my experience with Jamis
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  1. #1

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    my experience with Jamis

    Since there's no Jamis manufacturer's forum, I'm posting this here as an FYI. Before I bought my bike, I did some research and found Jamis to have an excellent reputation for customer service. Here is my experience.

    First, my problem:
    I've had my 05 Quest since the end of May. From day 1 I have had issues with the rear wheel pulling out of the dropouts under heavy torque loads. Each time it happens, the rear triangle gets tweaked just a bit, the tire flats, and the chain stays get scratched up from the skewer and/or cassette. I've had it happen 4 times in about 100 miles. I'm 5-8, 180lbs.

    I e-mailed Jamis about the problem:
    I've got an 05 Quest with just over 100 miles on it. I've had repeated problems with the rear wheel pulling out of the dropouts when climbing out of the saddle. Every time it happens I end up with a flat and the chain stays get chewed up, especially on the drive side by the cassette. I've tried a few things at the suggestion of my local bike shop with no success. There seems to be a problem with the interface between the hub/dropout/quick release skewer.

    My local bike shop has suggested that I buy new skewers for the bike - they recommended Hope or Salsa. I don't feel that I should have to buy new parts to make the bike function properly. It's not like this is a Wal-Mart bike or something. There are safety issues that come into play as well when something like this happens in traffic.

    What do I need to do to get this bike warantied out? At this point, I'd be hard pressed to ride a bike with the Velomax wheels again, especially with Velomax skewers. I'd be more than happy to discuss a cash replacement or a new frame and/or wheelset if that is the direction you'd like to go. I might even be willing to upgrade to the Comet or Eclipse frame if I can work out the money part of it. I just want to be able to focus on my riding, not on mechanical issues.

    The Quest feels like a good bike, but it's just not reliable or safe enough for me to ride with any regularity.

    I look forward to hearing from you.


    their response

    Hi Jackson,

    I am sorry the hear about your problem. We have not had problems so far with our 05 Quest. The Velomax Vista is a great wheel set which uses a open cam-type skewer. This type of skewer is a simple and efficient design used by many manufacturers. I have been using a set of Velomax wheels with the same skewer for several years now with no problem.

    Certain types of dropout might require a larger force on the cam of the skewer to get a sufficient locking strength. Riders with a more abrupt pedaling style need to have their skewers on tighter than other riders.

    I can ship your shop a pair of closed cam Shimano XT skewers. These will provide a much better clamping force. Please let me know the dealer name so I can ship the parts out. The shop will have to trim the rear skewer because it has mountain bike spacing.

    The Quest is a great bike that has been selling out year after year. It has received several awards including a bike of the year award from Bicycling. I am sure that with the Shimano skewers you will be able to enjoy your great bike.

    Best Regards



    my response to them

    Thank you for the quick response.

    My concern is two fold. First, I want a bike I can count on to finish a ride. Second, the bike is still basically brand new (only about 100 miles on it), yet the chain stays are all beat up from wheel pulling loose and the cassette dragging across the paint. I know it's only the finish, but it is basically a new bike, and I spent a good deal of money on it. If it were my mountain bike, I wouldn't care as much because the paint takes a beating on every ride. That's not the case with my road bike - it should look good for quite a long time as there is significantly less wear and tear on the paint. Unfortunately that's not the case here, and it's because of a component problem.

    I'll take the skewers if you're sure that will fix the problem, but I'm still left with a basically new bike that looks 3 years old. I guess I'm just a little frustrated and disappointed that my baby is all beat up due to a part problem. It would be one thing if it were my fault, but...

    Thanks again for the response. It's not what I was hoping for, but I guess I'm out of options.

    Sincerely,
    Jackson Taylor




    Their response to me:
    Hi Jackson,

    I understand your concerns and disappointment with the scratches on your chain stay. I have tested a 05 Nova with the same dropouts this morning on my morning ride, it was setup with Velomax wheels and XT skewers. I had no problems with any wheel shift. I am 175lbs, 6 foot, strong legs. Can I guarantee that your wheel will never pull out again? Unfortunately I can't.

