The Once and For All, End All Be All, Chain Lube Thread - Page 3
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  1. #51
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    IMO u are all missing an important component of wear, load.
    Please post your average wattage for the 12000 miles. ...or mph/total wt/elev gain.
    Then we will a clear answer. ... so this ain't over yet!
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  2. #52
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    It's funny, I only recently bought a Park Tool CC-2, and realized my SRAM Red chain that I just replaced in late May or early June, and it was already showing up with between .50 - .75 stretch (and yes, I know it's not truly "stretched"). So, that said, clearly it's important to do thinks such as use WD40 on the outside of the chain to degrease it, and then use a good dry lube (actually I really like DuPont's Teflon Chain Saver... as well as Super Lube's spray lube.

    I realized how important the grease on the rollers were when I bathed my old 11 sp SRAM chain in gasoline. It was sparkling clean, but when I road it, it squeaked. In addition, I've read a lot of positive things about the German OEM grease SRAM uses on its chains (Gleitmo).

    All of the above said, and given I can get a SRAM PC 1130 chain for only about $20... efficiency wise, it just makes more sense to me to religiously change your change. Again, until I bought the CC-2 chain tool, I really wasn't aware of just how much I stretched such a high quality chain in such a short period of time. So, to summarize, the base grease (Gleitmo) is great, use WD40 or even gasoline (carefully) to degrease the outside chain links, inexpensive high quality chain lubes such as Dupont Chain Saver and Super Lube work excellent and are very inexpensive per oz, and finally... purchase a high quality variable (measuring) chain checker such as the Park CC-2 or Unior 1643/4 to better know when you need to switch out your worn chain.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    It's funny, I only recently bought a Park Tool CC-2, and realized my SRAM Red chain that I just replaced in late May or early June, and it was already showing up with between .50 - .75 stretch (and yes, I know it's not truly "stretched"). So, that said, clearly it's important to do thinks such as use WD40 on the outside of the chain to degrease it, and then use a good dry lube (actually I really like DuPont's Teflon Chain Saver... as well as Super Lube's spray lube.

    I realized how important the grease on the rollers were when I bathed my old 11 sp SRAM chain in gasoline. It was sparkling clean, but when I road it, it squeaked. In addition, I've read a lot of positive things about the German OEM grease SRAM uses on its chains (Gleitmo).

    All of the above said, and given I can get a SRAM PC 1130 chain for only about $20... efficiency wise, it just makes more sense to me to religiously change your change. Again, until I bought the CC-2 chain tool, I really wasn't aware of just how much I stretched such a high quality chain in such a short period of time. So, to summarize, the base grease (Gleitmo) is great, use WD40 or even gasoline (carefully) to degrease the outside chain links, inexpensive high quality chain lubes such as Dupont Chain Saver and Super Lube work excellent and are very inexpensive per oz, and finally... purchase a high quality variable (measuring) chain checker such as the Park CC-2 or Unior 1643/4 to better know when you need to switch out your worn chain.
    The Park Tool CC-2 can give wildly inaccurate readings, seriously.

    Forget the fancy specialty tools. USE A RULER.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    The Park Tool CC-2 can give wildly inaccurate readings, seriously.

    Forget the fancy specialty tools. USE A RULER.
    Can I get an Amen!?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    It's funny, I only recently bought a Park Tool CC-2, and realized my SRAM Red chain that I just replaced in late May or early June
    Reporting your chain wear in 'months' is useless. Nobody knows how much you ride your bike.

    So, that said, clearly it's important to do thinks such as use WD40 on the outside of the chain to degrease it, and then use a good dry lube (actually I really like DuPont's Teflon Chain Saver... as well as Super Lube's spray lube.
    Degreasing the outside of your chain is useless. Useless.

    Dry lube? About as useful as degreasing the outside of your chain.


