The Once and For All, End All Be All, Chain Lube Thread - Page 7
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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    As I said, all modern drivetrains are designed to work in all gear combos.

    If you mash rather than spin, this may put more wear on your chain, but probably not as significant a difference in wear as in your chains vs. others here.

    Sorry, I still think it's your lube.

    Here is an entire RBR thread on DuPont Chain-Saver... from 2011:


    https://forums.roadbikereview.com/co...nt-268625.html
    Originally Posted by lucky13I wanted info on DuPont Chain Saver so I went to DuPont website and followed the links to "contact us" and asked the difference between the two products. The response was from
    Bill Coleman

    Director of Sales & Marketing

    Finish Line Technologies, Inc.

    (Licensee, DuPont® Teflon™ Lubricants)

    Might this mean DuPont owns Finish Line?



    Very interesting.
    Thanks for posting the email. I guess Finish Line licenses and markets the product from DuPont.

    There's this, as well:

    https://www.roadbikerider.com/make-bike-chain-last/
    Make Your Bike Chain Last 3 Times Longer With This Technique


    This week’s Quick Tip comes from RBR reader Steve Bayard, and his method of chain maintenance that has dramatically increased the life of his road bike chain. Here’s what he sent us.
    Normally, a road bike chain seems to last in the range of 2,500 to 3,000 miles when serviced in a traditional manner.
    About three years ago, I changed the way I maintain my chain. A friend gave me a spray can of DuPont Chain-Saver Wax-Based Chain Lube w/Teflon. It’s a yellow can sold in Walmart and other hardware stores.
    After each ride before I put my bike away, I first ‘back-pedal’ the chain for 15 seconds, wiping it down with a paper towel to remove dirt and sand from the chain. I then spray the chain as I backpedal for another 15 seconds. I follow up with again backpedaling the chain another 15 seconds, wiping it down with a paper towel to remove excess lube and any remaining grit and sand.
    On the first chain I followed this very simple and easy procedure, I got over 10,000 miles before the chain gauge indicated it was time for a new chain. On two other chains I have gone 10,000 miles before replacing.

    This two minute drill also extends the life of the cassette substantially as my present Ultegra cassette is still shifting well after 24,000 miles…
    Last edited by RidleyX; 4 Weeks Ago at 12:52 PM.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    So the author of the 2nd one says he has 3 chains that have gone 10,000 miles before his wear gauge says it needs to be changed using this Dupont lube, and that's in "sandy Florida"? And with that change frequency his cassette lasted 24,000 miles without any shifting issues.
    That's 5x the life you are getting out of your chain, correct? Wonder why the difference?
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    So the author of the 2nd one says he has 3 chains that have gone 10,000 miles before his wear gauge says it needs to be changed using this Dupont lube, and that's in "sandy Florida"? And with that change frequency his cassette lasted 24,000 miles without any shifting issues.
    That's 5x the life you are getting out of your chain, correct? Wonder why the difference?

    Yeah, I noticed. I still see the same articles that talk about 2K mile chain life. High quality cassettes are made to be light and relatively inexpensive - usually. RED cassettes and Dura Ace would be exceptions to the inexpensive part. I was thinking anyone riding THAT many miles, and 24K is a helluva lot, may be riding long stretches of road in the same gear, so maybe that explains some of the longevity (assuming his story is actually accurate). The writer also says he rides 1K miles per month on the "sandy west coast" of FL. I doubt sand is as much of an issue on metal as the salty air. None the less, he clearly swears by DuPont Chain-Saver.

    Also, even that Bicycling article stated you can get as much as 8K miles on a chain if you ride in lower gear, render meticulous maintenance, and aren't a Clydesdale... but I haven't read ANY professional mechanics that recommended keeping a bike chain for 10K miles. I find it very hard to believe that a 10K mile chain is not stretched well over .50% over 10K miles of wear.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    Here is an entire RBR thread on DuPont Chain-Saver... from 2011:


    https://forums.roadbikereview.com/co...nt-268625.html



    There's this, as well:

    https://www.roadbikerider.com/make-bike-chain-last/
    Honestly, what does all this prove? One poster in that first thread touted this product.
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  5. #155
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    Here is an entire RBR thread on DuPont Chain-Saver... from 2011:


    https://forums.roadbikereview.com/co...nt-268625.html
    ]
    A 9yr old thread with a bunch of people not knowing anything about it.
    Nobody is saying about how great it is.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    A 9yr old thread with a bunch of people not knowing anything about it.
    Nobody is saying about how great it is.
    Well to be fair, Early One said it "works great" but didn't elaborate other than to cut and paste the Dumont ad for it.

