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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post
    Many of those working class property owners just don't have time to advocate possible solutions for homeless issues. Many of them work a full day at a job they probably don't care for to provide a certain standard of living for their families, only to have that threatened (in their eyes) by the side-effects of having homeless in close proximity. Why should I advocate for you when you threaten those close to me?

    Are these working class the problem? To be honest, I side with them. I have too many friends that had their businesses robbed and their livelihoods threatened by the homeless. I have far too many friends that had their bikes stolen by the homeless. I've seen far too much of our public land taken over by the homeless, to the point it is unusable by law-abiding citizens. These working class people are pissed. They're equally on the political/ideological divide.

    I don't have a solution, because that would indicate a single root cause. All I know is the standards for basic civility are flat out gone. The truly needy among the homeless are getting lumped in with the predatory, because the bad apples have lowered the perception and behavioral norms of the group.

    No agency or community was ready for the opioid crisis and the havoc it has raised on infrastructure and systems. Add in the financial crisis of a decade ago and the after-effects, and you have this self-perpetuating mess we're in now. A few more bucks for mental illness counseling ain't going to do it, nor is a few developments of free housing for addicts, nor is packing them all off to jail. What is is going to take is a whole lot of money thrown in a whole lot of directions to hit at as many root causes as possible. There isn't the political will to do it, so it isn't going to happen.

    Sorry, I'd love to find an answer for people like Rebecca Twigg, who most people would give two craps about if she wasn't a formerly-famous cyclist. I'd love to find the answer to any number of people I'm related to that (thanks to FASD and other issues) seem to toss every advantage they're given in the trash as soon as they can. I'd love to find the answer for the kids in government care with drug and alcohol-fried brains because their parents were too self-serving to pull their heads out before it was too late. I've been down that road of trying to help others clean up their lives (probably like Ms Twigg's family) and been burned each and every time, robbing my own family of resources. My working class desire for advocacy is just about gone.

    The divide between the haves and the have-nots is ever widening.
    I appreciate your perspective and wouldn’t dare to discount your experience... But no. Providing decent, safe and sanitary shelter is really pretty cheap in any broader analysis. Homelessness is easy peasy to fix and not expensive at all. You can build in MICA, substance abuse and psychiatric services, most of which already exist, you just partner with existing services. Th problems they are creating locally are largely caused by policy decisions more globally. Blaming the victim will not help the working class business owner or the person sleeping outside. This is a uniquely USA problem in the global north. I fully understand that some people crap on your truly genuine efforts to help. In some cases they can’t control their own behavior. In some cases, well... dope sick is really just that bad... And sometimes, people are *******s. But they shouldn’t die of exposure because of any of those conditions. At least not in my mind or my world. The sticky wicket with homeless folks is that everyone is completely unique, and that requires unique and creative approaches... But shelter? Basic safety? Easy as hell.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  2. #52
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    There is a "homeless" guy living in an RV parked along the road near where I work. The RV moves from one end of the block to the other every weekend so as to avoid being impounded for parking violations.

    He has a very large dog that he ties to a tree nearby. The dog lays in the middle of the sidewalk, making it unpassable for normal pedestrian use (it's parked along the only sidewalk leading to a small shopping center where many people walk to lunch).

    On the side of the RV, spray painted in big bold letters, are the words "YOU WISH YOU WERE US!".

    This guy is content with his situation, being dependant on social services, to the point that he thinks the working stiffs walking by should be envious.

    The problem with giving this person a free home, is that he would gladly take it, and never make an effort to get a job, get cleaned up, and get away from being dependant on social services.

    I have a lot of compassion for people who have medical issues (mental or otherwise) and cannot support themselves, or are victims of abuse or crime. I have zero compassion for lazy asses who are content to collect benefits (that they've likely never contributed to) while living in an RV on the side of the road

    How do you differentiate between those who are legitimately in need, and those who are just too lazy to work? I think that nut has to be cracked before the real problems can be solved.

