Michelin annouces tubeless road tires

View Poll Results: Would you ride one of these first generation tubeless clicher tires?

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  • Heck yeah- I got health insurance!

    5 23.81%
  • Maybe, if I need to the keep my team replica bike "exact".

    1 4.76%
  • Nah, I can just ride a tubular tire.

    5 23.81%
  • Badges?, we don't need no stinkin' badges!

    11 52.38%
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  1. #1
    flinty-eyed moderator
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    Michelin announces tubeless road tires

    Road clincher tubeless. Umm gulp. Given the teething pain of Mtn tubeless systems (I know, I rode them) I dont think I want to be the racer having to race on these things.

    Details and analysis:

    http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/...es/5531.0.html
    Last edited by Coolhand; 02-06-2004 at 01:00 PM. Reason: spelling- sigh. . .
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand
    Road clincher tubeless. Umm gulp. Given the teething pain of Mtn tubeless systems (I know, I rode them) I dont think I want to be the racer having to race on these things.

    Details and analysis:

    http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/...es/5531.0.html
    I like new technology, I just don't like being a guinea pig. So I'll watch this one with interest. Also, did Mavic ever make these rims available separately, or are you stuck with overpriced prebuilt wheels?

    Hey, wasn't Shylock running the Notubes thing on his road bike?

  3. #3

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    Great a new "industry standard" to keep up with. Thanks Michelin

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by RemingtonShowdown
    Great a new "industry standard" to keep up with. Thanks Michelin
    So true, and how much will it cost.
    Thanks but no thanks, I'd rather just buy a new tube every time I puncture, or patch it up if it isn't bad.

    Kiwi Rider

  5. #5
    flinty-eyed moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Rider
    So true, and how much will it cost.
    Thanks but no thanks, I'd rather just buy a new tube every time I puncture, or patch it up if it isn't bad.

    Kiwi Rider
    I havn't really had the urge to run super lower air pressures either- the one big plus to UST. More puncture resistance- I will believe it when I see it. Besides, there are plenty puncture resistant tires on the market- like the inexpensive Continental Ultra Gator Skins I have on the cross bike right now.

    Looks like a poor solution to a problem nobody had.
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  6. #6
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    Limited appeal, I think

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand
    I havn't really had the urge to run super lower air pressures either- the one big plus to UST. More puncture resistance- I will believe it when I see it. Besides, there are plenty puncture resistant tires on the market- like the inexpensive Continental Ultra Gator Skins I have on the cross bike right now.

    Looks like a poor solution to a problem nobody had.

    From the article I read, it sounded like they were developed not for everyday road riding, but for cobbles, and other situations (potholes in DC in the winter come to mind) were there is a greater than average chance of pinch flats. I wouldn't expect them to be used in all that many races; Paris-Roubaix is the only one I can think of right now (it was the only one mentioned in the article at cyclingnews.com). Probably not practical for the vast majority of us, though.

    --Kevin

  7. #7

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    I'm curious to the ride quality of these new tires. In MTB UST or latex definitely rides smoother compared to inner tubes.

  8. #8
    flinty-eyed moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by divve
    I'm curious to the ride quality of these new tires. In MTB UST or latex definitely rides smoother compared to inner tubes.
    True, but you are running lower pressures which I would think leads to the nicer ride. With UST or the later No_tubes systems they were either heavier or a much greater hassle then tubes. My new bike didn't have UST (my older one did) and I can't say I miss it.

    I do wonder if they will ride smooth, like tubies, without the glue up issues. However, given the critical nature of leakage with road tires, to seal them properly may make them little piggies. Also I wonder if you will need "special" rims to hold the tire on so you don't end up doing your very own Beloki crash re-enactment. Ouch.

    _________

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin
    From the article I read, it sounded like they were developed not for everyday road riding, but for cobbles, and other situations (potholes in DC in the winter come to mind) were there is a greater than average chance of pinch flats. I wouldn't expect them to be used in all that many races; Paris-Roubaix is the only one I can think of right now (it was the only one mentioned in the article at cyclingnews.com). Probably not practical for the vast majority of us, though.

