems?

    With his current freewheel that's about a 93inch big gear and 34inch small. Just another option.
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    I'm running one on an 11spd group and it's never missed a shift. It's a 16 tooth difference, just like a 50\34 so why would you expect problems?
    Well I don't really know, I just know when I went from my 5700 groupo to my 6800, my chain drop woes were nearly eliminated. That could be for more than one reason, but most likely either:

    1) The better pins and ramps on my 6800 crankset vs. the cheapo FSA Gossamer crankset with my 5700 groupo. Or,

    2) The extra downward trip position on the 5800/6800/9000 shifters vs. the 5700/6700/7900 shifters. Or,

    A combination of both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mml373 View Post
    .... and rides in the Ozarks are likely...but rolling hills are a certainty. ...

    Bike is currently set up with 52/42 x 13,15,17,19,21,23, 1986 vintage Shimano 600 as best I can tell. .....
    Well, unless you are training for "king of the mountains" in the TdF, I think you'll find that a 42/21 combo ain't gonna get you far in the Ozarks. Also, you haven't said what frame you are doing this on, but it has to be at least 30 years old, and you may find certain incompatibilities with your choice of groupset and your frame. First off, you most likely have a frame with 126mm dropout spacing. What spacing does your new groupset require? What material is the frame made from? What type bottom bracket does the frame have, and what does the groupset require? Your old 6-cog wheels are almost certainly a freewheel type, but this groupset requires a freehub, so the wheelset needs to be replaced as well. Sounds like you need to replace EVERYTHING but the frame; why not just buy an entire used bike that works?

    In the end, putting a modern groupset into an incompatible frame means you just have an unrideable, expensive pile of parts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    Well, unless you are training for "king of the mountains" in the TdF, I think you'll find that a 42/21 combo ain't gonna get you far in the Ozarks. Also, you haven't said what frame you are doing this on, but it has to be at least 30 years old, and you may find certain incompatibilities with your choice of groupset and your frame. First off, you most likely have a frame with 126mm dropout spacing. What spacing does your new groupset require? What material is the frame made from? What type bottom bracket does the frame have, and what does the groupset require? Your old 6-cog wheels are almost certainly a freewheel type, but this groupset requires a freehub, so the wheelset needs to be replaced as well. Sounds like you need to replace EVERYTHING but the frame; why not just buy an entire used bike that works?

    In the end, putting a modern groupset into an incompatible frame means you just have an unrideable, expensive pile of parts.
    Hmmm. This does raise some compatibility questions. A 1986 frame will most certainly be a 126mm dropout. Anything 8-speed and beyond will be a 130mm dropout spacing. Not sure how feasible it is to try and stretch your dropouts. And yes, you will need a new rear wheel.

    Vintage bikes are nice, but you may want to keep this one as-is for easier rides and buy something more modern for the challenging stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    In the end, putting a modern groupset into an incompatible frame means you just have an unrideable, expensive pile of parts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Vintage bikes are nice, but you may want to keep this one as-is for easier rides and buy something more modern for the challenging stuff.
    I think it all hinges on what frameset it is. There are plenty of us that have successfully up graded 80's frameset with new groups. I've done it with an 80's De Rosa and a 10spd Campagnolo group, and have never looked back.

    But if it's a lower end frame, it may not be worth it, that's up to the owner to decide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post

    I realize this may be a labor of love, but you'd save money buying a more recent used bike, set up just like what you lust for! Keep the old '86 ride period correct, like an old Porsche. What make and model is it?
    Fredrico,

    Thanks for this info. I'd keep the vintage parts on the bike except for the fact I want something more comfortable (bar end shifting), better wheels, and more gear choices for the hills. I have read through other replies and think the 34 chainring and 25 large cog will serve me fine. 42x23 was just fine on a century in the foothills of the Appalachians years ago and I'm lightweight and a natural climber anyway.