    I have Radium Blue touch-up paint that can fix some of the scars on your bike.

    When I started the whole thing, I went into it with the opinion that new skewers were the absolute least they could do, but that a replacement frame would be my preference. Considering their reuptation for customer service, I didn't think it was out of the question.

    I don't have a problem with their decision... the problem I have is the apparent atitude of the guy I was dealing with. I thought it sounded like he was imply it was my fault I was having problem and that since he has run the same skewer, there couldn't possibly be any problems with it. I also thought it was odd that he was running a velomax wheelset... seems like most reps run pretty high end stuff because of their connections, so I would have thought he'd be on Mavics or similar high end wheels, but that's kind of beside the point.

    Anyways... after the final e-mail, they were very fast in shipping out a set of Ultegra skewers and a fingernail polish-syle bottle of touch-up paint. So now that everything is said and done, have they done enough to piss me off to the point where I'll never buy a Jamis again? No, not really... but I also have no real loyalty to them... certainly not like I do Yeti (I've had excellent luck with them).
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    Jackson
    05 Jamis Quest
    04 Yeti 575

  2. #2
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    So instead of blaming yourself for not tightening a skewer properly or doing your due diligence in attempting to find a different rear skewer to fix the problem, you get on here and malign a company that makes great products at affordable prices. A rear wheel falling against the stay happens to everyone. And skewers of that design SUCK.

    What did you expect tham to do, send you a new bike?? I think a $40 set of skewers and touch paint sent gratis was stepping up on Jamis' part. His attitude was professional and did not smack of anything other than wanting to make it right for you.

    Be reasonable...
    Pretty much here just to piss you off...

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by merckx56
    So instead of blaming yourself for not tightening a skewer properly or doing your due diligence in attempting to find a different rear skewer to fix the problem, you get on here and malign a company that makes great products at affordable prices. A rear wheel falling against the stay happens to everyone. And skewers of that design SUCK.
    easy there killer...

    First off, if the skewers suck, don't spec them on anything but an entry level bike. I don't consider the Quest to be an entry level bike. Second, I don't feel like I should have to buy parts to make the bike work correctly/safely. Third, I did try several times to ajust the skewer... the only way I could keep the rear wheel from coming loose was to tighten the skwere down so tight I couldn't get it open without using something (a screwdriver) to pry it open. I flatted on a piece of glass during a ride and couldn't get the skewer open. I ended up having to call my wife to come get me 20some miles away.

    Now, like I said... skewers and touch up paint were a fine solution - I'm satisified with that. Perhaps I was/am a little more sensitive because all this is happening to me, but all the guy had to do was to say, "Sorry to hear about yoru problems. I think a new set of skewers with internal cams will solve your problem. They tend to be more secure while being easier to open and close. I can also send some touch-up paint for the scratches." But instead I got a schpiel about how he was running the same skewer with no problems. I don't really care... he's not me, I'm not riding his bike, and I am having problems.

    I thought it would have been great if they sent a replacement frame, but I certainly wasn't expeciting it. If they had, I would be singing their praises right now and would be a Jamis customer for life. As it is, I've only had an "OK" experience with them, and they've done nothing to separate themselves in my mind from any other bike manufacturer out there.
    Cycle-CNY.com | TrailBlazers Bike Shop

    Jackson
    05 Jamis Quest
    04 Yeti 575

  4. #4
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    Being a Jamis rider, I am satisfied with the level of service they are offering you.

  5. #5
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    Have had excellent service from Jamis.

    My 200 pound son broke one side of the swing-arm on his 4 year old Jamis Dakar mtb. Two shops, one at Mt Snow and another in Brattleboro, swore up and down it was not a replaceable part and we were doomed to fighting for a new frame. Jamis sent us a new swing-arm with no delay, dispute or argument. I was impressed.