    I lube my chain every 500-1000mi. I don't degrease the outside. Sometimes I'll wipe it with a rag if I'm bored. I get well over 5,000mi on a chain.
    IMO you're doing something wrong.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    It's funny, I only recently bought a Park Tool CC-2, and realized my SRAM Red chain that I just replaced in late May or early June, and it was already showing up with between .50 - .75 stretch (and yes, I know it's not truly "stretched"). So, that said, clearly it's important to do thinks such as use WD40 on the outside of the chain to degrease it, and then use a good dry lube (actually I really like DuPont's Teflon Chain Saver... as well as Super Lube's spray lube.

    I realized how important the grease on the rollers were when I bathed my old 11 sp SRAM chain in gasoline. It was sparkling clean, but when I road it, it squeaked. In addition, I've read a lot of positive things about the German OEM grease SRAM uses on its chains (Gleitmo).

    All of the above said, and given I can get a SRAM PC 1130 chain for only about $20... efficiency wise, it just makes more sense to me to religiously change your change. Again, until I bought the CC-2 chain tool, I really wasn't aware of just how much I stretched such a high quality chain in such a short period of time. So, to summarize, the base grease (Gleitmo) is great, use WD40 or even gasoline (carefully) to degrease the outside chain links, inexpensive high quality chain lubes such as Dupont Chain Saver and Super Lube work excellent and are very inexpensive per oz, and finally... purchase a high quality variable (measuring) chain checker such as the Park CC-2 or Unior 1643/4 to better know when you need to switch out your worn chain.
    Check your next new chain with you new tool before riding and report back
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    Check your next new chain with you new tool before riding and report back
    This may not tell us anything either depending on where the nib on the Park tool rests, you could get different readings.

    I repeat: USE A RULER.
    "Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein.

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    bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    Reporting your chain wear in 'months' is useless. Nobody knows how much you ride your bike.
    Haha... I was just making a general comment that chains can wear out much faster than one would think. I have a full time job, so, I'm not riding thousands of miles a month. I just uploaded my info off my Garmin Edge the other night and I've ridden over 2300 miles since I installed the new chain around June, this year.

    So there you go - better?

    Degreasing the outside of your chain is useless. Useless.

    Dry lube? About as useful as degreasing the outside of your chain.
    Uhmmm, no, completely disagree. I mean, chains pick up debris.... clearly, it's helpful to keep the outside links clean as they muck up your cassette and jockey wheels, not to mention, cause additional abrasion which reduces efficiency. Seems kinda obvious.

    I lube my chain every 500-1000mi. I don't degrease the outside. Sometimes I'll wipe it with a rag if I'm bored. I get well over 5,000mi on a chain.
    IMO you're doing something wrong.
    Welp, I don't know what you're saving your lube for by only applying every thousand miles, but you do you. As for getting over 5K miles, well, maybe I'm just a stronger rider than you... or, you have some type of "magic chain." Who knows...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    Check your next new chain with you new tool before riding and report back

    I'll check it the next time I have it up on the stand, but I'm already aware that most manufacturers allow for a 0.25 "stretch" that allows the chains to be more efficient right out of the box. Too little tolerance makes them less efficient. SRAM and Shimano both have extremely good manufacturing tolerances, so I'm not expecting any surprises.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    The Park Tool CC-2 can give wildly inaccurate readings, seriously.

    Forget the fancy specialty tools. USE A RULER.
    A bent or a abused CC-2, maybe, but right out of the box, I'd beg to differ. I was watching a video of a school bike shop teacher (yeah, imagine that) where he had a KMC digital caliper and a well-worn CC-2, and the CC-2 was bang-on with the KMC digital caliper. My CC-2 is brand new, and I know how to properly use it, AND my shifting had degraded (vs the new chain), so I'm confident the chain was worn and the CC-2 confirmed my suspicion. It was well past the .50 mark and approaching the .75 stretch mark.

  11. #61
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    I'm assuming you just bought a bunch of stock in the guys that manuf. the chains?
    Do you 'Light It Up' after you soak in gas? OMG!
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    Uhmmm, no, completely disagree. I mean, chains pick up debris.... clearly, it's helpful to keep the outside links clean as they muck up your cassette and jockey wheels, not to mention, cause additional abrasion which reduces efficiency. Seems kinda obvious.
    You can disagree but you're wrong. Dirt/grease stuck to the outside doesn't magically jump inside the rollers.