    Parts are going on an '86 Specialized Allez or I might put them on my '93 Serotta. Both frames are lively and enjoyable to ride. Newer bikes just don't suit, for some reason, and vintage steel just feels right. I have tried newer carbon bike and aluminum but just keep coming back to old steel. Yeah, the bike is intended to be a topic of conversation on future group rides such as BikeMS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    Well, unless you are training for "king of the mountains" in the TdF, I think you'll find that a 42/21 combo ain't gonna get you far in the Ozarks. Also, you haven't said what frame you are doing this on, but it has to be at least 30 years old, and you may find certain incompatibilities with your choice of groupset and your frame. First off, you most likely have a frame with 126mm dropout spacing. What spacing does your new groupset require? What material is the frame made from? What type bottom bracket does the frame have, and what does the groupset require? Your old 6-cog wheels are almost certainly a freewheel type, but this groupset requires a freehub, so the wheelset needs to be replaced as well. Sounds like you need to replace EVERYTHING but the frame; why not just buy an entire used bike that works?

    In the end, putting a modern groupset into an incompatible frame means you just have an unrideable, expensive pile of parts.
    Thank you for your reply. I have already looked into this. Frame is steel and suitable to spread the 126mm stays to 130mm to accommodate the wider back hubs . The GXP bottom bracket will suit.

    I kinda see this as potentially the last opportunity I'll have to ride vintage steel with new parts. Looks like things are going to electronic shifting and disc brakes. So when this bike is finally worn out when 25 years from now when I'm 70, I'll look at just buying a new bike then. :-)

  21. #21
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    You might want to consider to have the rear triangle professionally spread to 130mm, and have the dropout faces made parallel.
    It's not absolutely necessary, but with 11 speed , everything needs to be as close to perfect as it can be...….
    Note: Few people need an 11 tooth cog. You don't need one to go faster downhill.
    Not sure if they make a 12-25 11 speed cassette anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_GRUMPY View Post
    You might want to consider to have the rear triangle professionally spread to 130mm, and have the dropout faces made parallel.
    It's not absolutely necessary, but with 11 speed , everything needs to be as close to perfect as it can be...….
    Note: Few people need an 11 tooth cog. You don't need one to go faster downhill.
    Not sure if they make a 12-25 11 speed cassette anymore.
    Campagnolo does, I think Shimano does too. Don't know about SRAM. And if they don't make what you're looking for a Miche can be built how you want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_GRUMPY View Post
    You might want to consider to have the rear triangle professionally spread to 130mm, and have the dropout faces made parallel.
    It's not absolutely necessary, but with 11 speed , everything needs to be as close to perfect as it can be...….
    Note: Few people need an 11 tooth cog. You don't need one to go faster downhill.
    Not sure if they make a 12-25 11 speed cassette anymore.
    I have a friend with vintage frame Italian bikes, his 2 Casatis are fabulous. He said the upgrade was a snap, but he kept it 10 speed and they had Campy and he went Campy on upgrade. He’s very mechanically competent and everything himself. I’d say frames are late 80s and he upgraded them about 3-4 years ago before a terrible illness set him back a few years. He’s tuning them up to try riding again. I volunteered to be his domestique. He’s gun shy as his first sign of illness came on a 60 mile bike ride. Anyway, point is, you don’t need 11 speed if it complicates the upgrade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mml373 View Post
    Thank you for your reply. I have already looked into this. Frame is steel and suitable to spread the 126mm stays to 130mm to accommodate the wider back hubs . The GXP bottom bracket will suit.

    I kinda see this as potentially the last opportunity I'll have to ride vintage steel with new parts. Looks like things are going to electronic shifting and disc brakes. So when this bike is finally worn out when 25 years from now when I'm 70, I'll look at just buying a new bike then. :-)
    You'll still be riding those bikes of steel when you're 75! Ask me how I know. Just now considering switching over to smaller chainrings on the trusty '84 DeRosa. 42-23 is getting a little ridiculous on the serious climbs.

    I'd guess you'll leave the stem and headset and maybe the handlebars alone? By all means keep that nice steel fork! Threaded 68mm wide BBs are still around. Not sure if the tapers on the Shimano crank spindle, if you're going to use it, match the old Campy standard. If mismatched, the crank would go on too far or not far enough.

    Grumps is right. You might luck out and get the dropout spread symmetrical, but they'll end up skewed out a bit, and the wheel might not always go in straight. The cogs might then be out of parallel with the derailleur and not shift properly. It probably takes more than those fork alignment tools the LBS has to make the dropouts parallel. But they'd be a great tool to determine whether the dropouts are parallel or not.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 4 Weeks Ago at 12:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    You'll still be riding those bikes of steel when you're 75!
    I know guys in their mid-80's who still ride.
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