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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    My LBS must have 25 of them on the floor. Every time I go in there some salesman asks me if I want to try an ebike.
    do you just appear completely lost when you visit? or are they simply that out of touch? is that the only lbs in your area? next visit, wear a t-shirt that reads, "ebikes suck balls." we can lick this little problem, i know it.
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    EBikes are born and see what happens ^^^^^^^^^!
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  3. #53
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    e-roadbikes are great. they add to the numbers on the bike lanes and MUT commuting. That helps justify the region's heavy spending on bike infrastructure. May even have made a dent on reducing the outrageous traffic jams in the morning too, perhaps.

    I can't see me using an e roadbike though. I do own one, and never use it. Just built it DIY to see if I liked it. I can't commute to work with it though, and if I want a workout I prefer a normal road bike.

    eMTB are brilliant though, depending on the local trail types. Here the trails are so steep and brutal, so I am seeing a growing number of eMTB on there. they fit in seamlessly, like any other MTBer. They just climb like a fast MTB racer, and go down as slow as a non-e MTBer. It's an alternative to shuttling MTB with trucks. Might help reduce the 'weekend warrior heart attacks' too. A friend of mine died a few years ago of an MI while MTB, maybe an eMTB would have allowed him to ride with less risk of heart overstressing? I know my cardiologist has warned me against riding too hard (bad heart valve).
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    e-roadbikes are great. they add to the numbers on the bike lanes and MUT commuting. That helps justify the region's heavy spending on bike infrastructure. May even have made a dent on reducing the outrageous traffic jams in the morning too, perhaps.
    Truely, one of the signs of the APOCALYPSE has to be seeing traffic jams on your MUT!

    Our original MUT was built back in the '80s and for a decade, pretty much belonged to cyclists, the odd jogger who obviously made a wrong turn somewhere, a fisherman in search of the elusive Moby Blue Gill and pervs. Glory days when cyclists were KINGS with the ability to go all out and not worry about carz, traffic lights or REGULATIONS OF ANY KIND!

    Then, people discovered the gem in the heart of the city, and expanded it into one of the most extensive networks in the country where, at chokepoints, JAMS!

    Trails are for WUSSIES ON EBIKES! (runs and hides).

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akirasho View Post
    Truely, one of the signs of the APOCALYPSE has to be seeing traffic jams on your MUT!

    Our original MUT was built back in the '80s and for a decade, pretty much belonged to cyclists, the odd jogger who obviously made a wrong turn somewhere, a fisherman in search of the elusive Moby Blue Gill and pervs. Glory days when cyclists were KINGS with the ability to go all out and not worry about carz, traffic lights or REGULATIONS OF ANY KIND!

    Then, people discovered the gem in the heart of the city, and expanded it into one of the most extensive networks in the country where, at chokepoints, JAMS!

    Trails are for WUSSIES ON EBIKES! (runs and hides).
    MUTs have been crowded in the DC area since the '80s. They're mainly populated by pedestrians, baby carriages, parents taking the kids out on their bikes, and weekend warriors. On summer weekends serious riders take the roads as soon as they get out of town. Al Gore got the feds to step up and mandate paved shoulders on the roads they partially fund. Motorists got used to us, and are generally cool.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Yeah, but you're not gonna keep up with 'em. Just not fair.
    Depends on the mode they're in. When in the "off" mode they are riding a bike that weighs 3 times as much as mine. On steep twisting downhills it's a toss up. The story admittedly changes a bit in the four "on" modes while climbing.

    Can't tell you how much fun I've had riding in the mountains with my wife since she's been on the e-bike for mountain rides. She's always been a good descender (comes from her MTB background) so the waiting is reduced to a short time at the bottom of the passes.

    Her heart has always remained with mountain biking so we just ordered two full suspension e-mtb's and will spending much more time on the dirt in the mountains. I've had a few rides on e-mtbs (no suspension) and can't believe how much fun they are on steep loose trails. I was involved in motocross racing in the earliest days of the sport and that path took me into mtb riding for training and eventually to mtb racing. It's like a full circle now but without the noise and smell and with a better cardio workout. We're both looking forward to it.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    Depends on the mode they're in. When in the "off" mode they are riding a bike that weighs 3 times as much as mine. On steep twisting downhills it's a toss up. The story admittedly changes a bit in the four "on" modes while climbing.

    Can't tell you how much fun I've had riding in the mountains with my wife since she's been on the e-bike for mountain rides. She's always been a good descender (comes from her MTB background) so the waiting is reduced to a short time at the bottom of the passes.

