The Once and For All, End All Be All, Disc Brakes vs. Rim Brakes Thread - Page 33
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  1. #801
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    https://youtu.be/6nIqIIeW7fI

    ... well, maybe there is merit. i saw quite a few disc bikes in that video. I guess we'll see if the the majority of hte pros switch to discs.

  2. #802
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob13bob View Post
    the data makes a pretty clear winner in the first post. there are problems in the video, eg sample size of 1; but it's close enough
    from the video

    in a long straight descent.
    https://youtu.be/t0hKMgUEku4?t=345
    dry rim 6:36
    dry disc 6:38

    wet rim 7:52
    wet disc 7:44

    from the blog post 15.3 lbs vs 17.6 lbs.

    if the difference is so small on a straight descent, rim brakes will crush disc in real world conditions where terrain is flat / uphill riding factored in. Aero >>weight >> other factors. and rim brakes are significantly better in both of those categories.

    imagine if he road up those hills with one bike being 1.5lbs than the other. disc bike would be crushed.

    This is why in non drafting conditions, tdf TT and triathlon bikes look the way they do. when you're not drafting, aero is king. most of us ride in non drafting conditions. The day, the pros start using disc brakes in a non drafting event; is the day i'll be convinced... (but it's never gonna happen cause disc are significantly worse). in the drafting peloton, the disc brake drawbacks will be a lot less (keep in mind that UCI has a minimum weight on bikes that is now heavier that off the shelf consumer bikes). that ruleset makes discs a lot more competitive than they usually would be in the natural world [the world most of us ride in].

    now the blog post, 15.3 vs 17.6 lbs. nothing else needs to be looked at, that is HUGE.

    disc bikes have to have heavier wheels, heavier brake systems.

    why spend more money on a an inferior bike?
    I believe the Great Brake War of 2018 was declared over. An armistice was signed. Let the healing begin

  3. #803
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    Welcome, newbie. I'm sure those members who posted their replies 2 or 3 years ago are eagerly waiting to respond....
    Last edited by No Time Toulouse; 2 Weeks Ago at 02:59 PM.
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  4. #804
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob13bob View Post
    the data makes a pretty clear winner in the first post. there are problems in the video, eg sample size of 1; but it's close enough
    from the video

    in a long straight descent.
    https://youtu.be/t0hKMgUEku4?t=345
    dry rim 6:36
    dry disc 6:38

    wet rim 7:52
    wet disc 7:44

    from the blog post 15.3 lbs vs 17.6 lbs.

    if the difference is so small on a straight descent, rim brakes will crush disc in real world conditions where terrain is flat / uphill riding factored in. Aero >>weight >> other factors. and rim brakes are significantly better in both of those categories.

    imagine if he road up those hills with one bike being 1.5lbs than the other. disc bike would be crushed.

    This is why in non drafting conditions, tdf TT and triathlon bikes look the way they do. when you're not drafting, aero is king. most of us ride in non drafting conditions. The day, the pros start using disc brakes in a non drafting event; is the day i'll be convinced... (but it's never gonna happen cause disc are significantly worse). in the drafting peloton, the disc brake drawbacks will be a lot less (keep in mind that UCI has a minimum weight on bikes that is now heavier that off the shelf consumer bikes). that ruleset makes discs a lot more competitive than they usually would be in the natural world [the world most of us ride in].

    now the blog post, 15.3 vs 17.6 lbs. nothing else needs to be looked at, that is HUGE.

    disc bikes have to have heavier wheels, heavier brake systems.

    why spend more money on a an inferior bike?
    Well you don’t need to convince me! But of course disc brakes were never really about better performance. They’re about being able to sell everyone new frames and wheels and then the next lighter and more complements year after year again. Road discs are one of the biggest scams ever and 90% of the bike buying public got suckered. Oh and don’t forget all the trips to the bike shop to get that damn things fixed and tweaked.