    Welp, I don't know what you're saving your lube for by only applying every thousand miles, but you do you. As for getting over 5K miles, well, maybe I'm just a stronger rider than you... or, you have some type of "magic chain." Who knows...
    I know. Lots of people know. It's not a magic chain. This is how long ALL my chains last. Many chains over many years. A well lubed chain lasts that long.
    This is how I know you're doing something wrong.

    I'll check it the next time I have it up on the stand, but I'm already aware that most manufacturers allow for a 0.25 "stretch" that allows the chains to be more efficient right out of the box.
    OMG. No you do not know that! That is absolutely not true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    I'm assuming you just bought a bunch of stock in the guys that manuf. the chains?
    Do you 'Light It Up' after you soak in gas? OMG!

    Really, a $20 chain after 2k miles is too rich for your blood?

    As far as "lighting it up," you act as though you don't drive around in a mobile gas container every day. Many petroleum distillates are flammable, so they all should be handled with care - and I do.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    You can disagree but you're wrong. Dirt/grease stuck to the outside doesn't magically jump inside the rollers.
    I'm not wrong at all - muck on the outside of your chain also does not "magically" stay in place, either. It tends to get into the rest of your drivetrain - esp the cassette. You do realize how a derailleur and a cassette work together, right? You do realize that the outer links will hit the cogs on your rear cassette - right? I mean, this is fairly elemental stuff.

    I know. Lots of people know. It's not a magic chain. This is how long ALL my chains last. Many chains over many years. A well lubed chain lasts that long.
    This is how I know you're doing something wrong.
    Now, this was a RED chain with hollow pins, but chains do not usually last 5K miles from what I've read. I also don't hear anyone else on this forum jumping in to second your claim of 5k mile longevity. I mean, you can get 5K miles from a chain before it breaks, but in a modern tight-tolerance 11 speed drivetrain, I don't thing most people who are actually checking their chains (properly) are getting 5k miles on a chain.

    Just as an FYI to reinforce that you're completely wrong - a quick google confirms what I said and discounts what you claim (are you sure you're not measuring distance in kilometers?):

    6 Useful Facts About Your Bike Chain | Bicycling


    Replacing your chain regularly can prolong the life of your drivetrain. Most mechanics agree that you should replace your chain about every 2,000 to 3,000 miles, depending on your riding style.Apr 12, 2016



    OMG. No you do not know that! That is absolutely not true.
    OK, here you go (see below). A brand new Dura Ace chain (made in Japan, and subject to very tight manufacturing tolerances) measured .12mm "wear" brand new, out of the box. .50 is considered worn out, so .12 is approx 25% of .50.

    That all said, Kerin’s data does suggest the Shimano Ultegra HG-701 11-speed chain offers better durability over the more expensive Dura-Ace HG-901 model. There are a few factors here, but it comes down to the fact that Kerin’s sample set of Ultegra chains was vastly larger than that of the Dura-Ace. And where the Dura-Ace 11-speed posted better elongation wear numbers, it fell short with the digital chain checker (roller play and wear).

    This is explained by the Dura-Ace chain sample coming out of the box with a measured .12mm “wear” on the KMC digital chain checker, whereas the batch of Ultegra chains started at .05/.06mm measurable “wear”. Keep in mind that Kerin’s test considers .5mm to be worn out, and so .12mm is almost a quarter of the allowable wear allowance. Kerin believes this is a batch variance, and that it’s quite possible (even likely) the Dura-Ace chain can offer improved durability.
    Last edited by RidleyX; 4 Weeks Ago at 02:05 PM.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    ...most manufacturers allow for a 0.25 "stretch" that allows the chains to be more efficient right out of the box. Too little tolerance makes them less efficient.
    wth does this mean...???
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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    I also don't hear anyone else on this forum jumping in to second your claim of 5k mile longevity.
    see posts #30, 48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtox View Post
    wth does this mean...???

