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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by den bakker View Post
    I cycle and drive regularly on three continents. Americans often are surprised when I say the US is by far where I feel the least safe. Thanks for explaining this so concise.

    The person admitted earlier to be blinded by the sun. continues above the speed limit and then starts to fiddle around with stuff, in this case the cell phone.
    And yet, that is explained by " we'd all like to believe we've had razor sharp concentration all the time".
    I used to ride my road bike on roads... long rides on nice hilly country roads in the burbs west and northwest of Philly.

    That was back before people in those areas started driving stupidly enormous SUVs while holding iphones in one hand while sorta driving with the other hand.

    Now, I just ride my road bike on the Schuylkill River Trail, which is great.

    The 1.5 miles I ride on the road to get there? I won't ride if there are any vehicles behind me. I pull over and wait until I have the road.

    As the drivers go by, I see most of them are doing something with a smartphone or infotainment screen, and driving with at most one eye on the road and one hand on the wheel.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    Not only accepting rampant distracted driving... but continuously providing drivers with even more distractions in increasingly large, increasingly more complex touchscreens that demand several touches for tasks that previously took a simple no-look muscle-memory twist of a knob, a shift of a slider or a simple switch.
    Right on.

    Look at it this way. If I'm riding on my bike in traffic it would be nice to be re-assured when I cut out in front of the car behind, it will automatically adjust its speed to let me in or pass at a safe distance. So I think cyclists can look forward to safer times. Self driving cars would have a calming effect in traffic, as opposed to the aggressive driving characteristic in urban areas since the invention of the motor vehicle. Go out on the interstates and you're in a race. Everyone is going too fast, too close together, and jockeying for position. Much safer to go with the flow.

    Don't get this old fart started on knobs and switches vs. touch screens with pictures of knobs and switches. Nothing more sensuous than hot vacuum tubes, toggle switches, fluted volume volume control knobs, and a counterweighted vernier fluted tuning knob with a little post you grab and spin, and a red marker would fly down the frequency scale. The hard wired discrete components looked like an industrial city. The power amplifier tubes in the ham radio transmitter glowed in time with the Morse code key, but the thing was analog. Tuning across the frequencies those vacuum tubes gave all the sweet overtones of analog that have been lost in these various MPEG schemes. You could change pitch of the Morse code signals by tuning off the frequency. In a "pile up" of many stations trying to contact a "CQ," if you tuned off slightly more than the others, your signal would be a higher pitch than all the others and the distant station would answer you. Working that rig was a physical activity. I look in pity at these shoppers sitting down in the middle of the mall playing with these little phones.

    Drove a 2019 loaner a while back from the Mercedes dealer fixing up my 2001 E320. The controls in this "C" class loaner were like a computer game. The shifter was buried on the steering column. It drove competently but always very tame. I couldn't feel where the 4 wheels were.

    The old 2001 E320 cruises comfortably, 2800 rpm at 80 mph like on rails. It has all driver wants to know punched up on the steering wheel: speed, distance, average speed, miles from last start, gallons in tank and miles remaining, and it'll tell ya if the oil is ok, and how many miles until the next oil change. No dirty fingers driving this car. Driver can adjust radio volume on the steering wheel, so he doesn't have to reach over to the radio knob on the dashboard, which is really a stepping resistor[s] with click detentes. The windows, seats, A/C and radio, are all still sliding or clicking buttons and knobs. That's physical, consistent with laying foot on accelerator and hands on the steering wheel, eyes constantly adjusting speed and distance. Driver's active working with the car. Control is what it's all about. Why turn it all over to a robot?
    Last edited by Fredrico; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:58 PM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by den bakker View Post
    I cycle and drive regularly on three continents. Americans often are surprised when I say the US is by far where I feel the least safe. Thanks for explaining this so concise.

    The person admitted earlier to be blinded by the sun. continues above the speed limit and then starts to fiddle around with stuff, in this case the cell phone.
    And yet, that is explained by " we'd all like to believe we've had razor sharp concentration all the time".
    You are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying the lady wasn't negligent, or that the level of distraction is excusable. There's a difference between explainable (which I did) and excusable (which I did not). All I'm disputing is that contributing to the prison industrial complex and putting her in a cage is the correct response.