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  5. #805
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob13bob View Post
    The day, the pros start using disc brakes in a non drafting event; is the day i'll be convinced...
    Keep an eye on teams riding Orbea for your opportunity.
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  6. #806
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by OldChipper View Post
    Well you don’t need to convince me! But of course disc brakes were never really about better performance. They’re about being able to sell everyone new frames and wheels and then the next lighter and more complements year after year again. Road discs are one of the biggest scams ever and 90% of the bike buying public got suckered. Oh and don’t forget all the trips to the bike shop to get that damn things fixed and tweaked.


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    Totally disagree. The added tire clearance alone, among many other reasons, is reason enough that disc is better. Period!
    “Man may trust man, Prince Elric, but perhaps we'll never have a truly sane world until men learn to trust mankind. That would mean the death of magic, I think.”

  7. #807
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob13bob View Post
    https://youtu.be/6nIqIIeW7fI

    ... well, maybe there is merit. i saw quite a few disc bikes in that video. I guess we'll see if the the majority of hte pros switch to discs.
    Well, the pros are encouraged to ride what their sponsors are pushing. Discs are the latest thing. They're also getting lighter. Will rim brakes join toe clips and straps, rat trap pedals, and vintage wool jerseys, in the dustbin of history?

    Hydraulic fluid would be the killer for me. Steel brake cables are so easy to maintain and last forever. Also, has anyone tried to true a disc that got slightly bent when the wheel was removed or installed? A real bummer.

  8. #808
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Well, the pros are encouraged to ride what their sponsors are pushing. Discs are the latest thing.
    Encouraged. But many are given the choice and will choose a rim brake bike for a mountain climb. But with the bike weight limit at 6.8kg, it's easy for the pros to have disc versions that are just as light. It's a no brainer.

    Hydraulic fluid would be the killer for me. Steel brake cables are so easy to maintain and last forever. Also, has anyone tried to true a disc that got slightly bent when the wheel was removed or installed? A real bummer.
    Displaying more of your non-knowledge. Once setup, disc's require far less maintenance that mechanical brakes.
    Truing a disc...pffftttt. That's simple. (and they don't get 'slightly bent from removing/installing)
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  9. #809
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    Displaying more of your non-knowledge. Once setup, disc's require far less maintenance that mechanical brakes.
    Truing a disc...pffftttt. That's simple. (and they don't get 'slightly bent from removing/installing)
    That's why Fred is a FORMER bike mechanic.

    Bent discs are very easy to straighten. No big deal. Hydraulics are self adjusting, so lower maintenance than mechanical.

    I have no real preference rim vs. disc brakes. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. Maintenance isn't really a valid argument.
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  10. #810
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    I agree with Lombard and others and yes I have ridden and owned both on road bikes at this point. In fact, I recently went back to rim after 2-3 years on disc equipped bikes (Fuji SL and Trek Domane). It hasn't been a major issue either way at all. Like Lombard said they are just different and neither is truly superior or inferior in general. It completely depends on what your interests and needs are. What I really logged in to say though is that I am truly amazed that this thread is still going almost exactly three years after I started it lol.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  11. #811
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    I agree with Lombard and others and yes I have ridden and owned both on road bikes at this point. In fact, I recently went back to rim after 2-3 years on disc equipped bikes (Fuji SL and Trek Domane). It hasn't been a major issue either way at all. Like Lombard said they are just different and neither is truly superior or inferior in general. It completely depends on what your interests and needs are. What I really logged in to say though is that I am truly amazed that this thread is still going almost exactly three years after I started it lol.
    Troublemaker!
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  12. #812
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Troublemaker!
    Totally lol.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  13. #813
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    I have both, and my bikes with thru axels and discs are simply better. Discs were the "newest thing" in road bikes FIVE years ago. Now they are the standard for all new bikes except the entry level stuff.