  3. #53
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    Too lazy to work? Why should you care? Other than the guy being a bit rude by imposing his unsightly presence on the street as you describe, I hardly think his 'work ethic' is a problem. The world is full of people who don't work, inherited a ton of money, saved up and retired ('FIREd') themselves in their 30s, choose the 'vanlife' and live off meagre youtube earnings, not to mention actual retired folks, folks who spend 14 years in university, etc.

    Sounds like the vanlife guy isn't seeking 'sympathy' he just needs to learn some manners about where to park the van imho. More power to him for wasting less of his precious time on this earth doing a hateful job for someone else! There are surely a lot of folks wasting too much of their time in the rat race, working 60 + hour weeks and no vacation for decades on end , blind to the many other choices they could have by social pressures and cultural brainwashing - That's who deserves sympathy and in need of intervention.

    I don't consider those vanlifers as 'homeless' but instead merely non-conforming to the cultural norms that the Archie Bunkers and American Puritans of the world try to impose on others. It's ain't for me and I find RVs a miserable place to live in, but more power to those who do like it.
    Last edited by BCSaltchucker; 04-29-2019 at 06:53 PM.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    I appreciate your perspective and wouldn’t dare to discount your experience... But no. Providing decent, safe and sanitary shelter is really pretty cheap in any broader analysis. Homelessness is easy peasy to fix and not expensive at all. You can build in MICA, substance abuse and psychiatric services, most of which already exist, you just partner with existing services. Th problems they are creating locally are largely caused by policy decisions more globally. Blaming the victim will not help the working class business owner or the person sleeping outside. This is a uniquely USA problem in the global north. I fully understand that some people crap on your truly genuine efforts to help. In some cases they can’t control their own behavior. In some cases, well... dope sick is really just that bad... And sometimes, people are *******s. But they shouldn’t die of exposure because of any of those conditions. At least not in my mind or my world. The sticky wicket with homeless folks is that everyone is completely unique, and that requires unique and creative approaches... But shelter? Basic safety? Easy as hell.
    Unless there is a national solution (which there is no political viable will for) to end the homeless situation, local and regional "solutions" will continue to be overwhelmed. The homeless migrate to where the pickings are easiest. Problem is, there isn't a problem that federal intervention can't make worse. And here we are...

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    Too lazy to work? Why should you care? Other than the guy being a bit rude by imposing his unsightly presence on the street as you describe, I hardly think his 'work ethic' is a problem. The world is full of people who don't work, inherited a ton of money, saved up and retired ('FIREd') themselves in their 30s, choose the 'vanlife' and live off meagre youtube earnings, not to mention actual retired folks, folks who spend 14 years in university, etc.

    Sounds like the vanlife guy isn't seeking 'sympathy' he just needs to learn some manners about where to park the van imho. More power to him for wasting less of his precious time on this earth doing a hateful job for someone else! There are surely a lot of folks wasting too much of their time in the rat race, working 60 + hour weeks and no vacation for decades on end , blind to the many other choices they could have by social pressures and cultural brainwashing - That's who deserves sympathy and in need of intervention.

    I don't consider those vanlifers as 'homeless' but instead merely non-conforming to the cultural norms that the Archie Bunkers and American Puritans of the world try to impose on others. It's ain't for me and I find RVs a miserable place to live in, but more power to those who do like it.
    This is an uh, interesting take
    Joe Louis had come out of retirement to fight Rocky Marciano and he was seventy six years old. Joe Louis is always lying about his age. He lied about his age all the time. One time Frank Sinatra came in here and sat in this chair. I said Frank 'you hang out with Joe Louis, just between me and you, how old is Joe Louis.' You know what Frank told me, he said 'hey, Joe Louis is 137 years old.' 137 years old!!

    Fronting like you're on the cutting edge of Red Lobster news

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    Too lazy to work? Why should you care? Other than the guy being a bit rude by imposing his unsightly presence on the street as you describe, I hardly think his 'work ethic' is a problem. The world is full of people who don't work, inherited a ton of money, saved up and retired ('FIREd') themselves in their 30s, choose the 'vanlife' and live off meagre youtube earnings, not to mention actual retired folks, folks who spend 14 years in university, etc.

