Power Increase
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Thread: Power Increase

  1. #1

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    Power Increase

    Can anyone give me some light about numbers on power increase over certain period of time? (like a 4 week block or so). I mean, what % of power increase is to be obtained and in what period of time so that I can consider that my training is on the right track?

    Letīs say I do 3 x 15 min intervals at LTreshold, with 250 Watts Avg on each one. If I repeat the same workout weekly, should the numbers be better the next time?, or at least after a short period of regeneration (4th week of lower intensity training)?, if so, what numbers should be considered as good?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-2win
    Can anyone give me some light about numbers on power increase over certain period of time? (like a 4 week block or so). I mean, what % of power increase is to be obtained and in what period of time so that I can consider that my training is on the right track?

    Letīs say I do 3 x 15 min intervals at LTreshold, with 250 Watts Avg on each one. If I repeat the same workout weekly, should the numbers be better the next time?, or at least after a short period of regeneration (4th week of lower intensity training)?, if so, what numbers should be considered as good?
    The improvement depends on may factors including how long you've been training (as in how many years) and your current state of fitness. That said, Andy Coggan says he raises power on his 2x20' LT intervals every 2 weeks by either 5 or 10% (sorry I can't remember which one, I know this is a big range) and continues for about 12 weeks.

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    Thats debatable

    Andy Coggan is heroic in examining power. But those numbers are unrealistic. heres what to do to increase your power with a meter.

    First do a CP30. You need this exact number for your LT power. No guesses. 30 minutes all out use average power. No holding back is very imperative. Do it when well rested.

    Now lets say your CP30 is 250watts. Then do your 2x20 workouts at 255-260 with a cadence of 60-75 rpm

    This workout is to help many systems. Aerobic, muscle endurance, power etc

    Make sure you do NOT do them on rest weeks and only do them when timing is right so you can recover adequately

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    Debatable - not.

    Quote Originally Posted by CARBON110
    Andy Coggan is heroic in examining power. But those numbers are unrealistic. heres what to do to increase your power with a meter.

    First do a CP30. You need this exact number for your LT power. No guesses. 30 minutes all out use average power. No holding back is very imperative. Do it when well rested.

    Now lets say your CP30 is 250watts. Then do your 2x20 workouts at 255-260 with a cadence of 60-75 rpm

    This workout is to help many systems. Aerobic, muscle endurance, power etc

    Make sure you do NOT do them on rest weeks and only do them when timing is right so you can recover adequately
    What's debatable, That improvement in LT depends on current fitness and training history - I think this has been proved over and over again. The rate of increase for an untrained individual will be very different from one who is partially trained and one who is optimally trained.

    That Andy Coggan says he does 12 weeks of 2x20' increasing power every 2 weeks? You can search the wattage archives and find that very statement repeated often.

    That he increases power by 5 or 10%? Again search the wattage archives this is exactly what he says. The question of 5 or 10% is only my failure to remember which it is. Coggan says it is one or the other.

    The qustion was what is a reasonable rate of increase for LT with training. A question I notice you failed to answer in your post. No one asked about a training plan to increase LT.

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    wow!

    I will assume your having a bad day and not totally socially inept. I read the topica forum as much as anyone and Andy C. has set many precedents but that doesn't exactly mean they are applicable to everyone so revise your pompous petulant tone. No need to get pugilistic over power discussions its a forum remember. Secondly since I am obssessed with power and given the limit of information given from the original author I felt comfortable offering the workout. Certainly for someone not in fine form the gains will be greater in a shorter time period but Coggan hardly falls under those pretenses

    I might add a workout for yourself asgelle, if you have the tendency to respond to people in an inapporpriate manner perhaps you might consider dropping your training hours and substituting therapy in their place =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by CARBON110
    I will assume your having a bad day and not totally socially inept. I read the topica forum as much as anyone and Andy C. has set many precedents but that doesn't exactly mean they are applicable to everyone so revise your pompous petulant tone. No need to get pugilistic over power discussions its a forum remember. Secondly since I am obssessed with power and given the limit of information given from the original author I felt comfortable offering the workout. Certainly for someone not in fine form the gains will be greater in a shorter time period but Coggan hardly falls under those pretenses

    I might add a workout for yourself asgelle, if you have the tendency to respond to people in an inapporpriate manner perhaps you might consider dropping your training hours and substituting therapy in their place =)
    It's interesting that you call me socially inept and my post inappropriate when you're the one making ad hominem comments while I merely quoted your post and responded to each point in turn.

