Riding in the hoods - does handlebar reach matter? - Page 3
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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelspeed View Post
    Sorry, that wiki article was unimpressive. I think it was a university student trying to make it sound good. It read like a bunch of technical terms he was defining one after another. And everything was "model" or "simplified". Like a bike simulating a turn on a perfect surface with no rider. I challenge you to initiate a turn on an actual downhill country road, and then let go of the bars "to let the bike balance carry the turn".
    Rider continually makes steering input throughout the turn in real life. Quickness of that steering depends on the length of the lever used to twist the fork tube.
    No, it depends on the headtube angle and fork offset.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelspeed View Post
    Quickness of that steering depends on the length of the lever used to twist the fork tube.
    The long lever provided by the stem presents a wider arc of control from the handlebars, but the response of the bike is still determined by fork angle and offset, as CX points out. Perfect examples:

    The commuter has 73 degree fork angle and slightly more trail. It "understeers," stays in line no matter what. The long 135 mm stem gives precise control over the headset bearings, but principally for balancing the bike and rider leaning into and scrolling through the turn. Essentially, rider is steering "straight ahead" all the time, making minute corrections to stay balanced and upright. The 135 mm stem requires a little more movement. It absorbs shocks from the fork a bit better, so the hands feel a little more comfortable on the hoods and handlebars.

    The other bike has a 74 or 74.5 degree steering angle and a 120 mm stem. It neither feels cushy or too reactive, but just right. Easily forget it's there. Lean the bike this way or that, though, and the steep fork angle responds so quick, rider really has to pay attention, "oversteer!" I've overreacted riding that bike and gone off the MUT, twice! The 54 cm frame was originally spec'd with a 110 mm stem. The only difference I could feel after changing to the 120 mm stem was a perception of a little more weight on the front wheel, easily modulated by moving fore or aft on the saddle.

  3. #53
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    Guys, I know all about head-tube and fork angle. I have a '19 mountain bike with about a 67 degree head tube and 50mm stem and 780mm bars; and a 15-year-old xc mtb with about a 71 degree head angle and 120mm stem and 700mm bars. Both use different forks with different trail and offsets. Actually, can feel the difference riding a mtb with 5" front suspension... uphill the bike has one head angle with the fork fully extended its 5", but downhill on the brakes with the fork squished, the head angle is 3" to 4" lower and you can feel it turn faster.

    Anyway, I think I've contemplated this enough to figure it out. I think going from a 90mm to an 80mm stem will make it twitchier, and the stem length change is like a 12% difference. Getting bars that get the hoods 10mm closer to me and keeping the same stem should be a much less effect on twitchiness. I think it's certainly less of a % change of "leverage" about twisting the forktube.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelspeed View Post
    Guys, I know all about head-tube and fork angle. I have a '19 mountain bike with about a 67 degree head tube and 50mm stem and 780mm bars; and a 15-year-old xc mtb with about a 71 degree head angle and 120mm stem and 700mm bars. Both use different forks with different trail and offsets. Actually, can feel the difference riding a mtb with 5" front suspension... uphill the bike has one head angle with the fork fully extended its 5", but downhill on the brakes with the fork squished, the head angle is 3" to 4" lower and you can feel it turn faster.

    Anyway, I think I've contemplated this enough to figure it out. I think going from a 90mm to an 80mm stem will make it twitchier, and the stem length change is like a 12% difference. Getting bars that get the hoods 10mm closer to me and keeping the same stem should be a much less effect on twitchiness. I think it's certainly less of a % change of "leverage" about twisting the forktube.
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    If your on a bike, and you think your pushing on the handlebars in the middle of a turn, you have no idea what is happening.

    I rode this morning and went around several corners at 10-20mph, without touching the bars at all, how u explain that? There was no twitchyness!
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    If your on a bike, and you think your pushing on the handlebars in the middle of a turn, you have no idea what is happening.

    I rode this morning and went around several corners at 10-20mph, without touching the bars at all, how u explain that? There was no twitchyness!
    C'mon...you're is the word YOU ARE (you're) looking for.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    If your on a bike, and you think your pushing on the handlebars in the middle of a turn, you have no idea what is happening.

    I rode this morning and went around several corners at 10-20mph, without touching the bars at all, how u explain that? There was no twitchyness!
    Good for ya!

    There was a right angle turn on a sidewalk MUT I had to negotiate that was too tight to lean into. I had to slow almost to a stop, actually turn the front wheel, and then go straight at the new angle. Obviously turning the front wheel 30 degrees at speed rider will lose his balance and go straight off the bike.