    My sense of the skewer question is that there is spot between too loose to hold the axle in place and so tight you need another lever to open it. The person who initially set up the bike was responsible for finding that spot.
    We have nothing to lube but our chains.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonpt
    easy there killer...

    First off, if the skewers suck, don't spec them on anything but an entry level bike. I don't consider the Quest to be an entry level bike. Second, I don't feel like I should have to buy parts to make the bike work correctly/safely. Third, I did try several times to ajust the skewer... the only way I could keep the rear wheel from coming loose was to tighten the skwere down so tight I couldn't get it open without using something (a screwdriver) to pry it open. I flatted on a piece of glass during a ride and couldn't get the skewer open. I ended up having to call my wife to come get me 20some miles away.

    Now, like I said... skewers and touch up paint were a fine solution - I'm satisified with that. Perhaps I was/am a little more sensitive because all this is happening to me, but all the guy had to do was to say, "Sorry to hear about yoru problems. I think a new set of skewers with internal cams will solve your problem. They tend to be more secure while being easier to open and close. I can also send some touch-up paint for the scratches." But instead I got a schpiel about how he was running the same skewer with no problems. I don't really care... he's not me, I'm not riding his bike, and I am having problems.

    I thought it would have been great if they sent a replacement frame, but I certainly wasn't expeciting it. If they had, I would be singing their praises right now and would be a Jamis customer for life. As it is, I've only had an "OK" experience with them, and they've done nothing to separate themselves in my mind from any other bike manufacturer out there.
    Again, you crap on Jamis customer service because of a bad skewer.

    They shouldn't bend over and send you new frame because of a bad skewer. They sent you new skewers and paint to fix the problem. They could have told you to get bent!

    I ride Jamis cross and mountain bikes and have nothing but stellar service from them when I needed something. Included in that is the replacement frame for my mountain bike that was sent before they got the broken frame back. I sent digital pics to their warranty department and had a frame 3 days later...

    Stop crying and go ride...
    Pretty much here just to piss you off...

  7. #7
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    like jamis

    i've got a jamis mtn bike (dragon, 853 steel)... love the company's bikes, philosophy and service. so i'm coming from a biased position....

    but i think the cust rep guy did a fine job...one he didn't just say "tough." he was trying to track down your problem by replicating on his own gear. you got a new set of skewers and paint, where some other company/dealer might have said "tough."

    even if you bought a seven/serotta/other mega$ bike brand, i doubt you would've gotten any better service, definitely not a new frame....

    john

    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonpt
    Since there's no Jamis manufacturer's forum, I'm posting this here as an FYI. Before I bought my bike, I did some research and found Jamis to have an excellent reputation for customer service. Here is my experience.

    First, my problem:
    I've had my 05 Quest since the end of May. From day 1 I have had issues with the rear wheel pulling out of the dropouts under heavy torque loads. Each time it happens, the rear triangle gets tweaked just a bit, the tire flats, and the chain stays get scratched up from the skewer and/or cassette. I've had it happen 4 times in about 100 miles. I'm 5-8, 180lbs.

    I e-mailed Jamis about the problem:




    their response






    my response to them







    Their response to me:



    When I started the whole thing, I went into it with the opinion that new skewers were the absolute least they could do, but that a replacement frame would be my preference. Considering their reuptation for customer service, I didn't think it was out of the question.

    I don't have a problem with their decision... the problem I have is the apparent atitude of the guy I was dealing with. I thought it sounded like he was imply it was my fault I was having problem and that since he has run the same skewer, there couldn't possibly be any problems with it. I also thought it was odd that he was running a velomax wheelset... seems like most reps run pretty high end stuff because of their connections, so I would have thought he'd be on Mavics or similar high end wheels, but that's kind of beside the point.