    Her heart has always remained with mountain biking so we just ordered two full suspension e-mtb's and will spending much more time on the dirt in the mountains. I've had a few rides on e-mtbs (no suspension) and can't believe how much fun they are on steep loose trails. I was involved in motocross racing in the earliest days of the sport and that path took me into mtb riding for training and eventually to mtb racing. It's like a full circle now but without the noise and smell and with a better cardio workout. We're both looking forward to it.
    Can;t stop progress. At least you have the opportunity to beat the missus down the mountain and proudly wait for her to catch up at the bottom. Can also appreciate assist for mountain terrain, steeper grades and such that would challenge the limits of leg strength.

    Are the motors hooked into the bottom bracket? Does rider modulate assist with a throttle, or just set it at one of 3-4 power modes and click in the one depending on the grade? Does the bike feel like a regular bike except moving the pedals around is slightly easier?

    I temped at an electric bike manufacturer in NVA. They outfitted mountain bike frames with a front wheel that held a big hub battery and rear wheel that held a big hub motor. I spoked on 26" rims and 1,75 street tires. The speed was controlled by a throttle, like SRAM Twist Grip. Rider could also pedal 3 x 8 gears.

    I didn't like the throttle grip. If I moved my hand or took it off the grip, the motor would slow the bike way down; it was always in gear. To ride, one had to hold the grip steady and pedal, which I found rather difficult. I realized choosing the right gear and coordinating pedal power with the rear hub motor controlled by the right hand was going to be a PITA to learn. So hopped on my svelte 24# manual bike with down tube friction shifters, and rode home, drafting the cars the whole way. Kind of like comparing a sail boat to an outboard motorboat. . They started as a military contractor designing a bike that would move troops with out emitting heat, and ran out of business in '06.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidalf...ectric_Bicycle
    Last edited by Fredrico; 12-22-2018 at 06:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Can;t stop progress. At least you have the opportunity to beat the missus down the mountain and proudly wait for her to catch up at the bottom. Can also appreciate assist for mountain terrain, steeper grades and such that would challenge the limits of leg strength.

    Are the motors hooked into the bottom bracket? Does rider modulate assist with a throttle, or just set it at one of 3-4 power modes and click in the one depending on the grade? Does the bike feel like a regular bike except moving the pedals around is slightly easier?

    I temped at an electric bike manufacturer in NVA. They outfitted mountain bike frames with a front wheel that held a big hub battery and rear wheel that held a big hub motor. I spoked on 26" rims and 1,75 street tires. The speed was controlled by a throttle, like SRAM Twist Grip. Rider could also pedal 3 x 8 gears.

    I didn't like the throttle grip. If I moved my hand or took it off the grip, the motor would slow the bike way down; it was always in gear. To ride, one had to hold the grip steady and pedal, which I found rather difficult. I realized choosing the right gear and coordinating pedal power with the rear hub motor controlled by the right hand was going to be a PITA to learn. So hopped on my svelte 24# manual bike with down tube friction shifters, and rode home, drafting the cars the whole way. Kind of like comparing a sail boat to an outboard motorboat. . They started as a military contractor designing a bike that would move troops with out emitting heat, and ran out of business in '06.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidalf...ectric_Bicycle
    The Bosch system is bottom bracket located. It has four modes but the bike will not move until you pedal and it's speed in each mode will be controlled entirely by how hard you pedal.

    My wife's current bike is the bosch system and is very intuitive. Each successive mode makes you feel stronger. The eco mode just a little stronger, the tour mode stronger yet and by setting the assist on turbo you pretty much feel TDF ready. If you pedal hard you can go up a 6% grade at 18mph assuming rider at 190lbs providing 250 watts of his own.

    The MTBs (bosch also) will have a 20mph limitation at which time they will no longer increase assist when the riders input increases. You can go whatever speed you want on the downhills (like a regular bike).

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    The Bosch system is bottom bracket located. It has four modes but the bike will not move until you pedal and it's speed in each mode will be controlled entirely by how hard you pedal.

    My wife's current bike is the bosch system and is very intuitive. Each successive mode makes you feel stronger. The eco mode just a little stronger, the tour mode stronger yet and by setting the assist on turbo you pretty much feel TDF ready. If you pedal hard you can go up a 6% grade at 18mph assuming rider at 190lbs providing 250 watts of his own.

    The MTBs (bosch also) will have a 20mph limitation at which time they will no longer increase assist when the riders input increases. You can go whatever speed you want on the downhills (like a regular bike).
    Sounds luxurious! The thrill of pure aerobic speed! The ultimate endurance machine. So which dies first, the battery or the rider? The rider takes in some carbs, but the battery doesn't charge back up along with the rider.

    How about a generator hooked into the hub that charges up the battery while riding? The laws of physics apparently forbid full restoration of energy lost by heat, but theoretically the battery might only have to be charged up once a week, or every couple of hundred miles. The harder the rider pedals, does that mean the assist also works harder, or does it contribute a smaller share of the energy?

    I appreciate that rider can soft pedal or coast on the freewheel, as the motor powers the crank, not the wheel. That's "natural" to the physical exercise, so would be fun to play with, as you say.