    Countersteer is putting pressure on the inside handlebar, correct? To keep the bike from "falling" into the turn? Also, if rider presses down hard on the outside pedal, the bike will stay firmly planted in the turn and rider can make course corrections with confidence. All a matter of inertial force and balance working together.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 01-19-2019 at 12:08 AM.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9W9W View Post
    My brain can't understand how the top of the bar will be in the same point in space if the distance to it from the steerer tube is different. I think you meant to say on the hoods.
    Indeed I did. Sorry for the confusion.
    They do anything just to win a salami in ridiculous races. I take my gear out of the car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of those lives shocks me. It was the illest of times, it was the dopest of times. And we looked damn good. Actually the autobus broke down somewhere on the Mortirolo.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    I rode this morning and went around several corners at 10-20mph, without touching the bars at all, how u explain that? There was no twitchyness!
    I absolutely agree. Frame geometry controls steering response at any speed above a slow walk, (where you actually do "steer" the bike). That is why crit bikes are hard to ride no hands, and tourers easy.
    I have, as my fitness and weight changed, run stems from 80 to 120 mm on the same bike with the same bars, and notice no change in handling.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeWMass View Post
    I absolutely agree. Frame geometry controls steering response at any speed above a slow walk, (where you actually do "steer" the bike). That is why crit bikes are hard to ride no hands, and tourers easy.
    I have, as my fitness and weight changed, run stems from 80 to 120 mm on the same bike with the same bars, and notice no change in handling.
    And there ya have it. Someone who understands how bicycles turn.
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  11. #61
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    Too bad Bicycling Magazine doesn't.
    This is in an article on handlebars on their website:

    Reach: A longer reach can increase your leverage on the handlebar for more responsive bike handling (although too much can make steering feel too responsive, and put too much weight on the front wheel).

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeWMass View Post
    Too bad Bicycling Magazine doesn't.
    This is in an article on handlebars on their website:

    Reach: A longer reach can increase your leverage on the handlebar for more responsive bike handling (although too much can make steering feel too responsive, and put too much weight on the front wheel).
    Sure, it provides a slightly longer "lever" to make minor adjustments in steering, but the main determinants are geometry, mainly head tube angle and fork rake.

    Curious that author feels longer stems could make the bike "too responsive." My 54cm commuter bike with 73 degree steering angle, has a long 135 mm stem. The bike steers "cushier," not so "quick" as a shorter stem, this by virtue of the longer lever.

    The longer lever can override the natural resistance in the bike geometry, though, which one might consider "too responsive." Control is amplified by the longer lever providing slightly more leverage.

    Traditional wisdom says the ideal placement of hands on hoods should be vertical above the front hub axle for optimum control and fore aft balance. Weight ahead of the front axle can more easily override the natural balance dialed in by geometry. The idea is to keep the weight between the wheels, not overlapping front or rear.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeWMass View Post
    Too bad Bicycling Magazine doesn't.
    This is in an article on handlebars on their website:

    Reach: A longer reach can increase your leverage on the handlebar for more responsive bike handling (although too much can make steering feel too responsive, and put too much weight on the front wheel).
    Damn, I guess that means anyone can write for a magazine.
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Damn, I guess that means anyone can write for a magazine.
    Pretty much. As long as the editor thinks the article will bring in readers. It's more important to sound interesting than to be true.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

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  15. #65
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    Riding in the hoods - does handlebar reach matter?

    Does the Allez geometry differ from the Tarmac? The Tarmac is just right.
    They do anything just to win a salami in ridiculous races. I take my gear out of the car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of those lives shocks me. It was the illest of times, it was the dopest of times. And we looked damn good. Actually the autobus broke down somewhere on the Mortirolo.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    Yes, and btw there are two Allez's with very different geometry and shape...tho both with internal cable routing and lowered seat stays.

    The Allez Sprint is designed for crit racing. Crit racers are aggressive guys and crash a fair amount. Many amateurs can afford a $1K frame replacement...but $2K or more for a carbon frame replacement stings more than the crash...or can. So many unsponsored crit racers look to race with Al frame which honestly doesn't hold them back much...handful of grams more than anything else. The Alez Sprint may in fact be one of the best crit bikes on the planet. It has a very short head tube and very upright seat tube which promotes rider CG more forward on the bike and rotated lower...hopefully offset by pedal forces when racing and very short chainstays and short wheelbase for snappy handling.. It has a massive BB and even hydroformed aero cues not unlike the Tarmac SL6.

