petition in new zealand about killer driver lenient sentence.
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  1. #1
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    petition in new zealand about killer driver lenient sentence.

    If you have a minute the cyclist's parents would appreciate your electronic signature on a petition.
    https://www.change.org/p/new-zealand...Ol_rjFVVng6N1E

    Rouxle Le Roux had been drinking and smoking marijuana on the night she got behind the wheel of a car and crashed into 15-year-old Nathan Kraatskow.

    Le Roux was on her learner's licence. She and her friends didn't stop. They left the teen at the scene on Auckland's North Shore's Oteha Valley Rd, where he later died of his injuries.


    While on bail Le Roux posted a photo to Instagram of her wearing an orange jumpsuit. She captioned the image "hide your children"
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    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-z...entencing.html

    We might need more info, so a Bing search brought up this. I don't know the credentials of the site, but there were other links.

    Condolences.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akirasho View Post
    The young girl was driving a Mercedes Benz after drinking wine and smoking pot. She hit the kid and her "friends" told her not to stop. She drove on and then switched seats with a "man" Sam to drive her home. Sam then drove back to the scene and saw the cops working on the boy. Her mother told her to get some rest and sleep it off. The next day her mother and the Sam went to a panel shop to get the car repaired and then took the 19yr old girl to the police (after the drgugs had left her body). They hired a QC to represent her and the lawyer earned her money keeping the little b*tch out of prison. They blamed her tough upbringing. yeah as if.... Golden rule applies in New Zealand as well. We also had weak assed judges too.

  4. #4
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    The problem here is that the only thing she can be convicted of is hit and run. In the US, that carries a lighter sentence than DWI. In light of that, this is an incentive for an intoxicated driver to leave the scene. By the time (and if) the police catch up with the driver, their BAC is below the legal limit.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    The problem here is that the only thing she can be convicted of is hit and run. In the US, that carries a lighter sentence than DWI. In light of that, this is an incentive for an intoxicated driver to leave the scene. By the time (and if) the police catch up with the driver, their BAC is below the legal limit.
    same in NZ. 150,000 signatures might get an appeal.

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    It's infuriating how leniently western nations treat traffic crimes. Recently, I met with the Platte County prosecuting attorney who flat out told me, "You will not get justice." She recently prosecuted a case in Cass County (where I got hit) where a 14-year-old boy was struck and killed by a negligent driver who then careened off the road and into someone's house. He received a meager 30 days in jail ONLY because he skipped town on his initial sentencing date. In other words, the judge would've given him zero jail time for murdering the kid.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
    It's infuriating how leniently western nations treat traffic crimes. Recently, I met with the Platte County prosecuting attorney who flat out told me, "You will not get justice." She recently prosecuted a case in Cass County (where I got hit) where a 14-year-old boy was struck and killed by a negligent driver who then careened off the road and into someone's house. He received a meager 30 days in jail ONLY because he skipped town on his initial sentencing date. In other words, the judge would've given him zero jail time for murdering the kid.
    Unfortunately, if the charges against the driver were only negligence, they could be then charged with manslaughter at best, not murder. Even that is a stretch because manslaughter implies that your intent was to hurt the victim, but not kill the victim.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    ...manslaughter implies that your intent was to hurt the victim, but not kill the victim.
    Involuntary manslaughter requires NO intent to hurt the victim. Or in legalese: Involuntary manslaughter often refers to unintentional homicide from criminally negligent or reckless conduct. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...r-32637-2.html

    DUI, speeding leading to loss of control, etc generally line up with involuntary manslaughter. Road rage and driving someone off the road, more likely voluntary manslaughter.
    .
    Stout beers under trees, please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by QuiQuaeQuod View Post
    Involuntary manslaughter requires NO intent to hurt the victim. Or in legalese: Involuntary manslaughter often refers to unintentional homicide from criminally negligent or reckless conduct. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...r-32637-2.html

    DUI, speeding leading to loss of control, etc generally line up with involuntary manslaughter. Road rage and driving someone off the road, more likely voluntary manslaughter.
    I stand corrected.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



