Mandatory Helmets Make Cycling Less Safe - Page 2
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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    So, I'm assuming you'd be ok with outlawing cars on roads too? It would be a lot safer and better for everyone's health to walk.
    Sorry. Non sequetorial logical failure. The comparison is the net benefits with or without mandatory helmet laws. Do you have some net benefit data that would support the banning of cars, or are you just trolling?

  2. #27
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    Trolling mostly, but you see no benefit in health if everyone had to ... walk?
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Irons View Post
    Sorry. Non sequetorial logical failure. The comparison is the net benefits with or without mandatory helmet laws. Do you have some net benefit data that would support the banning of cars, or are you just trolling?
    If you want to know the yearly cost of having automobiles on the road it is easily researched - aside from the yearly death rate of 40,000 people, the pollution kills about 200,000 people per year in the USA alone.

    So it is your call whether .07% of the population lost each and every year to cars or the industries required to support them is significant enough to label autos a net benefit to society. I will say that they are a hell of a lot better than horses.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    Trolling mostly, but you see no benefit in health if everyone had to ... walk?
    Yep. Trolling mostly. We would be healthier if more people walked and biked. But that considers only health and not society as a whole. It's all about where you draw the boundaries. Millions of tons of horse manure, anyone?

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    solution is education. Tell the dumb people that
    1. cycling is good for their health and environment
    2. and cycling is safer with a helmet (because that's proven with motorcyclists)

    Solution is not to just give in to people's initial dumbness.
    A motorcycle helmet is different than a bicycle helmet. It has a hard shell. Furthermore, the majority of motorcycle accidents are like bicycle accidents - misjudgment and slide-outs. Motorcyclists general wear leathers and the hard shell helmet which prevents most injuries in these sorts of accidents. In a collision NOTHING will save a motorcyclist or bicyclist except pure chance.

  6. #31
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    As an employee in the bicycle industry, I am concerned with the fallo0ut of a national helmet law. When Australia enacted one, adult ridership plummeted 50%. Our industry may not survive such a hit - certainly a lot of businesses will fold.

    There is also the question of where does the nanny state stop? Head injuries are far more common in car occupants than cyclists - do we require all automobile users (and passengers) to wear helmets as well?
    Life is short... enjoy the ride.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    As an employee in the bicycle industry, I am concerned with the fallo0ut of a national helmet law. When Australia enacted one, adult ridership plummeted 50%. Our industry may not survive such a hit - certainly a lot of businesses will fold.

    There is also the question of where does the nanny state stop? Head injuries are far more common in car occupants than cyclists - do we require all automobile users (and passengers) to wear helmets as well?
    I am in total agreement with you. But you can expect this to occur with the continuing and false stories about "My helmet saved my life". As my study showed - helmet have no effect on fatalities or severe injuries. They probably (PROBABLY) have an effect on minor injuries but that should be the choice of the individual.

    Racers wear helmets because they have helmet sponsors. And the UCI receives funding from them as well. This is why European helmets are so much more expensive than Bell helmets which use the same technology.

  8. #33
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    https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Doc...2-abstract.pdf

    "
    Head injury is the leading cause of bicycle-related deaths, and head injuries are prevalent in bicycle crashes with motor vehicles. A bicycle helmet is an effective way to mitigate head injury when a bicycle crash occurs. However, the underutilization of helmets continues to contribute to the incidence of deaths and serious injuries among crash-involved bicyclists. A comprehensive national strategy to increase helmet use among riders of all ages is needed. The strategy should focus on evidence-based approaches for state and local governments to increase helmet use among all bicyclists, such as a helmet requirement for bicyclists of all ages; helmet distribution programs; and effective educational campaigns."
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kunich View Post
    These helmet threads show up all the time. And they all seem to be based in personal experience rather than fact. I was the safety director of the American Federation of Motorcyclists for a couple of years and went to Bell and talked to them and when I was racing motorcycles crashing was part of the sport.

    When I changed over to bicycles I actually used my knowledge and ability to research and here is what I discovered: Trends in US Cyclist Deaths - research, statistics, data

    Now here is an update to this: Trek through their subsidiary Bontrager has invented a new cushioning material. Styrofoam which is what is used in all of the helmets up to this point is too hard.

    Or perhaps I should start a bit earlier - helmet are so hard that they offer NO or so little as to be almost entirely ineffective in case of vehicular accidents. But they are very effective in the overwhelmingly common accidents - fall-offs. So I have always recommended helmets not to save any lives (though I imagine they could protect you if you fell and hit your head on a curb - hardly a common sort of accident since you would normally using your body parts to cushion any falls) but to save a lot of painful minor injuries.

    Bontrager actually thought about the problems of helmets and what they did was to use a 3D printer to make a cushioning material that collapses at a rate that prevents concussions - the most dangerous injury from these fall-offs. The initial claims I saw said that they were 28 times more effective than Styrofoam at preventing concussion but later it appears that they are now claiming 48 times more effectiveness.

    Now I happened to have had a first generation carbon fiber fork fall apart on me dropping me on my head while I was leaning over to see what was "ticking". I was traveling at less than 5 mph and since I was leaning over my head only fell about 2 feet.

    This should have been the perfect example of proving the efficacy of the old Styrofoam lids but in fact it had the effect I was talking about - since the helmets are designed to prevent skull fracture it had no effect on the concussion and concurrent brain damage. Now I will spend the rest of my life taking medications that have some disconcerting side effects in order to prevent seizures that leave no memory of their occurring.

    That Bontrager has actually put real engineering into helmet improvement rather than style as other makers have been concerned about is a bright light that hopefully will save many potential concussion victims in the future and I have one myself and advise others that if you wear a helmet to get a Bontrager.