    So it must be great because one guy in a 9-year old thread said so.
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  7. #157
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    routinely get more than 8K miles (measured using a steel ruler) from $30 KMC 10-spd chains...and the current DA cassette I'm using has at least 22.5K miles (not sure how many the previous owner put on it). shifting is smooth and trouble-free, so no plans to replace it anytime soon.

    my 'meticulous' chain maint consists of wiping it down with a t-shirt after most rides. solvent never touches it and it only comes off the bike at replacement time.

    sounds like the few riders getting only 2K miles are the outliers.
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  8. #158
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    so after all this we are down to ..... it's the mechanic?
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  9. #159
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    Funny this thread popped-up. Last few days I've been looking at the latest lube trends on this link -------> https://cyclingtips.com/2018/03/fast...ves-you-money/. Good, but boring also.

    I was a Prolink fan for many years, I just switched to Rock and Roll (wet) which should be delivered tomorrow. I also bought a proper Park chain cleaner and new to me degreaser instead of cleaning my chains with kerosene. IDK, bored around the house . . . .
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  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    And as we know, WD-40 is not a lubricant.
    I beg to differ. It's oil and solvents. Many chain lubes are...oil and solvents.
    #promechaniclife

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    Chains get elongated due to the outer side plates wearing which also makes a chain less stiff laterally

    Nope...it's wear on the bushings (inner plates), rollers, and pins.
    #promechaniclife

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    I beg to differ. It's oil and solvents. Many chain lubes are...oil and solvents.
    Hmmm, just like my homebrew - oil and mineral sprits. I stand corrected!
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  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    I believe TLG answered this one fairly well, and that was one of the quotes that I was referencing in previous posts where Ultegra and Dura Ace (among others) were examined on chain checkers (such as KMC's digital dedicated bike chain caliper). Interestingly the KMC had issues with SRAM chains as there were apparently difference in the rollers. I don't recall the entire reasoning, but it should be in the article... the KMC was determined to be accurate with respect to the Shimano chains, though.

    Also, yes, Shimano's Made in Japan stuff would only have slack in the chain (yes, "excess tolerance" if you prefer) if Shimano wanted it there. Although, it is interesting that one of the Dura Ace chains had significantly more slack than the Ultegra chain and the author of the article exclaimed that he believed that it was likely a manufacturing lot exception, but without examining more Dura Ace chains, I wouldn't be so sure. Shimano's Ultegra is known for high quality, light weight, and durability. Dura Ace has more of a reputation of extremely high quality finished, precision, and lightest weight, but lightest weight sometimes at the expense of durability. Given Shimano's reputation for quality, esp among its Made in Japan stuff, and esp on Dura Ace products, I'd find it surprising that Shimano didn't design that much slack into the Dura chain to make the chain faster.... but ultimately, less durable.

    A good question that wasn't resolved in those well-written articles was what point does a particular chain run fastest and most efficient during it's wear cycle? In other words, does a chain with .25% wear run faster than a chain with only .05% wear... and how about a chain with .40% wear vs .25% wear? Where is the Wear sweet spot?
    Who's TLG?

    I'm still not clear on when you say the "wear clock" should start, if I'm using a Park chain checker (instead of a ruler) to measure wear. If I'm using a different brand of chain checker, such as the KMC digital dedicated bike chain caliper, do I need to adjust the wear clock to reflect the greater accuracy of the measuring device?

    Also, and again forgive my unfamiliarity with technical terms, but if Shimano built in "excess tolerance," how would that differ from normal design tolerances?
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  14. #164
    xxl
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    Just read this, thanks. I'm amazed that you're getting 9K in a year living in Ohio. Although, the flat plains of OH vs the hills where I live in PA are something to behold. It's not as easy road riding around here, and quite honestly, it's dangerous - I've moved most all of my biking to the trails and parks.

    I am amazed that you're getting that much mileage out of a chain, though. Have you used your CC-2 on a Dura Ace chain (installed) with 8K miles on it? If so, what was the CC-2's recorded stretch?
    FWIW, Ohio has both flat plains (in the north), and serious hills (in the south).

    FTR, flat plains have wind.
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    There are over 13 million covid cases in the United States (as of Thanksgiving), eleven months after Donald Trump said it was "totally under control," and that "it's gonna be just fine."

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    Just read this, thanks. I'm amazed that you're getting 9K in a year living in Ohio. Although, the flat plains of OH vs the hills where I live in PA are something to behold. It's not as easy road riding around here, and quite honestly, it's dangerous - I've moved most all of my biking to the trails and parks.