    This new tech. is truly amazing. More bikes out there is good. So what if half are cheating? All it takes for general fitness is moving the pedals around the crank. Busting a$$ is icing on the cake.

    Like passing climbers at 16 mph, 110 rpm in 42-23, for 8-12 seconds. That's all it takes on some of the short bumps on the MUT. Sustained climbing would be awesome with electric assist!

  10. #60
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    Regarding dirt mopeds... sorry, "e-mountain bikes", I feel like this is phase-two of the softening of riders. Back in the 80s and early 90s, when we wanted to ride down a mountain, we first rode up the mountain. It was the reward for the hours of climbing.

    We - the aging XC racers - watched the evolution... ski lifts loaded with bikes. Trucks/busses pulling trailers loaded with bikes driving to the top to dump the downhillers. Then the bikes changed - manufacturers realizing "Hey, the young guys aren't riding up the mountain anyway, let's give'em a $&@# ton of travel and make it more fun... and sell'em more bikes.

    But those guys - the guys on the 35lb downhill bikes - did still have to pedal up some sections - brutal work on those bikes.

    And now, a &%^#ing throttle.

    I do love the excuses "The mountains are really steep where I live." Yeah. They're supposed to be. Otherwise, they'd be "Hill Bikes" or "False Flat Bikes"
    Last edited by OldZaskar; 12-30-2018 at 05:05 PM.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldZaskar View Post
    Regarding dirt mopeds... sorry, "e-mountain bikes", I feel like this is phase-two of the softening of riders. Back in the 80s and early 90s, when we wanted to ride down a mountain, we first rode up the mountain. It was the reward for the hours of climbing.

    We - the aging XC racers - watched the evolution... ski lifts loaded with bikes. Trucks/busses pulling trailers loaded with bikes driving to the top to dump the downhillers. Then the bikes changed - manufacturers realizing "Hey, the young guys aren't riding up the mountain anyway, let's give'em a $&@# ton of travel and make it more fun... and sell'em more bikes.

    But those guys - the guys on the 35lb downhill bikes - did still have to pedal up some sections - brutal work on those bikes.

    And now, a &%^#ing throttle.

    I do love the excuses "The mountains are really steep where I live." Yeah. They're supposed to be. Otherwise, they'd be "Hill Bikes" or "False Flat Bikes"
    Motorcycles have had throttles from the beginning--e-bikes, no. Electric motor scooters are another matter and do have throttles.

    But then, this has been pointed out a number of times. Too bad there's no electric assist to help increase the thought process to aid for senility.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    Too bad there's no electric assist to help increase the thought process to aid for senility.
    That's pretty damn funny. ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    Motorcycles have had throttles from the beginning--e-bikes, no.
    That is ridiculous!
    Your telling the world that there is no power control on an e-bike? They just run wide open, 100%, till they are drained? (kinda like my hard training days?)

    I went to look at one of these bikes, but the store didn't have one, so I can't speak definitively, but..... I believe that the throttle is somehow coordinated with the pedals on an ebike. If you don't pedal, you don't get the 300W, up the hill we go boost, better have a helmet on!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    Motorcycles have had throttles from the beginning--e-bikes, no. Electric motor scooters are another matter and do have throttles.

    But then, this has been pointed out a number of times. Too bad there's no electric assist to help increase the thought process to aid for senility.
    I'm not sure where you live, but in the US, ebikes can have throttles. The new specialized emtbs have added shuttle mode, which is cadence sensing, spin the cranks and the motor powers up without any pressure on them. Watch the first 15 seconds to see what I mean.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-...-an-ebike.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by harryman View Post
    I'm not sure where you live, but in the US, ebikes can have throttles. The new specialized emtbs have added shuttle mode, which is cadence sensing, spin the cranks and the motor powers up without any pressure on them. Watch the first 15 seconds to see what I mean.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-...-an-ebike.html
    Your link took me to a video that provided no information but rather shows a MTB with what appears to be a "walk mode" that helps folks walk their 60lb e-MTBs up hills too steep for the rider to make. Unlike a "throttle" it is not "a device controlling the flow of fuel or power to an engine" but rather more of an "on/off" switch that will move the bike at walking speeds.

    I suppose if riding at 4 1/2 mph is your thing it is indeed a motorcycle--however I suspect that BMW and Harley are not quaking in their boots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harryman View Post
    I'm not sure where you live, but in the US, ebikes can have throttles.
    That depends where in the US you are. Throttle bikes are illegal in some cities including New York City.
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    That is ridiculous!
    Your telling the world that there is no power control on an e-bike? They just run wide open, 100%, till they are drained? (kinda like my hard training days?)