    I've ridden in other countries, and agree that the U.S. is probably one of the least safe. However, I think the main reason is road design. Places like Belgium and the Netherlands tend to have excellent bicycle paths or on-road bicycle marking anywhere you go. The best bike route is always well-signed. The U.S. has some areas with acceptable biking infrastructure (usually hip urban centers), but is terrible in the suburbs and exurbs. The ubiquitous multi-lane streets with 45mph speed limits and no shoulder or sidewalk in the exurbs make for extremely hazardous cycling.
    Last edited by nealric; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:39 PM.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by nealric View Post
    You are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying the lady wasn't negligent, or that the level of distraction is excusable. There's a difference between explainable (which I did) and excusable (which I did not). All I'm disputing is that contributing to the prison industrial complex and putting her in a cage is the correct response.

    I've ridden in other countries, and agree that the U.S. is probably one of the least safe. However, I think the main reason is road design. Places like Belgium and the Netherlands tend to have excellent bicycle paths or on-road bicycle marking anywhere you go. The best bike route is always well-signed. The U.S. has some areas with acceptable biking infrastructure (usually hip urban centers), but is terrible in the suburbs and exurbs. The ubiquitous multi-lane streets with 45mph speed limits and no shoulder or sidewalk in the exurbs make for extremely hazardous cycling.
    Sorry I mistook "We like to think we are all perfect drivers with eyes always on the road and hands at 9 and 3, but the truth is even the best of us has looked down to change the radio or glance at our phones at least sometime in our driving careers. " to be the equivalent of "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone". Really not sure how else to interpret it though.
    And I am not sure why prison is considered the only option. how about... shocking I know.... taking away driving privileges from a person that clearly should not have them? No prison time, no throwing away a person in jail for live as another poster pulled out of nowhere. just removing the privilege the person is clearly not able to administer.
    Having had 10k miles per year in the US and 10k miles per year in the netherlands; road design certainly helps but in the end of the day it is up to the people in traffic. Plenty of outside city places in the netherlands don't have bike lanes, the roads for both directions are more narrow than a US highway lane but yet people can seem to get along.
    Blows your hair back.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by nealric View Post
    You are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying the lady wasn't negligent, or that the level of distraction is excusable. There's a difference between explainable (which I did) and excusable (which I did not). All I'm disputing is that contributing to the prison industrial complex and putting her in a cage is the correct response.

    I've ridden in other countries, and agree that the U.S. is probably one of the least safe. However, I think the main reason is road design. Places like Belgium and the Netherlands tend to have excellent bicycle paths or on-road bicycle marking anywhere you go. The best bike route is always well-signed. The U.S. has some areas with acceptable biking infrastructure (usually hip urban centers), but is terrible in the suburbs and exurbs. The ubiquitous multi-lane streets with 45mph speed limits and no shoulder or sidewalk in the exurbs make for extremely hazardous cycling.
    Huh... When I met Jens Voigt he was asked about where he prefers cycling and training the most. He answered in very certain terms the USA. Wider roads, better sight lines less vine and growth blocking vision... he gave a litany of reasons. He’s ridden all over the world and not only on closed roads. Thread drift acknowledged... Just seemed relevant.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  6. #56
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    Things start to get silly when massive diverse areas get talked about as if they are a monolith.

    I have not cycled 'all over the world' but have enough in US, Canada, Germany, Spain, Austria, Denmark and France to know that blanket statements don't apply to entire continents.

    But to contradict what I just said somewhat, I will say anecdotally the US seems to have the highest percentage of drivers that view cyclist as a 'problem' and treat them accordingly or just have their heads up their arse in general.
    How that translates to relative safety considering everything like roads and so on as well as drivers I do not know, but I'm pretty confident the US would have the worse statistics regarding lack of safety due to just plain disrespect or stupidity.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    Maybe this is more for PO, but I am not comfortable with a squad of police whose sole mission is to make money for the city/state. Seems ripe for abuse. Here in NJ we had red light cameras locally for a while. The verdict: they increased accidents. That is from folks slamming on the brakes or speeding up to avoid a ticker at red lights. As for cell phone I think technology could help here. Phoned that deactivate certain functions when driving. Apps that shut down the phone when driving etc. I see smartphones while driving as the biggest threat to cyclists. Far worse than drunk driving mainly because the percentage of folks using their phones is so high
    I'd love phones being shut off while driving.

    How about police just enforcing obvious laws? Headlights on while raining/wipers on? Using turn signals? NOT having a license plate holder that blacks out your plate. Not having fully blacked out window tint. I don't see these are easy cases for abuse by the police.

    And, I see enforcing some basic laws with a dedicated group to have some influence on behavior. If people know and see people being ticketed and fined, they might think twice.

    But, who knows. The majority of humans at this point seem happy to gorge on fast food and play with their phones, not much else.