    --Kevin
    Hmm, not too many of us are riding the cobbles and such. Those racers who do might not what to be test pilots of a new technology in the biggest classic of the year- they probably won't have a choice though.

    I don't know, maybe this is a good idea- but given UST and other tubeless systems spotty records (IMHO) on the mountain side, and the current availability of Tubs on the road side I am a bit skeptical at this point. I wonder if this is more of an attempt by Mavic and Michilin to save their market share than actually solve a current issue for riders.

  9. #9
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    In my opinion, trash

    One of the latest pieces of trash i've seen. In my opinion, useless. This means that if u flat on the road instead of replacing the tube, you have to carry a spare TYRE (and presumably very hard to fold since the beads must be somewhat hard for it to seal).
    I've seen one of my riding buddies change an inner tube in 3 minutes (i kid you not). I think, as someone said before, that this is a VERY poor solution for a problem that no one had.

  10. #10
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    UST on MTBs works just fine now...

    ...and I don't dispute any of the problems they had over the years. IMHO, many of the problems were aggravated by people trying to use tires and rims not designed to be tubeless because they didn't want to spend the money for proper parts.

    However, at this point if you buy any UST Standard rim, and use any UST Standard tire from any manufacturers they work fine and do deliver on puncture resistance, compliance, grip, and the ability to run them at low pressure.

    On the road side, when they work, the only advantage I can see would really be compliance, grip, and potentially puncture resistance. You could put a teaspoon of Stan's in your tires and, literally, never have a puncture again (big punctures and rips are a different story). Weight would probably be a push, as heavier tires would make up the difference of running no tubes. One other possible advantage is that, at least on the MTB side, many claim that tubeless tires are faster pedaling given the same weight because there is no friction between a tube and the tire (I didn't notice this, but lot's of people claim it's true).

    Since going tubeless on my MTB in November, I have never had a flat. Never. Not once. Ever. If I do, I'll just throw in a tube and fix the tire when I get home. Tubeless tires make tires a part of your bike you never have to think about-- kind of like a Chris King headset.

    All of that said, I'll wait a couple of years for them to get it right, just like on my MTB. Bike parts are just life software, never go with the first release.

    Best,

    Michael

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand
    True, but you are running lower pressures which I would think leads to the nicer ride. With UST or the later No_tubes systems they were either heavier or a much greater hassle then tubes. My new bike didn't have UST (my older one did) and I can't say I miss it.

    I do wonder if they will ride smooth, like tubies, without the glue up issues. However, given the critical nature of leakage with road tires, to seal them properly may make them little piggies. Also I wonder if you will need "special" rims to hold the tire on so you don't end up doing your very own Beloki crash re-enactment. Ouch.

    _________



    Hmm, not too many of us are riding the cobbles and such. Those racers who do might not what to be test pilots of a new technology in the biggest classic of the year- they probably won't have a choice though.

    I don't know, maybe this is a good idea- but given UST and other tubeless systems spotty records (IMHO) on the mountain side, and the current availability of Tubs on the road side I am a bit skeptical at this point. I wonder if this is more of an attempt by Mavic and Michilin to save their market share than actually solve a current issue for riders.
    Last edited by msylvan; 02-09-2004 at 12:58 PM. Reason: add info...

  11. #11

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    I can see the point on an MTB but........

    Yeah I can see totally the advantages of using tubless offroad but on the road?
    OK last year I did just over 10,000 road miles (on 6 different tyres) and had a total of 2 punctures on Mich Pro Race 23mm with latex tubes (Maybe I should not have said that - now I'll bet I get a puncture tomorrow!). Those miles were mostly on nasty gritty, uneven and generally not to good rural roads. In the winter the back roads get even worse and tend to be covered in a mixture of mud, grit and cow sh**. So year round my tyres have quiet a lot to cope with. Would tubless road tyres help me? No not in my opinion. They gotta weigh more and as someone else said if you puncture one you gotta carry a bulky + heavy spare.
    Maybe someone should tell Michelin that the perfect tubless tyre already exists there called Tubulars!. The only slight drawback is they need glueing on - but I never really found it a problem. So for those races on the "Pave" why don't Michelin just get Vittoria to rebadge some cx's as Michelin?