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    I have no qualms signing it, but petitions typically carry the legal weight of a nastygram. The fact this is being appealed is the exception vice the norm. At this point the bereaved family's best hope is to sue the driver into the Stone Age for wrongful death.
    Ghurarmu shirkush’ agh azgushu. Zant ya apakurizak. Gűl-n’ anakhizak.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SauronHimself View Post
    I have no qualms signing it, but petitions typically carry the legal weight of a nastygram. The fact this is being appealed is the exception vice the norm. At this point the bereaved family's best hope is to sue the driver into the Stone Age for wrongful death.
    Yup. Civil cases are easier to win than criminal cases. In a criminal case, you need to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and you need to have the decision unanimous. In a civil case, you only need to prove liability with prepondernace of evidence with a 5 out of 6 majority of jurors.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SauronHimself View Post
    I have no qualms signing it, but petitions typically carry the legal weight of a nastygram. The fact this is being appealed is the exception vice the norm. At this point the bereaved family's best hope is to sue the driver into the Stone Age for wrongful death.
    the Crown, ie prosecutors, won't appeal the sentence. 170,000 signatures but they have reviewed it and decided there is no legal ground to appeal. Life is cheap in New Zealand. Ride safe everyone, thanks.

    no civil suits in New Zealand so no chance to sue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    the Crown, ie prosecutors, won't appeal the sentence. 170,000 signatures but they have reviewed it and decided there is no legal ground to appeal. Life is cheap in New Zealand. Ride safe everyone, thanks.

    no civil suits in New Zealand so no chance to sue.
    Laws around the world can be a fickle *****. Here in the US, Congress has just passed crime reform which is needed but we still don't know the longterm ramifications.

    From a moral POV, anyone who knowingly or through knowing negligence, kills someone, should at least be charged with murder. From a legal point of view, ever try sticking your hand into a tank of slime covered eels and pulling one out?

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    so to conclude this thread.. killing a cyclist is as easy as an accident. Next time anyone wants to kill a person, give him a bike, encourage him to ride, then accidentally back into him while sending a text. Sure you'll get a ticket for operating a cellphone while driving, but that's a small price to pay for a human life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    so to conclude this thread.. killing a cyclist is as easy as an accident. Next time anyone wants to kill a person, give him a bike, encourage him to ride, then accidentally back into him while sending a text. Sure you'll get a ticket for operating a cellphone while driving, but that's a small price to pay for a human life.
    One of our local legislators wants to double fines for passing a "red flashing" skool bus because that's how a legislator's mind works. They tend to obsess on the barn door while the horse trots down the lane.


    Recertifying drivers every few years with meaningful parameters would cost more money than the lives saved so we tolerate limited insanity not unlike gun laws (stops now b4 I go all politically).

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akirasho View Post
    One of our local legislators wants to double fines for passing a "red flashing" skool bus because that's how a legislator's mind works. They tend to obsess on the barn door while the horse trots down the lane.


    Recertifying drivers every few years with meaningful parameters would cost more money than the lives saved so we tolerate limited insanity not unlike gun laws (stops now b4 I go all politically).
    Some states have a mandatory license suspension for passing a school bus with red lights. And I know NY State has a license suspension for 2 work zone speeding tickets.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Some states have a mandatory license suspension for passing a school bus with red lights. And I know NY State has a license suspension for 2 work zone speeding tickets.
    I think a good many Americans see their cars as a Right and assume that that extends to operation, but wouldn't it be something that if sensors detected you committing a FUBAR, that the car could be safely sequestered ala "Minority Report"? Course, locally, Red Light traffic cameras have been deemed illegal unless an officer is there at the same time to issue a citation.. fickle fickle fickle.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akirasho View Post
    I think a good many Americans see their cars as a Right and assume that that extends to operation, but wouldn't it be something that if sensors detected you committing a FUBAR, that the car could be safely sequestered ala "Minority Report"? Course, locally, Red Light traffic cameras have been deemed illegal unless an officer is there at the same time to issue a citation.. fickle fickle fickle.
    Newer cars' computers have been used in determining liability in crashes where the defendant claimed he was gojng much slower than he actually was.

    Red light camaras illegal? Though most people won't take off a day of work to contest the ticket. Being a no-points ticket and a relatively small fine helps keeps too many people from contesting these.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Newer cars' computers have been used in determining liability in crashes where the defendant claimed he was gojng much slower than he actually was.