  8. #58
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    I think they should build all vehicles with micro wire shields, therefore eliminating all possiblity of electromagnetic waves entering the cabin. But the big truck pushies will start whining.
    An of course making it illegal to run with an external antenna.
    BANNED

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by nayr497 View Post
    I'd love phones being shut off while driving.

    How about police just enforcing obvious laws? Headlights on while raining/wipers on? Using turn signals? NOT having a license plate holder that blacks out your plate. Not having fully blacked out window tint. I don't see these are easy cases for abuse by the police.

    And, I see enforcing some basic laws with a dedicated group to have some influence on behavior. If people know and see people being ticketed and fined, they might think twice.

    But, who knows. The majority of humans at this point seem happy to gorge on fast food and play with their phones, not much else.
    I was curious how many tickets are issued for texting while driving. I was assuming it was a very low number. I was surprised that New Jersey gave out 13,146 tickets for texting while driving in 2018. Hard to tell what the level of deterrence is but anecdotally I would is really low based on how many people I see on their phones while driving

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    I was curious how many tickets are issued for texting while driving. I was assuming it was a very low number. I was surprised that New Jersey gave out 13,146 tickets for texting while driving in 2018. Hard to tell what the level of deterrence is but anecdotally I would is really low based on how many people I see on their phones while driving
    I don't think the fines deter enough.

    First offense: $200-400
    Second offense: $400-600
    Third and subsequent offenses: $600-800, 3 points, 90-day suspension.

    If you're poor or lower middle class, maybe those fines will deter you. Otherwise, I doubt they do much. To use fines as a deterrent for anyone of any economic stature, income-based fines make more sense. For a first offense I'd recommend 2% of your gross annual income where failure to provide proof of income sans a qualifying exception would result in contempt of court.
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  11. #61
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    Income wouldn't work too well, you would have people like the POS, who has no income, unless your talking to someone's daughter.
    % of assets, a lot bigger deal.
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by SauronHimself View Post
    I don't think the fines deter enough.

    First offense: $200-400
    Second offense: $400-600
    Third and subsequent offenses: $600-800, 3 points, 90-day suspension.

    If you're poor or lower middle class, maybe those fines will deter you. Otherwise, I doubt they do much. To use fines as a deterrent for anyone of any economic stature, income-based fines make more sense. For a first offense I'd recommend 2% of your gross annual income where failure to provide proof of income sans a qualifying exception would result in contempt of court.
    Possible idea. Recently in NJ they changed the penalties for DUI. Instead of taking away your license, they require you to get a alcohol test ignition lock on the first offense. Maybe a similar tact would work. Instead of just a fine you have to install a cell phone jammer or some other technology to prevent phone use. This has the possible benefit of forcing the offender to learn drive without a phone glued to their hand

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    Possible idea. Recently in NJ they changed the penalties for DUI. Instead of taking away your license, they require you to get a alcohol test ignition lock on the first offense. Maybe a similar tact would work. Instead of just a fine you have to install a cell phone jammer or some other technology to prevent phone use. This has the possible benefit of forcing the offender to learn drive without a phone glued to their hand
    I'm in favor of this too but many will complain saying, 'What if they're lost and need the GPS/maps' or 'What if they're just a passenger wanting to use the phone?' or 'What if they're being kidnapped and are locked in the trunk trying to call 911?'...Almost endless scenarios.
    Sadly, things will continue as they are until it touches drivers/offenders in the wallet.
    In reference to the Assault on Mt Mitchell...
    Quote Originally Posted by merckx56
    The easier solution is to find a biker bar in Spartanburg the night before, go in and pick a fight. The ass-whipping you'll get will be far less painful than the one Mitchell will give you the next day!

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by upstateSC-rider View Post
    I'm in favor of this too but many will complain saying, 'What if they're lost and need the GPS/maps' or 'What if they're just a passenger wanting to use the phone?' or 'What if they're being kidnapped and are locked in the trunk trying to call 911?'...Almost endless scenarios.
    Sadly, things will continue as they are until it touches drivers/offenders in the wallet.
    if you need to check the map you should pull over anyway. As for the other cases; apps already have now you have to acknowledge you are not the driver. Have the feature as a default and if people lie... well you can design the legal consequences accordingly.
    Blows your hair back.

  15. #65
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    WHAT THE F?????!!!! That is INEXCUSABLE!!!! And the terminal cancer patient in Alabama gets 9 months in prison for stealing some groceries.

    Well publicized and serious prison time would ABSOLUTELY act as a deterrent to other homicidally negligent drivers.
    Well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion man. - The Dude

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