    See my last post - I quoted the article that discussed it. Here is some additional info, though:

    THE MOST EFFICIENT 11 AND 12-SPEED CHAINS

    There are a mind-numbing number of factors that go into making a chain efficient, and that’s no surprise when you consider there are over 38,000 unique instances of sliding friction involved every minute at 90 rpm. And when it comes to understanding what makes a chain fast, there’s arguably nobody on this planet that knows the space better than Jason Smith, formerly of FrictionFacts and now the Chief Technology Officer at CeramicSpeed.

    So what makes a chain fast? The brief answer is: larger gaps between the various components, allowing lubricant to travel freely and do its job while reducing the sheer amount of friction between the various chain parts. Examples of this are seen with KMC and Shimano chains, which are both known to show minor amounts of roller-based wear when new, and according to CeramicSpeed, are lightning-fast, too.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    I'm not wrong at all - muck on the outside of your chain also does not "magically" stay in place, either. It tends to get into the rest of your driver train - esp the cassette. You do realize how a derailleur and a cassette work together, right? You do realize that the outer links will hit the cogs on your rear cassette - right? I mean, this is fairly elemental stuff.
    We're talking about chain wear. Now you want to change the subject.

    My current cassette is at 15,000mi and perfectly fine. Lube doesn't harm the cassette. I'm 10000% confident what I'm doing is correct and what you're doing is not.


    Now, this was a RED chain with hollow pins, but chains do not usually last 5K miles from what I've read. I also don't hear anyone else on this forum jumping in to second your claim of 5k mile longevity.
    Demonstrating you don't know WTF you're talking about. Re-read the thread. Others here have said they get over 5,000mi. Search the forum... this is not unusual.


    I mean, you can get 5K miles from a chain before it breaks,
    Breaks? OMG LMAO. How long have you been riding a bike?


    Just as an FYI to reinforce that you're completely wrong - a quick google confirms what I said and discounts what you claim
    You should read that article closer. It doesn't say that.
    And if you're putting all your wealth of knowledge in something you read on Bicycling.com, it explains a lot.


    OK, here you go (see below). A brand new Dura Ace chain (made in Japan, and subject to very tight manufacturing tolerances) measured .12mm "wear" brand new, out of the box. .50 is considered worn out, so .12 is approx 25% of .50.
    That doesn't say what you said...
    "I'm already aware that most manufacturers allow for a 0.25 "stretch" that allows the chains to be more efficient right out of the box."
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    See my last post - I quoted the article that discussed it. Here is some additional info, though:
    lmao... FrictionFacts and CeramicSpeed are some of the least trustworthy sources. They are marketing gimmicks.

    Are you gonna school us on the amazingness of ceramic bearings next?
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    We're talking about chain wear. Now you want to change the subject.
    Nobody's changing anything - cassette muck gets onto the chain and vice versa. Once again, you're wrong, and I proved it, but you somehow use this... what did Walter Isacson say about Steve Jobs... I believe he call it a "reality distortion field" to explain why a bunch of garbage on the outside of your chain links on an 11 speed drivetrain somehow doesn't matter. That's ludicrous, and you have no idea what you're talking about.

    My current cassette is at 15,000mi and perfectly fine. Lube doesn't harm the cassette. I'm 10000% confident what I'm doing is correct and what you're doing is not.
    15K miles on one cassette??? Recommendations are to change the cassette maybe once for every 2 chains. Of course, you're claiming 5K miles per chain, when most would change in 2k - 3k miles, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this, either.

    Demonstrating you don't know WTF you're talking about. Re-read the thread. Others here have said they get over 5,000mi. Search the forum... this is not unusual.
    Haha! Because I missed one other misinformed person's quote in a large forum, means I don't know WTF (in bold) I'm talking about. I'd argue that you've just proven that at least you and that other guy don't know WTFeither of you are talking about. You can ride a chain 5K miles, but it will almost definitely start to wear down the teeth on your cassette cogs, prematurely, not to mention contribute to poor shifting.