    Red light camaras illegal? Though most people won't take off a day of work to contest the ticket. Being a no-points ticket and a relatively small fine helps keeps too many people from contesting these.
    Worlds colliding.

    In many ways, the issue of Red Light cameras in Ohio is linked to data that may be stored by newer cars. Admissibility.


    Can this data which is still relatively new tech, survive legal definition of reliable (could other parameters create false data. could data be altered without detection?")


    Part of the issue of Red Light cammies in Ohio (speed cameras are different - fickle) is due process. As initially set up, legalists argued a person was guilty until proven innocent with that burden falling on the accused.


    In the past, technology has been thwarted by some process or another. Seat belt interlock with ignition is faily easy to bypass. A breathalyzer in all cars kinda pointed towards guilty until you (or a sober source) blow.


    OTOH, we can app the hell out of your phone.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akirasho View Post
    Worlds colliding.

    In many ways, the issue of Red Light cameras in Ohio is linked to data that may be stored by newer cars. Admissibility.


    Can this data which is still relatively new tech, survive legal definition of reliable (could other parameters create false data. could data be altered without detection?")


    Part of the issue of Red Light cammies in Ohio (speed cameras are different - fickle) is due process. As initially set up, legalists argued a person was guilty until proven innocent with that burden falling on the accused.
    I was videoed by a red light cam once. I made a right turn rolling stop on red. I received a letter in the mail with a link to watch the video. Freaky! Technicality, yes, but I broke the law, plain and simple. $85 and no points was not worth taking a day off work to contest this.

    Keep in mind that in some states, moving violations are civil offenses, not criminal. Even if they are considered criminal, how is this a matter of guilty until proven innocent? You are not guilty until you either plead guilty or are proven guilty. Up until that point, you are charged with an offense, but are not guilty.

    Now you may argue that a red light cam cannot in itself be a witness. However, a police officer viewing a video can indeed be a witness.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post

    Now you may argue that a red light cam cannot in itself be a witness. However, a police officer viewing a video can indeed be a witness.

    Yep. I'm not one of the legalists here, but this is one of the arguments that have followed these cameras for over 20 years of on again and off again use across the State (mostly in larger urban areas with additional questions about "kickbacks" for camera makers). Current law says that it's not enough that a cop witness a video. Dunno if it would make a difference if it were live feed videos). And this does not even begin to address the use of license plate readers. But I feel that I have inadvertently hijacked a thread!!!

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    One reason why video may not be enough is if it can't get the driver's face on camera. Police have to establish who operated the vehicle in order to prosecute. This is unless, of course, the state you're in has strict liability where the registered owner of the vehicle is guilty so long as their plate is captured violating the law.
    Ghurarmu shirkush’ agh azgushu. Zant ya apakurizak. Gűl-n’ anakhizak.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SauronHimself View Post
    One reason why video may not be enough is if it can't get the driver's face on camera. Police have to establish who operated the vehicle in order to prosecute. This is unless, of course, the state you're in has strict liability where the registered owner of the vehicle is guilty so long as their plate is captured violating the law.
    Video cam tickets are generally treated the same way as parking tickets. You don't know who the driver is with those either, but the registered driver is responsible.

    But since the camera doesn't know who was actually driving the vehicle, no points can be issued.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akirasho View Post
    One of our local legislators wants to double fines for passing a "red flashing" skool bus because that's how a legislator's mind works. They tend to obsess on the barn door while the horse trots down the lane.


    Recertifying drivers every few years with meaningful parameters would cost more money than the lives saved so we tolerate limited insanity not unlike gun laws (stops now b4 I go all politically).
    I'm a little confused. How do you propose stopping folks from illegally passing school busses? Even n onboard security guard with a grenade launcher and quick reflexes would not likely be able to stop these people.

    On the other hand, a year in jail would stop them for a year.

    Consider that it's the insane people not the insane laws that kill. But you are correct that if you pass laws to make it illegal to kill people, insane people will find something else to do with their time. I wonder why nobody's thought of that?
    Last edited by SwiftSolo; 12-21-2018 at 02:37 PM.

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