    Back in the 1980's there was a tubless clincher road tyre made. I think it was marketed under the Saba brand in the UK but they never really took off though. Anyone else remember them or try them?

    Don't get me wrong I love the latest equipment or technology but sometimes things just don't need fixing. Maybe tubless road tyres will end up just like L-shaped cranks and Biopace chainrings?.

    Of course I could be proved completely wrong and the tubless road technology will be fantastic. Heck I might even be riding on them this time next year? We wil have to wait and see.............
    "Better to light a few candles than complain about the dark"

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom
    One of the latest pieces of trash i've seen. In my opinion, useless. This means that if u flat on the road instead of replacing the tube, you have to carry a spare TYRE (and presumably very hard to fold since the beads must be somewhat hard for it to seal).
    I've seen one of my riding buddies change an inner tube in 3 minutes (i kid you not). I think, as someone said before, that this is a VERY poor solution for a problem that no one had.
    Tubeless technology is based on using just the outer tire, i.e., when you puncture you simply stick in a standard inner tube and continue your ride. Repair is simple as well, apply a standard patch with a suitable glue inside the tubeless tire.

  13. #13
    flinty-eyed moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by msylvan
    ...and I don't dispute any of the problems they had over the years. IMHO, many of the problems were aggravated by people trying to use tires and rims not designed to be tubeless because they didn't want to spend the money for proper parts.

    However, at this point if you buy any UST Standard rim, and use any UST Standard tire from any manufacturers they work fine and do deliver on puncture resistance, compliance, grip, and the ability to run them at low pressure.
    Micheal,

    I rode a tubeless wheelset for two years. It was a Mavic 3.1 UST Disc rim mated to a King Iso hub wheelset. Additionally several friends ride UST, and I work at a shop part-time. So, I have lots of experience with UST. I think you are omitting some rather large issues still remaining.

    1. Installation is a nightmare on many UST Tires. Certain brands can be a disaster to mount even with soapy water and steel DH levers. On the trail, getting a UST bead on and off (to insert a tire) is not really feasible for most riders.

    2. Weight problems. While UST tire manufacturers made outrageous weight claims, the digital scale in the shop doesn't lie. UST tires are much heavier then regular tires and tubes. That additional weight is all rotating weight too. Often I saw UST tires weighing 100+ grams more then claimed.

    3. Leakage problems. Unless you add additional goop (which adds even more weight, mess, hassle, and difficulty of swapping tires) many UST tires leak air disturbingly fast- especially if they are "light" UST tires.

    4. Fun with Stan's goop and the PITA of mounting a tire with it. Also the large group of people who had quite bad experiences with it (burping sidewalls, failed mounts, ect). Honestly it is a expert wrench only product, and not for people without patience and spare time. While a good skilled mechanic can make it work nicely, overall it is not ready for the general population's use.

    5. UST tires are more expensive on average.

    However, for people who pinch flat alot, or ride nasty conditions calling for low pressures- or for people riding rougher courses on AL framed race bikes, UST is certainly worth considering.

    But, since my new ride came without UST tires- I have been surprised to find that I haven't had any additional pinch flats or grip issues with the regular tires over the UST ones.

    Coolhand
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  14. #14

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    I exclusively use Hutchinson UST tires. Absolutely no problem inflating them (I use a standard floor pump. no soap or whatever is required) and lifting a bead off when deflated is effortless just using my thumb.

    For my latex system I use Hutchinson Python Air Light and the Eclipse system. Again no problem mounting and inflating. The latex is inserted through a valve with removable core. No mess whatsoever.

    The latter in combination with CrossMax SL is very light (tire 485 + 9g strip + 80g latex mix).