    Anyways... after the final e-mail, they were very fast in shipping out a set of Ultegra skewers and a fingernail polish-syle bottle of touch-up paint. So now that everything is said and done, have they done enough to piss me off to the point where I'll never buy a Jamis again? No, not really... but I also have no real loyalty to them... certainly not like I do Yeti (I've had excellent luck with them).
    road:: serotta.colorado calfee.tetrapro
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  8. #8

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    Sorry dude, but I agree with everyone else

    There isn't much else the rep can do for you. Free skewers and touch-up paint ain't bad IMO. I think a new frame is a lot to ask for. I suppose a crash replacement might be an option, provided Jamis offers that. Crash replacement isn't technically limited to any particular situation for most companies offering it (as opposed to a warranty that would provide you with a free frame and has strict guidelines). I've done crash replacements on Trek frames that had been run into garages on roof racks and Trek replaced it at a little above dealer cost without any questions. But is a new frame what you really want? Think about it, the only damage to your frame is cosmetic (as far as I can tell from your post). Even getting a new frame at dealer cost through crash replacement would be a big expenditure and would essentially waste a perfectly functional frame. Maybe that's within reason for you, but I wouldn't be able to do it.

    Like a lot of purchases, there's always a risk of something going wrong that is out of the control of the company selling the product. The rep did well in taking care of you IMO. If he wanted to, he could have told you to take up your claim with Velomax, since they made the skewers. It doesn't sound like they could have known this was a problem, till...well...it happened. Just bad luck I guess. You can't expect a company to wait on you hand and foot (or however that stupid saying goes). I think they did the best they could.

  9. #9
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    I have to agree with everyone else. their providing a new set of skewers and touch up paint is acceptable - perhaps not excellent, but acceptable. if you really want to bad-mouth someone, it would be better to bad-mouth Easton (they aren't Velomax anymore). I don't think you could reasonably expect any company to replace the whole bike, not even the top-end ones. Jamis can't be responsible for every single component on the bike, they never made the components.

    otoh (just to be fair), I seem to recall (and I could be wrong about this) some instances where a company, I think Trek, warrantied frames that got destroyed because the components (ShimaNO) failed. that is excellent customer service. but Trek, the McDonalds of the bike industry, can afford to give it, and Jamis can't.

    of course, there could be a problem with the design of the dropouts, in which case your request might be reasonable. generally, though, this sort of thing won't happen on vertical dropouts. if you have horizontal dropouts, you need to use a really strong skewer, like Campy or Salsa. new-style skewers are often not strong enough to hold the wheel in.

    bikes are meant to get scratches. Richard Sachs, who custom builds $3k lugged steel framesets that are arguably the finest on the planet, and who has a 3-year waiting list, has stated (on the Serotta forum) that he would rather you race his frames and get them all scratched to hell than just keep them as showpieces.

  10. #10
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    Who built the bike?

    Who built the bike, and who did the final assembly/check on the bike? Did you buy this online or from a local shop? I'm not trying to start an internet vs. local shop debate, but sufficiently tightening the rear skewer is the cuprit, and you didn't indicate clearly in your post if you were the one who failed to do it, or if it was Jamis, or if it was a mechanic at a local shop.

    If you had bought it from a shop, then in my opinion that is their fault. If you had bought the bike online and didn't tighten the skewer sufficiently, then it's probably your fault. I'm pretty sure that online bike sellers are careful to send along a disclaimer that the bike should be inspected professionally before being ridden; otherwise there are just way too many things that can go wrong and haunt them.

    If you really believe that that skewer cannot be tightened sufficiently to prevent this kind of problem to happen, then you should consider making a claim against that skewer's manufacturer, since most likely Jamis is not the only bike company that they supply.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by weiwentg
    Jamis can't be responsible for every single component on the bike, they never made the components.
    Sure they are: they warranty those components for 1 year. Sections 2 & 6 of the
    Jamis warranty apply here. And, FWIW, I have no problem with their response in this case.