    Sounds like the vanlife guy isn't seeking 'sympathy' he just needs to learn some manners about where to park the van imho. More power to him for wasting less of his precious time on this earth doing a hateful job for someone else! There are surely a lot of folks wasting too much of their time in the rat race, working 60 + hour weeks and no vacation for decades on end , blind to the many other choices they could have by social pressures and cultural brainwashing - That's who deserves sympathy and in need of intervention.

    I don't consider those vanlifers as 'homeless' but instead merely non-conforming to the cultural norms that the Archie Bunkers and American Puritans of the world try to impose on others. It's ain't for me and I find RVs a miserable place to live in, but more power to those who do like it.
    the conversation should be in the political forum probably but I have to say an able bodied person mooching off social services intended for those that have legitimate issues is a problem for me - it diverts funds that those who are or have worked prior to retiring have paid in to taxes and social security etc, it's not free money its my money. I have a huge problem with these sponges, they should be kicked off those benefits if they are using them and be truly self sufficient if that's the lifestyle choice they settle on. I have no problem with those that have legitimate needs getting help from my hard earned dollars.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    the conversation should be in the political forum probably but I have to say an able bodied person mooching off social services intended for those that have legitimate issues is a problem for me - it diverts funds that those who are or have worked prior to retiring have paid in to taxes and social security etc, it's not free money its my money. I have a huge problem with these sponges, they should be kicked off those benefits if they are using them and be truly self sufficient if that's the lifestyle choice they settle on. I have no problem with those that have legitimate needs getting help from my hard earned dollars.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Srode again.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    the conversation should be in the political forum probably but I have to say an able bodied person mooching off social services intended for those that have legitimate issues is a problem for me - it diverts funds that those who are or have worked prior to retiring have paid in to taxes and social security etc, it's not free money its my money. I have a huge problem with these sponges, they should be kicked off those benefits if they are using them and be truly self sufficient if that's the lifestyle choice they settle on. I have no problem with those that have legitimate needs getting help from my hard earned dollars.
    Define "able bodied" or "legitimate". Some disabilities are not fully understood. There is a large gray area around mental illnesses.

    Yes, there are moochers, but in the grand scheme of things, they are a small minority of people who use social services contrary to popular belief.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Define "able bodied" or "legitimate".
    Better yet, write a legal definition that is clear and concise, easy to identify and enforce. Then we can talk, case by case. Until then I am much less concerned about individuals abusing the system (most of which need help navigating the system...from my experience) vs corporate welfare (and there we go, off to PO to continue)

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Define "able bodied" or "legitimate". Some disabilities are not fully understood. There is a large gray area around mental illnesses.

    Yes, there are moochers, but in the grand scheme of things, they are a small minority of people who use social services contrary to popular belief.
    I don't know what the percentage is, just taking exception to the person described who was 'choosing' to utilize social services instead of working and too lazy to work. I leave the legal descriptions to those better skilled to do that kind of work, but I think my intent was clear - is a person can work they should be working if work is available not living on social services that were created to help people with real problems.
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    I don't know what the percentage is, just taking exception to the person described who was 'choosing' to utilize social services instead of working and too lazy to work. I leave the legal descriptions to those better skilled to do that kind of work, but I think my intent was clear - is a person can work they should be working if work is available not living on social services that were created to help people with real problems.
    So... The original systems assumed abuse rates around 30%. They have historically been below 10%. The amount of money in a year involved in abuse of social services couldn’t buy a bucket of nuts and bolts for an F-15. So, every “social service” has eligibility determinations that are really well defined. Yes, with legal definitions and all. The only benefit that has presumptive eligibility is pre-natal Medicaid. If you are pregnant then and meet the income and asset tests you get the benefit. Otherwise, Medicaid is really hard to get. I don’t see much abuse at all and I work with every aspect of the social service system. I see some, but it’s really rare. There are benefits that rely on other, very stringent, determinations, like if you have Medicaid you are also eligible... As for housing, it is not an entitlement benefit. It is catch as cat can. You are never entitled to decent, safe and sanitary housing in this country. We just let people die from exposure. In my case, these aren’t data points, they are actual people that I know. Lots of vets and lots of HIV. The HIV folks die on the first cold night or soon thereafter from complications.