    I am amazed that you're getting that much mileage out of a chain, though. Have you used your CC-2 on a Dura Ace chain (installed) with 8K miles on it? If so, what was the CC-2's recorded stretch?
    I don't remember the last time I used the CC-2 on a chain before this discussion, and don't have any with more than 4000 on it right now and thats an Ultegra on my Gravel bike which unfortunately only has 1 gravel ride on it, but I'll check it out before DK200 this year if that's not canceled again, should be over 8000 by then since I use it with road tires for my training rides. With 4000 on it now, it reads the same as a new one so I don't expect too much change by 8000 but will see.

    We do have some decent hills here in the South where I live like XXL mentioned, but not as much as the parts of PA I'm familiar with. Where we go gravel riding we typically get 100 ft of climbing / mile, so definitely not flat.
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  16. #166
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    Rock N Roll Gold

  17. #167
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidleyX View Post
    Yeah, I noticed. I still see the same articles that talk about 2K mile chain life.
    These articles in magazines like Bicycling.com are written towards newbie riders. The type of people who don't know how to measure their chain, or use a chain checker. For these types of people... yes 2,500mi is the safe point to replace a chain. Otherwise they risk ruining their entire drivetrain.

    From the Bicycling.com article.

    The 2,000-Mile Rule
    To avoid this accelerated wear of your cassette and chainrings, a general rule of thumb is to replace your bike’s chain every 2,000 miles. Mind you, this is just a starting point.


    How about this?
    https://road.cc/content/feature/when...r-chain-219450

    “For chain replacement we do not state 'every x kms' as this is not possible,” says SRAM.

    Campagnolo agrees.
    “It is difficult to pin down an exact number to kilometres due to the fact that riders come in different weights and sizes, ride differently, shift more or less frequently, develop more or less wattage, ride on flat or hilly terrain, clean or nasty conditions, take care or leave their chain dirty… all of which create large variables in just how much wear and tear is created,” says Campag's Joshua Riddle.

    “It can vary between 3,000km to 8,000km generally speaking, but it could be less or even more in some cases.”



    Zinn and the Art of Road Bike Maintenance...
    Chain life: 1,000 - 1,500 miles in dirty conditions or infrequent lubrication. Lighter cyclists riding on clean, dry roads might expect 2,000 - 3,000 miles with poor maintenance and up to 5,000 miles with a daily high-quality lubrication.

    Zinn also says that he gets almost infinite life out of his chainrings and cogs.
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  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    These articles in magazines like Bicycling.com are written towards newbie riders. The type of people who don't know how to measure their chain, or use a chain checker. For these types of people... yes 2,500mi is the safe point to replace a chain. Otherwise they risk ruining their entire drivetrain.

    From the Bicycling.com article.

    The 2,000-Mile Rule
    To avoid this accelerated wear of your cassette and chainrings, a general rule of thumb is to replace your bike’s chain every 2,000 miles. Mind you, this is just a starting point.


    How about this?
    https://road.cc/content/feature/when...r-chain-219450

    “For chain replacement we do not state 'every x kms' as this is not possible,” says SRAM.

    Campagnolo agrees.
    “It is difficult to pin down an exact number to kilometres due to the fact that riders come in different weights and sizes, ride differently, shift more or less frequently, develop more or less wattage, ride on flat or hilly terrain, clean or nasty conditions, take care or leave their chain dirty… all of which create large variables in just how much wear and tear is created,” says Campag's Joshua Riddle.

    “It can vary between 3,000km to 8,000km generally speaking, but it could be less or even more in some cases.”



    Zinn and the Art of Road Bike Maintenance...
    Chain life: 1,000 - 1,500 miles in dirty conditions or infrequent lubrication. Lighter cyclists riding on clean, dry roads might expect 2,000 - 3,000 miles with poor maintenance and up to 5,000 miles with a daily high-quality lubrication.

    Zinn also says that he gets almost infinite life out of his chainrings and cogs.
    Q) When should you replace your chain.

    A) When needed.
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    "With
    bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."
    -- DCGriz, RBR.





  19. #169
    tlg
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    Doing some bike maintenance. Here's my last two chains lube intervals and mileage.

    October 20, 2018.....556.7
    February 1, 2019......899
    April 4, 2019............417.5
    April 29, 2019..........506
    June 4, 2019............739.7
    August 4, 2019.........1251
    October 23, 2019......1,117
    November 4, 2019.....637
    ...............................6124.3 miles


    December 27, 2019 432
    March 7, 2020...........615.5
    May 11, 2020............1,028.90
    June 20, 2020...........750.4
    July 31, 2020.............879
    September 15, 2020...821.2
    November 1, 2020......661.9
    ................................4,368 miles


    After 4,000mi my current chain is just a hair over 1/32". Still quite a bit of life left untill 0.5%.
    Notice how clean it is!

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  20. #170
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    This is what he's basing that on.
    So what makes a chain fast? The brief answer is: larger gaps between the various components, allowing lubricant to travel freely and do its job while reducing the sheer amount of friction between the various chain parts.