  12. #12
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    I hate those open cam QRs. I think Jamis is partially at fault for specing them, but tons of companies do. I only ride beefy Shimano QRs or beefy old school Campy steel QRs--both allow for a ton of clamping force. I do think Jamis has been fairly good so far. I think your LBS could have done better, though. But expecting a new frame out of the deal is a bit much... At the end of the day you are responsible for making sure your equipment is safe and is in working order. Do your research and learn as much as you can about wrenching and don't be too quick to blame others when you have equipment problems. I'd put on those XT QRs and a bit of touch up paint and move on...

  13. #13
    Beetpull DeLite
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    I echo Henry Chinaski's response. I ride a Jamis Ventura myself, and love the bike.

    I've also had a bad experience with the open-cam skewers in my mountain bike - they would get loose on their own. What'd I do? Sent them back for a refund, threw some Shimano skewers on the bike, and touched up the chainstays.

  14. #14
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    I think Jamis' response was adequate. A new frame for what is more likely your inability to tighten a quick release sufficiently is a bit much. You bought the bike with that particular spec, I assume you wished to have those particular parts and judged them adequate for your use. Your continually trying to make it work after the first instance without any improvement in results doesn't help your case. If there is something actually wrong with the dropout or the q-r you haven't described such. I am wondering why the qr handle was in contact with your frame, did it rotate into the stays when it came loose?

    Personally, I would have replaced the skewer if it was defective (which is easy, I've got plenty hanging around), but I'd also look at the dropouts for perhaps paint that didn't belong or some similar problem. That is the point at which you should have returned the bike to the point of sale and make them deal with it if you have no desire to deal with it yourself. Why are you working with Jamis directly? I suppose that implies an internet purchase and that you are your own mechanic, or at least should be if you buy complete bikes that way.

    On another note I do notice that if an exposed cam qr gets contaminated it doesn't work very well and won't tighten properly; I use them on several bikes and they definitely require more attention to keeping clean and lubricated to work optimally.
    Suum quique.

  15. #15

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    I had a friend go buy a new Trek 8000 mountain bike in the late 90s. Pretty fair aluminum hardtail, at the time mostly XT components. He and his family had been life long customers at this shop, on a first name basis with the owner. First day he got it we went to Case Mountain in Connecticut and rode the crap out of that mountain. On the way back to the parking lot, I was behind him and watched in horror as he caught a very thin (1/2") deadfall branch which kicked up and took his rear derailleur clean off. In coming off the torque of the chain on the now free swinging derailleur bent up the (non replaceable) hanger.

    On inspection it was apparent that the derailleur was not engaged in the hanger fully. The hanger's last 2 sets of threads were ripped away and the derailleur mounting bolt had fresh grease al the way down the length of the threads except the last 2 threads. We went straight to the shop that he bought the bike from; it turned out the Trek rep was in the store at that time, and after hearing the story and examining the bike he absolutely would not replace the frame. We both went to the owners office with the rep and after 45 minutes and the rep conference calling Waterloo, they would not budge and neither the shop or the rep would take ownership of the problem, despite mechanical evidence that the derailleur was improperly installed and the bike was less than a day old. They ended up cold setting the hanger back in place (not a smart thing to do with aluminum) and brushing on touch up paint which looked awful. My friend was pissed off, he never bought another bike at that shop again.

    The moral of the story is, you should be pretty happy with what Jamis did to make things right for you. LBSs and manufacturers generally don't give product away for damage situations that were not 100% ironclad non rider error. If there's a possibility, no matter how remote, that your recklessness or negligence caused the damage, you are in most cases on your own.

  16. #16
    Say "nuke-u-lar"
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    If he "rode the crap" out that mountain with a derailleur that only had been secured by two threads I'd be amazed; I'd be amazed he got out of the parking lot in the first place.
    Last edited by Bikinfoolferlife; 08-30-2005 at 10:58 PM.
    Suum quique.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonpt
    Since there's no Jamis manufacturer's forum, I'm posting this here as an FYI. Before I bought my bike, I did some research and found Jamis to have an excellent reputation for customer service. Here is my experience.