    FWIW, there are infinitely more people needing help that can’t get it due to eligibility obstacles than there are people scamming the system. Remember, in the USA you have no right to survival. Go spend a few days in a shelter and then come back and tell us people are there because they are lazy. Just be careful not to bring the bed bugs back into your house.

    The judgmental attitudes in this thread inform policy and go a long way to killing thousands and thousands of people every year.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
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    So... The original systems assumed abuse rates around 30%. They have historically been below 10%. The amount of money in a year involved in abuse of social services couldn’t buy a bucket of nuts and bolts for an F-15. So, every “social service” has eligibility determinations that are really well defined. Yes, with legal definitions and all. The only benefit that has presumptive eligibility is pre-natal Medicaid. If you are pregnant then and meet the income and asset tests you get the benefit. Otherwise, Medicaid is really hard to get. I don’t see much abuse at all and I work with every aspect of the social service system. I see some, but it’s really rare. There are benefits that rely on other, very stringent, determinations, like if you have Medicaid you are also eligible... As for housing, it is not an entitlement benefit. It is catch as cat can. You are never entitled to decent, safe and sanitary housing in this country. We just let people die from exposure. In my case, these aren’t data points, they are actual people that I know. Lots of vets and lots of HIV. The HIV folks die on the first cold night or soon thereafter from complications.

    FWIW, there are infinitely more people needing help that can’t get it due to eligibility obstacles than there are people scamming the system. Remember, in the USA you have no right to survival. Go spend a few days in a shelter and then come back and tell us people are there because they are lazy. Just be careful not to bring the bed bugs back into your house.

    The judgmental attitudes in this thread inform policy and go a long way to killing thousands and thousands of people every year.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to PBL450 again.


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    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
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    So... The original systems assumed abuse rates around 30%. They have historically been below 10%. The amount of money in a year involved in abuse of social services couldn’t buy a bucket of nuts and bolts for an F-15. So, every “social service” has eligibility determinations that are really well defined. Yes, with legal definitions and all. The only benefit that has presumptive eligibility is pre-natal Medicaid. If you are pregnant then and meet the income and asset tests you get the benefit. Otherwise, Medicaid is really hard to get. I don’t see much abuse at all and I work with every aspect of the social service system. I see some, but it’s really rare. There are benefits that rely on other, very stringent, determinations, like if you have Medicaid you are also eligible... As for housing, it is not an entitlement benefit. It is catch as cat can. You are never entitled to decent, safe and sanitary housing in this country. We just let people die from exposure. In my case, these aren’t data points, they are actual people that I know. Lots of vets and lots of HIV. The HIV folks die on the first cold night or soon thereafter from complications.

    FWIW, there are infinitely more people needing help that can’t get it due to eligibility obstacles than there are people scamming the system. Remember, in the USA you have no right to survival. Go spend a few days in a shelter and then come back and tell us people are there because they are lazy. Just be careful not to bring the bed bugs back into your house.

    The judgmental attitudes in this thread inform policy and go a long way to killing thousands and thousands of people every year.
    I don't disagree, remember I am not the person who characterized the person as lazy and choosing to use social benefits instead of working, that was Finx and my comments were based on that being a correct characterization. I don't think those benefits should be used for people like that when there are others that really need them and can't get them, so sounds like we agree?
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    the conversation should be in the political forum probably but I have to say an able bodied person mooching off social services intended for those that have legitimate issues is a problem for me - it diverts funds that those who are or have worked prior to retiring have paid in to taxes and social security etc, it's not free money its my money. I have a huge problem with these sponges, they should be kicked off those benefits if they are using them and be truly self sufficient if that's the lifestyle choice they settle on. I have no problem with those that have legitimate needs getting help from my hard earned dollars.
    that response does not fit as a response to my post. I was talking about some vanlifer parking on some guy's street and the home owner assuming the vanlifer is 'mooching.' But there is no evidence of said 'mooching' and perhaps the vanlifer is not on any social assistance. For all we know he is working a career or small biz from his van, as many of them do.
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