  14. #814
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand View Post
    I have both, and my bikes with thru axels and discs are simply better. Discs were the "newest thing" in road bikes FIVE years ago. Now they are the standard for all new bikes except the entry level stuff.
    Assuming this is not a troll...

    Well that's it folks! Coolhand has spoken; they're better.

    As always, the questions are:
    a) better at what and in what conditions
    b) at what cost (not just financial) and
    c) were rim brakes sufficient to the needs of most cyclists?

    And they're on all new bikes except the entry level stuff, you know, like the Pinarello F12, Colnago (who have a HUGE photo of Pogcar on a rim-brake V3R on their main webpage), Cervelo R5, Factor VAM those cheap crappy bikes the pros use. If discs are simply better why do dozens of pros still insist on using them? I guess they're not as smart as Coolhand.

    FWIW, last week, I spoke to one of the long-time employees at my (very large in terms of volume) LBS. He said they're seeing a significant increase in people who are getting fed up with the hassles of disc.

    Also, I understand that one very large manufacturer who was an early promoter of disc and who previously said that in 2 years all their bikes would be disc, is coming out with a brand new, high-end rim-brake bike.

    Now, better for revenue? I'll concede that point. ;)

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  15. #815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tschai View Post
    Totally disagree. The added tire clearance alone, among many other reasons, is reason enough that disc is better. Period!
    Why do I want or need more tire clearance on my ROAD bike????? I can already run 28mm tires and 30mm wide (external) rims if I should ever want to. Gravel, CX, MTB sure but we're talking road here.
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  16. #816
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    Anyone watching the Giro 2020 currently going on?
    Lots of wet and rainy stages, with lots of descents
    There are a mix of rim and disc bikes.
    And it's apparently clear that the rim bikes have no problem keeping up with the disc bikes on descents.

    So any speculation that disc has an advantage in wet descents is now disproven.

  17. #817
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    the plural of anecdote is not data

  18. #818
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    I'm not riding disks for the braking power, although it is a LOT nicer. My ride now and probably all future bikes will be disks, cause of the much tighter front end the through axle provides.
    And pro's are not a very good indication of braking performance, they don't use their brakes much and when they do, they are pro's!
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  19. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    And pro's are not a very good indication of braking performance, they don't use their brakes much and when they do, they are pro's!

    Two things to keep in mind about the pros:

    1) They don't chose what they ride. They ride what their sponsors give them.

    2) As you say, pros are pros. In other words, a "better" bike won't make the "engine" better. They have handling and coordination abilities us mere mortals don't come anywhere close to.
    Last edited by Lombard; 1 Week Ago at 07:10 PM.
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  20. #820
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    this whole thread, summarized


  21. #821
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand View Post
    "this whole thread, summarized...."
    No it isn't.
    Donald Trump has never had a wife he didn't cheat on.

    More Americans wanted Hillary Clinton to be President than wanted Donald Trump.

    There are over 8 million covid cases in the United States (as of October 15th), nine months after Donald Trump said it was "totally under control," and that "it's gonna be just fine."

  22. #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    no it isn't.
    shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type makes me puke! You vacuous toffee-nosed malodorous pervert!!!

  23. #823
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    then:

    M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!

    A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!

    M: Oh! Oh I see!

    A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.

    M: Oh...Sorry...

    A: Not at all!

    A: (under his breath) stupid git.

    (The man goes into room 12A. Another man is sitting behind a desk.)

    Man: Is this the right room for an argument?

    Other ManJohn Cleese) I've told you once.

    Man: No you haven't!

    Other Man: Yes I have.

    M: When?

    O: Just now.

    M: No you didn't!

    O: Yes I did!

    M: You didn't!

    O: I did!

    M: You didn't!

    O: I'm telling you, I did!

    M: You did not!

    O: Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?

    M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.

    O: Just the five minutes. Thank you.

    O: Anyway, I did.

    M: You most certainly did not!

    O: Now let's get one thing quite clear: I most definitely told you!

    M: Oh no you didn't!

    O: Oh yes I did!