    I went to look at one of these bikes, but the store didn't have one, so I can't speak definitively, but..... I believe that the throttle is somehow coordinated with the pedals on an ebike. If you don't pedal, you don't get the 300W, up the hill we go boost, better have a helmet on!
    Actually, I'm saying (and have been saying all along) just the opposite. On nearly all production e-bikes the rider is the throttle-not unlike any other bike. The more power the rider provides, the more power the motor contributes. The bike acts as if you provide more power than you actually do. When you reduce your contribution, the bike slows down-- to and including simply coasting to a stop just like any other bike.

    A "throttle" is a "device" controlling the flow of fuel or power to an engine.
    Last edited by SwiftSolo; 01-02-2019 at 04:21 PM.

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    I have no idea what your trying to say, but.... ebikes have throttles.

    The 'device' hooks somehow onto the pedal system and wouldn't be there if it wasn't an ebike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    I have no idea what your trying to say, but.... ebikes have throttles.

    The 'device' hooks somehow onto the pedal system and wouldn't be there if it wasn't an ebike.
    To help you understand, niether the battery nor the motor would be there either if it wasn't an e-bike.

    But I agree, that some people are "devices" or "tools" that hook onto the pedals.

  20. #70
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    Let's talk throttles:
    On a car or truck, it is run by your right foot. (in the new world)
    On a tractor, it is a stick on the steering column or it's support.
    On a moto, it is a rotating cylinder on the handlebars.
    On a boat, it is a stick on the dash or seat deck.
    On an airplane, it is a stick on the seat deck.
    On a tank, it is originally 2 sticks on the control deck.
    On an ebike, it is on the pedals.

    I'm the one confused?
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    Let's talk throttles:
    On a car or truck, it is run by your right foot. (in the new world)
    On a tractor, it is a stick on the steering column or it's support.
    On a moto, it is a rotating cylinder on the handlebars.
    On a boat, it is a stick on the dash or seat deck.
    On an airplane, it is a stick on the seat deck.
    On a tank, it is originally 2 sticks on the control deck.
    On an ebike, it is on the pedals.

    I'm the one confused?
    Yes. Yes you are!
    None of the above (except the e-bike) require increased power input by the operator to increase power contribution (speed). A motorcycle's speed is not dependent on rider effort. Once its' throttle is open, no amount of increased operator exertion will make any difference.

    You can save yourself a lot of effort while operating the machines on your list (except the e-bike) by understanding this concept. You'll want to thank me as your level of exhaustion will be greatly decreased while using these machines!

    On a more serious note: my wife's e-bike has a power contribution indicator. It's top level of contribution is 250 watts. Coincidentally, I have been riding my bike with a power meter for about 12 years. When I ride her bike, I perceive that, by my contributing 250 watts, I can get the bike to contribute its' max of 250 watts when I'm in it's highest mode (there is no rider power meter on her bike). That will take me to 22mph on a 4% grade and 29mph on the flat (it stops contributing progressively at 28mph).

    In most of Europe I believe it is now illegal to produce/sell e-bikes capable of providing progressive power increases beyond 25kph. There is a movement in the US to impose a 20mph limit.
    Last edited by SwiftSolo; 01-03-2019 at 07:39 AM.

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    It's still a throttle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Sounds luxurious! The thrill of pure aerobic speed! The ultimate endurance machine. So which dies first, the battery or the rider? The rider takes in some carbs, but the battery doesn't charge back up along with the rider.

    How about a generator hooked into the hub that charges up the battery while riding? The laws of physics apparently forbid full restoration of energy lost by heat, but theoretically the battery might only have to be charged up once a week, or every couple of hundred miles. The harder the rider pedals, does that mean the assist also works harder, or does it contribute a smaller share of the energy?

    I appreciate that rider can soft pedal or coast on the freewheel, as the motor powers the crank, not the wheel. That's "natural" to the physical exercise, so would be fun to play with, as you say.

    This new tech. is truly amazing. More bikes out there is good. So what if half are cheating? All it takes for general fitness is moving the pedals around the crank. Busting a$$ is icing on the cake.

    Like passing climbers at 16 mph, 110 rpm in 42-23, for 8-12 seconds. That's all it takes on some of the short bumps on the MUT. Sustained climbing would be awesome with electric assist!
    Apparently there are E-tandems out there that use regenerative braking to fulfill their considerable downhill braking needs while crawling a little faster uphill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bremerradkurier View Post
    Apparently there are E-tandems out there that use regenerative braking to fulfill their considerable downhill braking needs while crawling a little faster uphill.
    Most tandem riders mostly avoid major climbs/hills where possible. and the more it regenerates, the slower you go, no fun in that!
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    It's still a throttle
    You are correct. As long as you're a "device" it is a "throttle".

    Consider looking into the laws regarding these bikes. I think you'll find that few people are considered "devices" and that pedals on bikes don't meet the legal definition.

    I'm no longer under any illusion that either Websters' definitions, legal definitions, or me are apt to change your delusion.

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