    In any case, You say an increase in LT power of 5% every 2 weeks for 12 weeks for a total of 30% is unrealistic. In what way do you mean? Are you saying that I'm not quoting Coggan correctly, that Coggan is not telling the truth about his workouts, or that these numbers don't apply to the OP? If the latter, note that I didn't say they did; only that these are the numbers Coggan observes.

    Finally, if you believe these numbers are unrealistic, you must have some idea of what a realistic set would be.

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    yeah.....

    Do you ah yahoo? Have you considered using Decaf?

    You said-
    1) """"You say an increase in LT power of 5% every 2 weeks for 12 weeks for a total of 30% is unrealistic"""""
    My response-
    An increase in LT by 5% IS possible every two weeks for 12 weeks certainly. If your a developing rider it is absolutely possible. Those at the advent of specific training gain immense fitness very quickly. Is it possible for a seasoned rider to gain 5%. Sure to an extent depending and debatable as to what part of the training session the rider is in. For example if your peak is in June then between March and June it will be HARD to maintain a 5% increase consistantly for 12 weeks especially the last 2-3 weeks. But its possible for seasoned riders to acomplish but unlikely for most. If this is not explicit enough let me know

    You said-
    2) """""Are you saying that I'm not quoting Coggan correctly, that Coggan is not telling the truth about his workouts""""
    My response-
    No that is not what I am saying. I use many of Coggans formulas for my own trianing. It is possible you are misquoting him though since you said you were unsure yourself

    You said-
    3) """"""Finally, if you believe these numbers are unrealistic, you must have some idea of what a realistic set would be""""""
    My response-
    Broad statements required to answer a question like this are not applicable and are highly debatable since they change from rider to rider. It is like asking "what are the average watts for a cat 3 rider?" No one can answer that but we can compare similar riders who are at the same level,area,time of training and are strving for similar goals. The best thing to use your PM for is to compare your own workouts to yourself. So I can compare where I was last year this time of the year by doing the same tests I did before under similar conditions. There are many formulas that explain the average weight to power ratio of different cat riders. But that isn't what we are talking about here.

    People often ask for advice here on training and do not provide any info about what kind of rider they are. So perhaps if we had some details like: CP30 #,weight of the rider,average hours per week,age,the kind of power meter being used,goals and plan for season,etc etc we could make a better guess. If you brought me a hypotheetical question providing these details THEN you can ask me if its possible to acheive 5% LT increase for 12 weeks straight.

    YAAaaaAAaa HooOOOooOOOoOOOo =)

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    I think the correct number is 5W every two weeks. If your second interval is more than 10W less than the first, you've gone too hard.

    I did it a little different. The first 30W or so were quick but after that, I was incrementing it 1W/week with 2 workouts per week. One workout per week really is only enough for maintenance.

    Quote Originally Posted by CARBON110
    First do a CP30. You need this exact number for your LT power. No guesses. 30 minutes all out use average power. No holding back is very imperative. Do it when well rested.

    Now lets say your CP30 is 250watts. Then do your 2x20 workouts at 255-260 with a cadence of 60-75 rpm

    This workout is to help many systems. Aerobic, muscle endurance, power etc
    Uh, those three sound like different names for the same thing.

    If you're not going to do 30 min intervals, there's no point in doing a P30. Training is testing and testing is training. Increase the power incrementally while trying to minimize variations in average power amongst the intervals. If you hit a plateau, change something.