    There's much more to it than "larger gaps". The best performing chains are made with better materials. Better heat treatment. Better chrome/nickle plating. Better low friction coatings. Any liquid lube can easily flow into the tiniest of gaps.
    And now to debunk this 'larger gaps' bull$#it.

    I measured the clearance between the chain roller and side plates with a feeler gauge. On a brand new Ultegra and Dura Ace chain it's 0.008". On my used chain it's a hair over .008".
    A gap .008" is huge in terms of capillary action. If the gap were only .001" it would easily wick the lube.
    The clearance between the roller ID and pin = .012". Almost 2x the side clearance. Gigantic.




    I placed a drop of Chain L (about the thickest lube there is) at the gap. Within a minute or two, it was gone. Completely wicked into the roller. It has no problems flowing to where it needs to go.

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  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    And now to debunk this 'larger gaps' bull$#it.

    I measured the clearance between the chain roller and side plates with a feeler gauge. On a brand new Ultegra and Dura Ace chain it's 0.008". On my used chain it's a hair over .008".
    A gap .008" is huge in terms of capillary action. If the gap were only .001" it would easily wick the lube.
    The clearance between the roller ID and pin = .012". Almost 2x the side clearance. Gigantic.




    I placed a drop of Chain L (about the thickest lube there is) at the gap. Within a minute or two, it was gone. Completely wicked into the roller. It has no problems flowing to where it needs to go.

    But....but.....but......RidleyX uses the bestest most spectacular chain lube the world has ever seen and he still only gets 2300 miles out of his chains.
    "Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein.

    "With
    bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."
    -- DCGriz, RBR.





  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    And now to debunk this 'larger gaps' bull$#it.

    I measured the clearance between the chain roller and side plates with a feeler gauge. On a brand new Ultegra and Dura Ace chain it's 0.008". On my used chain it's a hair over .008".
    A gap .008" is huge in terms of capillary action. If the gap were only .001" it would easily wick the lube.
    The clearance between the roller ID and pin = .012". Almost 2x the side clearance. Gigantic.




    I placed a drop of Chain L (about the thickest lube there is) at the gap. Within a minute or two, it was gone. Completely wicked into the roller. It has no problems flowing to where it needs to go.

    Interesting observations tlg. I guess Lombard is wasting his time by diluting his homemade motor oil chain lube 50% with OMS. I guess also it's a waste of time to run the cranks backwards to work the oil in. I don't think the waxy lubes like Squirt and Smoove wick in too well, I guess. I find it better to hit the chain with a heat gun with these lubes.

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDM View Post
    Interesting observations tlg. I guess Lombard is wasting his time by diluting his homemade motor oil chain lube 50% with OMS. I guess also it's a waste of time to run the cranks backwards to work the oil in. I don't think the waxy lubes like Squirt and Smoove wick in too well, I guess. I find it better to hit the chain with a heat gun with these lubes.
    Even if mineral spirits aren't necessary to get the lube thin enough to work into everything, it still wipes off much easier - which is the only reason I run the chain backwards after lubing.

    Not to mention mineral spirits is cheaper than motor oil.
    "Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein.

    "With
    bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."
    -- DCGriz, RBR.





  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    But....but.....but......RidleyX uses the bestest most spectacular chain lube the world has ever seen and he still only gets 2300 miles out of his chains.
    has non relation to road bike performance...flipper per up er..
    Quote Originally Posted by jnbrown View Post
    Rock N Roll Gold
    Humble Review Rocken Roll Gold: Superb

    1.Clean Bike Dry Lube
    2.Keeps Drive Components Residue Free.
    3. After Initial Dressing Easy Drop Application.
    4. Economical & Climate Efficient Bike Train Matinance .

    Cons's :
    1 Originals Posters Opinion ( Verboten Socken Frau )
    2.Frequent Application.
    3. Sand O Boxy Kinda Trollie Post
    4. Re Apply Every 100 Miles.
    Last edited by rudge66; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:44 PM.
    Persecuted, Crucified, Kicked Out Of The Sand Box! ... Banned ... and Resurrected !

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by rudge66 View Post
    Stop being the SandBox Queen such a rude thread trap.
    Humble Review:

    1.Clean Bike Dry Lube
    2.Keeps Drive Components Residue Free.
    3. After Initial Dressing Easy Drop Application.
    4. Economical & Climate Efficient Bike Train Matinance .

    Cons's
    1 Originals Posters 'S Opinion ( Verboten Socken Frau )
    2.Frequent Application.
    3. SandBoxy Kinda Trollie ...
    So how many miles do YOU get out of your chains, Rudge?

    And what is that fetish you have about sandboxes?
    "Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein.

    "With
    bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."
    -- DCGriz, RBR.





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