    Breaks? OMG LMAO. How long have you been riding a bike?
    OMG yourself, lol! It's called a joke... a/k/a as an "exaggeration." How long have I been riding - how long have YOU been reading comments in forums? I mean, people sometimes say, after a long ride, that their legs feel like they're on fire... just to be clear, you don't have to worry, their kit really isn't engulfed in flames. It's an expression.

    You should read that article closer. It doesn't say that.
    And if you're putting all your wealth of knowledge in something you read on Bicycling.com, it explains a lot.
    Uhmmm, I was simply doing a quick google search to see what popped up regarding chain replacement recommendation and first damn thing I noticed on the very first Google result was that. While you're busy tell me how much you know about bike chains, why don't you quote me ONE reputable article that states an 11 speed bike chain should last more than 5,000 miles. I'll wait....

    That doesn't say what you said...
    "I'm already aware that most manufacturers allow for a 0.25 "stretch" that allows the chains to be more efficient right out of the box."
    Okay, wow, I'll admit, I did not have the details down EXACTLY, but that's 25% "worn out" and I wrote ".25"... I simply did not recall it, exactly. The point is that new chains don't get to you with no "stetch" built into them... the article points out that manufacturers allow play between the plates and links to allow lube to travel easily and too little tolerance actually causes additional friction. The best/fastest chains (such as the highest rated Ultegra and Dura Ace chains) come from the manufacturer with "built-in stretch."

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    Nobody's changing anything - cassette muck gets onto the chain and vice versa. Once again, you're wrong, and I proved it
    You didn't prove anything. Grease gets on a cassette. Whoopty do.





    15K miles on one cassette??? Recommendations are to change the cassette maybe once for every 2 chains. Of course, you're claiming 5K miles per chain, when most would change in 2k - 3k miles, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this, either.
    'Recommendations' from sources like Bicycling.com for people who don't know what they're doing.
    Most serious riders don't change their chains in 3,000 miles. That's what noobs do who don't know how to maintain their chain.

    Yea... 15,000miles on a cassette is no big deal.



    Haha! Because I missed one other misinformed person's quote in a large forum
    More than one. You should quit while you're behind.



    Okay, wow, I'll admit, I did not have the details down EXACTLY, but that's 25% "worn out" and I wrote ".25"... I simply did not recall it, exactly. The point is that new chains don't get to you with no "stetch" built into them... the article points out that manufacturers allow play between the plates and links to allow lube to travel easily and too little tolerance actually causes additional friction. The best/fastest chains (such as the highest rated Ultegra and Dura Ace chains) come from the manufacturer with "built-in stretch."
    Clueless... just clueless. Those chains aren't 25% 'worn out'. That is not what they're talking about.
    You don't understand how the KMC Digital chain checker works. And either way, the manufacturers surely aren't intentionally building in wear like you claim to make the chains faster.
    OMG this is just nuts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    You didn't prove anything. Grease gets on a cassette. Whoopty do.
    You really don't know what you're talking about. It's not just grease that get's on your cassette... are you really that myopic? The grease picks up pollutants from the road and that grit gets into your drivetrain and leads to wear. A bike chain is not a sealed system. Maybe gimme your address and I'll mail you a free Bike Maintenance 101 book, or maybe more aptly - Bicycle Maintenance for Dummies.


    'Recommendations' from sources like Bicycling.com for people who don't know what they're doing.
    Most serious riders don't change their chains in 3,000 miles. That's what noobs do who don't know how to maintain their chain.

    Yea... 15,000miles on a cassette is no big deal.
    Hahaha! Yes, the writers at Bicycling Magazine have no idea what they're talking about, esp when consulting experts in their field. No, the guy that changes his chain after 5K miles and cassette after 15K miles and claims the outside of your chain plates don't matter.... He's the expert! LMAO!



    Clueless... just clueless. Those chains aren't 25% 'worn out'. That is not what they're talking about.
    You don't understand how the KMC Digital chain checker works. And either way, the manufacturers surely aren't intentionally building in wear like you claim to make the chains faster.
    OMG this is just nuts.
    I more than understand how the KMC chain checker works. I've already pointed out that the video I watched showed a bike mechanic with both the CC-2 and the KMC showing that the readings both matched. Yes, you and your dollar store wooden ruler are getting more accurate results measuring the outside pin-to-pin distance... getting the centers of both pins exactly precise (of course). Maybe this is why you THINK your 5K mile chains are okay...