    Unless the suggested CP30 test is also done at 60-75 rpm, I don't think anyone's going to be able to do 2x20 at a higher power output at 60-75 rpm. Chances are they won't even be able to ride in level 4 which compromises the adaptations you would expect from L4 work. After a few weeks, one's power output at 60-75 rpms might begin to approach the power output at a self-selected cadence but those weeks are wasted unless specifically preparing for an HCTT. On flat terrain, 60-75 rpm is a suboptimal cadence for just about everyone. Climbing would be a different matter.

  9. #9
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    """""Unless the suggested CP30 test is also done at 60-75 rpm, I don't think anyone's going to be able to do 2x20 at a higher power output at 60-75 rpm. Chances are they won't even be able to ride in level 4 which compromises the adaptations you would expect from L4 work. After a few weeks, one's power output at 60-75 rpms might begin to approach the power output at a self-selected cadence but those weeks are wasted unless specifically preparing for an HCTT. On flat terrain, 60-75 rpm is a suboptimal cadence for just about everyone. Climbing would be a different matter."""""""

    Squint the idea is to increase your watts slowly and go 20minutes at the increased wattage to build muscle endurance and power. I can ride 2x20minutes at an extra 5-10 watts over my CP30 and maintain everything except a slightly lower rpm the second interval. I only suggested 60-75 rpm so you use a big gear and it is easier to maintain the watts consistantly. This makes crits incredibly easier by using higher cadence in the crits and on power climbs

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    Quote Originally Posted by CARBON110
    You said-
    3) """"""Finally, if you believe these numbers are unrealistic, you must have some idea of what a realistic set would be""""""
    My response-
    Broad statements required to answer a question like this are not applicable and are highly debatable since they change from rider to rider. It is like asking "what are the average watts for a cat 3 rider?" No one can answer that but we can compare similar riders who are at the same level,area,time of training and are strving for similar goals.
    You totally missed the point of my original post. I was careful to say that improvement depends on many factors but for one individual, these are the numbers. If you read my original post, you'll see I never made a broad statement, I didn't say these numbers apply to anyone other than the individual who generated them. To use your analogy, it like answering the question of what is the average watts for a Cat 3 by saying "that depends on many things, but this one rider averages X wattts."

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    Riigghhht

    Exactly how did I miss the point? If anything I affirmed that for perhaps the one rider, Coggan anything is possible. Andy Coggan is a cut above the rest. I can hope you understand how your post is suggestive and fallacious to the OP. Perhaps you could be more explicit in the future since you yourself seem to demand it

    Think about the Decaf =))

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    Thanks

    To be honest with you all and with myself I donīt see me riding 2x20 at + - 300 Watts in a short amount of time since now I am in 250-260 (I weight 170 lbs and ride at the time 14 hrs weekly and trying to peak at early July, this only to give the info I should have given before). Thanks to you all, I appreciate a lot responding to my post. I was really breaking my head and legs on this one.

    I think that giving my current fitness, the numbers Squint is posting are more likely to fit me. One thing I have noticed, you guys have talked about a cadence of 60-75 RPM and I am currently doing this workout at 90 RPM. Have I been screwing it?

  13. #13
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    The basic principles of training are overload and specificity. Unless you do a lot of long, uphill grinds or are specificially preparing for a hill climb time trial.

    You should use your powermeter to record race data (if you have a powermeter that's portable). Then you have data on power and cadence from which pedal force and velocity can be calculated for an even more in-depth analysis. You'll be able to see that your races have a lot of surges of X seconds at Y watts with Z seconds of rest at a lower power output. You'll find that people attack short climbs and it takes 400W for one minute to stay with them, etc. Then you tailor your training to reflect the demands of racing. That's specificity.

    At this stage, I would recommend doing 2x20s at the cadence you would see in events. After you've done a few weeks and plateaued then you can experiment, as I did last week. At ~65 rpm, I was doing about 40W less than I would at my normal cadence. At ~72 rpm, the penalty was about 30-35W. That puts me in Level 3 and changes the workout. There's probably less recruitment of fast twitch fibers and less stimuli for left ventricle hypertrophy, increased mitochondrial volume/enzymes, and capillary formation. All those are responses to the prolonged energy crisis that results from Level 4 training.