    I have even put it to a test. Riding down a road that had overhanging tree leaves I was ducking beneath them and suddenly hit a hidden branch so hard that it stopped me. I wasn't even dizzy from the blow though it hurt like hell. So needless to say I recommend these helmets.
    Thatís not an article. Thatís just you writing crap. By your standards, it is absolutely as safe to jump out of an airplane with an empty backpack as it is to jump out with a parachute. Making causal statements from correlations leads to these kinds of BS arguments. Actual articles, ones that deserve to be read, are peer reviewed to avoid this kind of complete trash from being considered as legitimate. Urban dwellers that live closer to green spaces have fewer health problems. Yep. Must be the proximity of green spaces? It also costs way more to live on a park boundary or near a wooded area in a city. So, more affluent people have fewer health problems. They also are likely to have better health insurance, etc, etc. You should really take some time to understand this before you mis-use data.
    Last edited by PBL450; 1 Week Ago at 04:35 PM.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Thatís not an article. Thatís just you writing crap. By your standards, it is absolutely as safe to jump out of an airplane with an empty backpack as it is to jump out with a parachute. Making causal statements from correlations leads to these kinds of BS arguments. Actual articles, ones that deserve to be read, are peer reviewed to avoid this kind of complete trash from being considered as legitimate. Urban dwellers that live closer to green spaces have fewer health problems. Yep. Must be the proximity of green spaces? It also costs way more to live on a park boundary or near a wooded area in a city. So, more affluent people have fewer health problems. They also are likely to have better health insurance, etc, etc. You should really take some time to understand this before you mis-use data.
    Not one person has told you to believe in facts and figures. You do not need to believe statistics. You are perfectly capable of doing anything you damn well please and why should I care what you do?

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kunich View Post
    Not one person has told you to believe in facts and figures. You do not need to believe statistics. You are perfectly capable of doing anything you damn well please and why should I care what you do?
    Dude, that reply is bat sh!t crazy...


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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    Wow, the V1 Pro, that brings up memories! That was my first helmet as well. To use the "gossamer" in the same sentence is a real stretch. I remember my neck being sore from the the enormous weight of it. I believe mine was made out of spent plutonium and granite. It had this ridiculous little vent in the front that you could open and close to let in an undetectable amount of air. Helmets have certainly come a long way from there
    Thanks for the reminder! Yep, that helmet was heavy. It held up for over 10 years, though, and still worked after I cracked the foam. It was also round in back, satisfying current preferences addressing aerodynamics. Always suspected the wing shaped helmets would eventually give way to rounder ones, like the good old V-1 Pro. May it RIP.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kunich View Post
    Not one person has told you to believe in facts and figures. You do not need to believe statistics. You are perfectly capable of doing anything you damn well please and why should I care what you do?

    Wait, so you're not flouncing off after all? Was this post of yours just "exaggeration for effect?":

    Originally Posted by Tom Kunich
    Then if he the moderator of the politics only and it is not against the rules for him to make political speech this is not the site for me. Obviously you will be happy with my removal.


    https://forums.roadbikereview.com/bi...ml#post5363555
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Dude, that reply is bat sh!t crazy...


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    I think this part of Tom Kunich's post explains a lot:

    "Now I happened to have had a first generation carbon fiber fork fall apart on me dropping me on my head while I was leaning over to see what was "ticking". I was traveling at less than 5 mph and since I was leaning over my head only fell about 2 feet.

    This should have been the perfect example of proving the efficacy of the old Styrofoam lids but in fact it had the effect I was talking about - since the helmets are designed to prevent skull fracture it had no effect on the concussion and concurrent brain damage. Now I will spend the rest of my life taking medications that have some disconcerting side effects in order to prevent seizures that leave no memory of their occurring."

    I only now read this post of his, and I hereby retract all my posts re Tom Kunich, as I did not realize that he suffers from brain damage and memory losses that leave him with a diminished cognitive capacity.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    I think this part of Tom Kunich's post explains a lot:

    "Now I happened to have had a first generation carbon fiber fork fall apart on me dropping me on my head while I was leaning over to see what was "ticking". I was traveling at less than 5 mph and since I was leaning over my head only fell about 2 feet.

    This should have been the perfect example of proving the efficacy of the old Styrofoam lids but in fact it had the effect I was talking about - since the helmets are designed to prevent skull fracture it had no effect on the concussion and concurrent brain damage. Now I will spend the rest of my life taking medications that have some disconcerting side effects in order to prevent seizures that leave no memory of their occurring."

    I only now read this post of his, and I hereby retract all my posts re Tom Kunich, as I did not realize that he suffers from brain damage and memory losses that leave him with a diminished cognitive capacity.
    Well, OK then. Iíve reconsidered my take on his article now... I mean it has American flags on the top so it must be right and important.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Dude, that reply is bat sh!t crazy...


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    What is your ability to read a chart? The fact that death rate ratios of pedestrians and bicyclists remained the same before and after helmets doesn't seem to ring a bell with you. Instead that is "bat **** crazy". I don't know what it is with you and your kind but to actually refute education and go with rumors you've heard is the sort of thing that doesn't bode well for your future.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kunich View Post
    I don't know what it is with you and your kind but to actually refute education and go with rumors you've heard is the sort of thing that doesn't bode well for your future.
    lmao. You mean like when YOU said you heard that pro mechanics change tubular tires in the back of moving cars and tried to pass if off as reality? That sort of thing?
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    lmao. You mean like when YOU said you heard that pro mechanics change tubular tires in the back of moving cars and tried to pass if off as reality? That sort of thing?
    Or an entire peloton flatting maybe? The list of bizarre and baseless claims is so long I canít even start...


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