    Also, once again, here's the article that refers to the fact that top manufacturers deliberately build in "stretch" into their brand new chains in order to make them faster. Again, you really don't know what you're talking about. I'll take the engineer from Ceramic Speed's analysis over the angry forum guy with 15K mile cassettes, any day....

    THE MOST EFFICIENT 11 AND 12-SPEED CHAINS

    There are a mind-numbing number of factors that go into making a chain efficient, and that’s no surprise when you consider there are over 38,000 unique instances of sliding friction involved every minute at 90 rpm. And when it comes to understanding what makes a chain fast, there’s arguably nobody on this planet that knows the space better than Jason Smith, formerly of FrictionFacts and now the Chief Technology Officer at CeramicSpeed.

    So what makes a chain fast? The brief answer is: larger gaps between the various components, allowing lubricant to travel freely and do its job while reducing the sheer amount of friction between the various chain parts. Examples of this are seen with KMC and Shimano chains, which are both known to show minor amounts of roller-based wear when new, and according to CeramicSpeed, are lightning-fast, too.

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    ... a few comments.
    The clearances between new metal parts are defined as 'tolerances'. Anyone who refers to tolerances as 'wear' and claims to be mechanically /technically knowledgeable is suspect. Wear in chains is eccentric, no new chain is made eccentric.
    When you measure the chain, you don't measure center to center of the pins, you measure from leading or trailing edge to leading/trailing edge, thereby eliminating any guesswork on where the center is.
    .. please continue on with your comical babble.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    A bent or a abused CC-2, maybe, but right out of the box, I'd beg to differ. I was watching a video of a school bike shop teacher (yeah, imagine that) where he had a KMC digital caliper and a well-worn CC-2, and the CC-2 was bang-on with the KMC digital caliper. My CC-2 is brand new, and I know how to properly use it, AND my shifting had degraded (vs the new chain), so I'm confident the chain was worn and the CC-2 confirmed my suspicion. It was well past the .50 mark and approaching the .75 stretch mark.
    Well let's see. I can tell you I got 6,000 miles out of my last chain and the only reason I changed it was that it had a stiff link I couldn't work loose. The chain actually had no measurable wear. I changed it and guess what? It still shifts flawlessly with the existing cassette and crankset that now have 8,600 miles on them.

    Sooooo, if your chain is worn at 2,300 miles, you are either doing something wrong with your method of chain maintenance or you are using the Park tool wrong.

    Since you claim to know so much, why don't you prove me wrong and measure your chain wear with A RULER? Humor me.
    "Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein.

    "With
    bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."
    -- DCGriz, RBR.





  25. #75
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    You really don't know what you're talking about. It's not just grease that get's on your cassette... are you really that myopic? The grease picks up pollutants from the road and that grit gets into your drivetrain and leads to wear.
    pollutants Go on... keep 'educating' us.
    Cassettes wear at the teeth when the chain becomes elongated. Not from pollutants.

    My 15,000mi cassette isn't worn. Clearly I know what I'm talking about.
    But tell us more about your 2,300mi worn chain


    Also, once again, here's the article that refers to the fact that top manufacturers deliberately build in "stretch" into their brand new chains in order to make them faster. Again, you really don't know what you're talking about. I'll take the engineer from Ceramic Speed's analysis over the angry forum guy with 15K mile cassettes, any day....
    Angry? You're the one casting insults and getting all worked up. Speaking in circles and repeating yourself.

    FrictionFacts and CeramicSpeed are some of the least trustworthy sources. They are marketing gimmicks. Us real engineers know this. Suckers buy into it.

    You do you... enjoy your dry lube and 2,300mi chains.
    Custom Di2 & Garmin/GoPro mounts 2013 SuperSix EVO Hi-MOD Team * 2004 Klein Aura V

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