    This low cadence training does do one thing, probably some neuromuscular adaptation, so that at least for a short time afterwards, pedaling feels easy. After a doing a lot of these workouts, one's power output at low RPMs might begin to approach what it would be at your optimum cadence.

    I got up to 2x20 at 280, 280 (or 286, 278 if I go harder on the first one) within 3-4 months, riding ~6 hrs per week. I was down to 148 lbs before my last race. I never did any low cadence stuff back then so I would say it's not critically important.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1-2win
    To be honest with you all and with myself I donīt see me riding 2x20 at + - 300 Watts in a short amount of time since now I am in 250-260 (I weight 170 lbs and ride at the time 14 hrs weekly and trying to peak at early July, this only to give the info I should have given before). Thanks to you all, I appreciate a lot responding to my post. I was really breaking my head and legs on this one.

    I think that giving my current fitness, the numbers Squint is posting are more likely to fit me. One thing I have noticed, you guys have talked about a cadence of 60-75 RPM and I am currently doing this workout at 90 RPM. Have I been screwing it?

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    why low rpms

    You should not be using high rpms when doing these kind of intervals.The reason is to build muscle endurance,strength and power. You can only do this with low cadence. High cadence drills should be done mostly with little/light effort. If you do these LT intervals at low cadence in big gears you will find it easier to maintain speed,high cadence and low HR when in competition.

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    Not "high" cadence but the cadences you would see during a race.

    Like I said before, training "muscle endurance" and power are the same thing. Even when riding at low cadence, the forces aren't that great. In fact, they're about 1/3 what you see in racing (200 N vs. 5-600 N). Regular 2x20s are about 160 N.

    Strength and power are two different things. There's little hypertrophy of Type 1 fibers from aerobic exercise. If you want to increase leg muscle strength, lift weights.

    What do you see most in your races? Long, uphill grinds with few accelerations or lots of short accelerations closing gaps and around corners? Guess what circumstances result in the highest pedal forces in a race.

    Quote Originally Posted by CARBON110
    You should not be using high rpms when doing these kind of intervals.The reason is to build muscle endurance,strength and power. You can only do this with low cadence. High cadence drills should be done mostly with little/light effort. If you do these LT intervals at low cadence in big gears you will find it easier to maintain speed,high cadence and low HR when in competition.

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    ahh not my experience

    That doesn't sound right to me at all. I use my SRM in races all the time but I don't try to mimic the field undulations unless I'm doing short power intervals. Low cadence is better for specific training since it is like doing weights.It increase and builds muscle endurance and power. Not to mention you can get specific on using last seasons or last weeks crit or hill climb or a hill in a race by studing the power required to get over the hill in x amount of time but you CAN NOT mimic the race period. Specific training allows you to build efficient aerobic power and fitness to cope with and exceed the demands of races but fields have different moods and drafting or a break away or whatever can only be trained for by doing specific training but you CAN'T train to mimic a race. That's idiotic.

    Not sure if that is what you were suggesting so maybe I misunderstood you. Races require as much surge and closing gaps as break aways and power climbing so unless your targeting only one kind of racing then what the hell are talking about there?

    By the way if your showing less watts on a lower cadence in a bigger gear at 65rpms it is your fitness thats suffering from something. You may be able to produce more watts with higher cadence in competition but that isn't necesarily what your aiming for in the above discussed workouts.

    Keep it simple by the way, no need to discuss the details of the capillaries when aiming for the correct workout as basic as a 2x20 at a questionable cadence LOL.

    You can find out how many kilojules a race may require and add that information to your traiing but your going to be better off isolating your performance areas, perfecting them one at a time without neglecting your limiters. Your level 3 workjouts etc are not relevant to the discussion or the original question. Lower cadence wins over high cadence when training for increased power out put months before a peak period. Finessing this to the correct cadence for maximum speed is perfected closer to peak when attempting to recreate a TT. Otherwise in race cadence is going to vary highly and your not going to be peddling 100% of the time regardless.

    I am not suggesting low cadence is better. It isn't unless your training in a 2x20. In a race high cadence wins in my opnion
    Last edited by CARBON110; 05-05-2004 at 03:25 PM.

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