    First, my problem:
    I've had my 05 Quest since the end of May. From day 1 I have had issues with the rear wheel pulling out of the dropouts under heavy torque loads. Each time it happens, the rear triangle gets tweaked just a bit, the tire flats, and the chain stays get scratched up from the skewer and/or cassette. I've had it happen 4 times in about 100 miles. I'm 5-8, 180lbs.

    I e-mailed Jamis about the problem:




    their response






    my response to them







    Their response to me:



    When I started the whole thing, I went into it with the opinion that new skewers were the absolute least they could do, but that a replacement frame would be my preference. Considering their reuptation for customer service, I didn't think it was out of the question.

    I don't have a problem with their decision... the problem I have is the apparent atitude of the guy I was dealing with. I thought it sounded like he was imply it was my fault I was having problem and that since he has run the same skewer, there couldn't possibly be any problems with it. I also thought it was odd that he was running a velomax wheelset... seems like most reps run pretty high end stuff because of their connections, so I would have thought he'd be on Mavics or similar high end wheels, but that's kind of beside the point.

    Anyways... after the final e-mail, they were very fast in shipping out a set of Ultegra skewers and a fingernail polish-syle bottle of touch-up paint. So now that everything is said and done, have they done enough to piss me off to the point where I'll never buy a Jamis again? No, not really... but I also have no real loyalty to them... certainly not like I do Yeti (I've had excellent luck with them).
    I think Jamis is doing a lot for you. The rep clearly stated that the issue you are having is the first one they had encountered. So what would make them think it is the frames fault?

    In your first email you never stated any type of concern about your bike being scratched. You did say that it was getting chewed up, but that is not a warranty issue. Imagine how much money companies would lose if they gave crash replacement or discounted upgrades to all the people that had a scratched frame.

    Maybe before you jump to a conclusion and think that you are not getting excellent service from Jamis you should use the new skewers and see if that works. If it doesn't, then certainly contact them back, send them pictures of your frame and maybe they will see there is an issue with that one frame.

    I just hope they are this eager to help you since you have come to a public forum to say they aren't helping you out. I would just hope they have not come across this thread.

    You never did tell us how the new skewers are working.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpuffe
    I had a friend go buy a new Trek 8000 mountain bike in the late 90s. Pretty fair aluminum hardtail, at the time mostly XT components. He and his family had been life long customers at this shop, on a first name basis with the owner. First day he got it we went to Case Mountain in Connecticut and rode the crap out of that mountain. On the way back to the parking lot, I was behind him and watched in horror as he caught a very thin (1/2") deadfall branch which kicked up and took his rear derailleur clean off. In coming off the torque of the chain on the now free swinging derailleur bent up the (non replaceable) hanger.

    On inspection it was apparent that the derailleur was not engaged in the hanger fully. The hanger's last 2 sets of threads were ripped away and the derailleur mounting bolt had fresh grease al the way down the length of the threads except the last 2 threads. We went straight to the shop that he bought the bike from; it turned out the Trek rep was in the store at that time, and after hearing the story and examining the bike he absolutely would not replace the frame. We both went to the owners office with the rep and after 45 minutes and the rep conference calling Waterloo, they would not budge and neither the shop or the rep would take ownership of the problem, despite mechanical evidence that the derailleur was improperly installed and the bike was less than a day old. They ended up cold setting the hanger back in place (not a smart thing to do with aluminum) and brushing on touch up paint which looked awful. My friend was pissed off, he never bought another bike at that shop again.

    The moral of the story is, you should be pretty happy with what Jamis did to make things right for you. LBSs and manufacturers generally don't give product away for damage situations that were not 100% ironclad non rider error. If there's a possibility, no matter how remote, that your recklessness or negligence caused the damage, you are in most cases on your own.
    I've built up hundreds of Treks. Never saw one where the der wasn't tightened down from the factory, and in any case it's something that is checked by even the greenest shop wrench when the bike is being built. What you described could have easily been the result of what happened with the stick, and there is no way to know/prove the shop or Trek were at fault after the fact.

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