    M: Oh no you didn't!

    O: Oh yes I did!

    M: Oh no you didn't!

    O: Oh yes I did!

    M: Oh no you didn't!

    O: Oh yes I did!

    M: Oh no you didn't!

    O: Oh yes I did!

    M: Oh no you didn't!

    O: Oh yes I did!

    M: No you DIDN'T!

    O: Oh yes I did!

    M: No you DIDN'T!

    O: Oh yes I did!

    M: No you DIDN'T!

    O: Oh yes I did!

    M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!

    (pause)

    O: Yes it is!

    M: No it isn't!

    (pause)

    M: It's just contradiction!

    O: No it isn't!

    M: It IS!

    O: It is NOT!

    M: You just contradicted me!

    O: No I didn't!

    M: You DID!

    O: No no no!

    M: You did just then!

    O: Nonsense!

    M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!

    (pause)

    O: No it isn't!

    M: Yes it is!

    (pause)

    M: I came here for a good argument!

    O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!

    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.

    O: Well! it CAN be!

    M: No it can't!

    M: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

    O: No it isn't!

    M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.

    O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!

    M: Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.

    O: Yes it is!

    M: No it isn't!

    O: Yes it is!

    M: No it isn't!

    O: Yes it is!

    M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.

    O: It is NOT!

    M: It is!

    O: Not at all!

    M: It is!

    (The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.)

    O: Thank you, that's it.

    M: (stunned) What?

    O: That's it. Good morning.

    M: But I was just getting interested!

    O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.

    M: That was never five minutes just now!!

    O: I'm afraid it was.

    M: (leading on) No it wasn't.....

    O: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.

    M: WHAT??

    O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

    M: But that was never five minutes just now!
    Oh Come on!
    Oh this is...
    This is ridiculous!

    O: I told you... I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!

    M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.) There you are.

    O: Thank you.

    M: (clears throat) Well...

    O: Well WHAT?

    M: That was never five minutes just now.

    O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!

    M: Well I just paid!

    O: No you didn't!

    M: I DID!!!

    O: YOU didn't!

    M: I DID!!!

    O: YOU didn't!

    M: I DID!!!

    O: YOU didn't!

    M: I DID!!!

    O: YOU didn't!

    M: I don't want to argue about it!

    O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!

    M: Ah hah! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing??? Ah HAAAAAAHHH! Gotcha!

    O: No you haven't!

    M: Yes I have! If you're arguing, I must have paid.

    O: Not necessarily. I *could* be arguing in my spare time.

    M: I've had enough of this!

    O: No you haven't.

    M: Oh shut up!

    (Man leaves the office)

  24. #824
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Two thing to keep in mind about the pros:

    1) They don't chose what they ride. They ride what their sponsors give them.

    2) As you say, pros are pros. In other words, a "better" bike won't make the "engine" better. They have handling and coordination abilities us mere mortals don't come anywhere close to.
    Pros have engines, that i agree.

    But for the handling abilities, well now, this is not necessarily true. Around here in the local Calabassas mountains of Socal, where many pros, including some World Tour but mostly domestic pros, come to train during the winter months (because Socal). And the fastest downhill KOMs are in fact not held by pros. There is one local downhill KOM guy in particular is pretty well know for setting crazy KOMs using a his rim brake bike, dropping many guys on disc brakes. And he would leave some sport motorcycle guys in the dust in many twisty sections. As an example, in sections of twisties with posted 25mph sign, he would take that corner at close to 40 mph. Then in another particular ~5 mi road descent with about 15 turns (a mix of sweepers and 180d hairpins), most people touch their brakes in every turn, some harder than others. to scrap off speed; this guy he would only touch his brakes 3 times (mainly in the 180d hairpin) the entire way down.

  25. #825
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    That's interesting, but the pro's are just visiting.
    He'd still be faster yet on a full disk brake bike. ....oh, and, a, don't follow that guy downhill, ever!
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