  15. #15
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    I see your very good points, but submit that...

    ...given the proper parts some of your points are not always the case. I agree with points one and five. I mostly agree with points two and four (though four isn't really that big a deal on an MTB, I can see how it would be seriously annoying on a road bike). I just plain disagree with point number three relative to MTBs, but on a roadbike with higher pressure it could be a serious concern.

    I mounted my tubeless Panaracer Fire XC Pros to my Mavic D3.1 tubeless rims, spooned an ounce of Stans goop into each, and inflated them with a floor pump. If you knew me, you'd know that my mechanical skills are less than impressive overall, yet I was able to do this. Truly, if I could do this, then just about anybody could.

    I guess my point is that choosing good, modern parts mitigates the problems you have listed substantially. It is my hope that the lessons used on the MTB side will make the roadtire teething period shorter. If they can get them working as well as my MTB combination does, they will be a viable option to tubed and tubular tires. If not, then not.

    Best,

    Michael

    P.s. I run tubed tires on my hardtail, Fire XC Pros again, and they are much lighter, a little harder, and flat about twice a year (though I ride the bike about half as much as the fully).



    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand
    Micheal,

    I rode a tubeless wheelset for two years. It was a Mavic 3.1 UST Disc rim mated to a King Iso hub wheelset. Additionally several friends ride UST, and I work at a shop part-time. So, I have lots of experience with UST. I think you are omitting some rather large issues still remaining.

    1. Installation is a nightmare on many UST Tires. Certain brands can be a disaster to mount even with soapy water and steel DH levers. On the trail, getting a UST bead on and off (to insert a tire) is not really feasible for most riders.

    2. Weight problems. While UST tire manufacturers made outrageous weight claims, the digital scale in the shop doesn't lie. UST tires are much heavier then regular tires and tubes. That additional weight is all rotating weight too. Often I saw UST tires weighing 100+ grams more then claimed.

    3. Leakage problems. Unless you add additional goop (which adds even more weight, mess, hassle, and difficulty of swapping tires) many UST tires leak air disturbingly fast- especially if they are "light" UST tires.

    4. Fun with Stan's goop and the PITA of mounting a tire with it. Also the large group of people who had quite bad experiences with it (burping sidewalls, failed mounts, ect). Honestly it is a expert wrench only product, and not for people without patience and spare time. While a good skilled mechanic can make it work nicely, overall it is not ready for the general population's use.

    5. UST tires are more expensive on average.

    However, for people who pinch flat alot, or ride nasty conditions calling for low pressures- or for people riding rougher courses on AL framed race bikes, UST is certainly worth considering.

    But, since my new ride came without UST tires- I have been surprised to find that I haven't had any additional pinch flats or grip issues with the regular tires over the UST ones.

    Coolhand

  16. #16
    flinty-eyed moderator
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    Post Some new details

    From BRAIN:

    Michelin Tubeless Road Tires Hit Pavement This Season

    FEBRUARY 06, 2004 -- GREENVILLE, SC (BRAIN)--If Michelin has its way the tube will be going the way of the Dodo. European road pros are currently racing Michelin tubeless road tires, which the company developed using what it learned with its off-road tubeless models.

    Michelin is releasing three models targeting general racing: Pro Race, Pro Grip for wet conditions, and Pro Special Paves, a 24-millimeter rough road version.

    The tires are slated for consumer release next year.

    Mavic is providing a special rim for the system.

    The advantages of tubeless road tires are different than those of off-road, according to company spokesman Steve White, citing that one can ride a tubeless tire with a puncture much longer than a traditional punctured tire, which can go completely limp in seconds. Also, mounting the tire is easier than a traditional clincher, because there is no tube, he said.

    France's other tire maker Hutchinson is also releasing tubeless road tires to the pros this year, and like Michelin will have consumer versions available next year. Hutchinson is also working on a rim-strip that may allow the tires to be used on standard clincher wheels.

    http://www.bicycleretailer.com/bicyc...ent_id=2085720

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