    The Tarmac by contrast being fractionally lighter because molded in carbon is designed for road racing. The Tarmac SL6 if you own one or have ridden one also has a very friendly ride for a pure race bike. Sta is more conventional...head tube is still slammed but not as aggressive as the Allez Sprint...the Tarmac is all around road racing bike and very good climbing bike due to its stiffness and low weight.

    The Allez Elite is an endurance geometry. One of the best Al endurance bikes IMO with the right wheel and groupset for the money. The frame is very good for long days in the saddle. All carbon fork. Not a pure racing bike per se but for average rider a much friendlier bike to ride for 3 hours...mostly due to slightly friendlier flex and riding position that IMO won't hold you back from your group ride if set up well. Stock wheels and tires aren't very high spec but Shimano 105 is good enough for amateur racing of course.

    Specialized...and I know many don't like the company and yes they have made big mistakes along the way including in their bike design they generally correct over time...they make great bikes and of course have won a lot on the world stage....Sagan doing a lot of winning on them.
    Good Spesh summary. The CAAD 10 is the most raced frame for many of the reasons you mention. Al is light and affordable. Very aggressive geometry. Cannondale is the gold standard in Al frames. (The Super 6 carbon has put them on the main stage in CF as well) Sure, there are other options, but the CAAD 10 is so embedded in the niche you describe as to almost own it. Spesh would be the underdog challenger.
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  17. #67
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    Riding in the hoods - does handlebar reach matter?

    The Caad10 and 12 are more of a classic european road race geometry than the Allez Sprint. The latter’s geometry is indeed very aggressive.
    They do anything just to win a salami in ridiculous races. I take my gear out of the car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of those lives shocks me. It was the illest of times, it was the dopest of times. And we looked damn good. Actually the autobus broke down somewhere on the Mortirolo.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    True. Sprint is really purpose specific. I am sure too many however are sold to unsuspecting buyers who can't figure out why they can't get comfortable on the Sprint.

    Sagan certainly has enough pedal force to unweight his body on the Sprint with upright seat tube angle, but average Joe doesn't.
    I just took a quick (far from thorough) look at the geometry of the Sprint, CAAD 12 and my bike, a Scott Foil. I checked a 58. The numbers look pretty similar on all 3 bikes, far from identical, but pretty close. What kind of factors would make them feel substantially different?
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    Seat tube angle matters in terms of fore/aft weight distribution. Sprint has proprietary aero seat post and not much opportunity to change setback.
    Road race framesets for size 58...also what I ride...tend to be in the 73 deg range.
    A Sprint in size 58 has a 74 deg sta which affords a relatively short 405mm chainstay length. Move rider forward, easier to rotate pelvis to get more aero which works with short head tube...and of course more weight not only on the pedals but on the hands. Strong riders press hard enough on the pedals to keep hand pressure more manageable than weaker riders.

    The new Foil is considered a very fine aero bike. Remarkably, you likely know as an owner, the Foil even won the Paris Roubaix after its most recent redesign. Early Foils were pretty brutal to ride as were many early aero bike like first gen Cervelo S5.
    Thank you for the reply. Those numbers are identical between the 3 bikes mentioned... That’s kind of what I’m asking about.

    I’m on the previous design Foil, haha. It is unforgiving. I love how nimble and responsive it is though, and it corners precisely... It trained me.
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    The Allez Sprint is designed for crit racing. Crit racers are aggressive guys and crash a fair amount. Many amateurs can afford a $1K frame replacement...but $2K or more for a carbon frame replacement stings more than the crash...or can. So many unsponsored crit racers look to race with Al frame which honestly doesn't hold them back much...handful of grams more than anything else. The Alez Sprint may in fact be one of the best crit bikes on the planet. It has a very short head tube and very upright seat tube which promotes rider CG more forward on the bike and rotated lower...hopefully offset by pedal forces when racing and very short chainstays and short wheelbase for snappy handling.. It has a massive BB and even hydroformed aero cues not unlike the Tarmac SL6.

    The Tarmac by contrast being fractionally lighter because molded in carbon is designed for road racing. The Tarmac SL6 if you own one or have ridden one also has a very friendly ride for a pure race bike. Sta is more conventional...head tube is still slammed but not as aggressive as the Allez Sprint...the Tarmac is all around road racing bike and very good climbing bike due to its stiffness and low weight.

    The Allez Elite is an endurance geometry. One of the best Al endurance bikes IMO with the right wheel and groupset for the money. The frame is very good for long days in the saddle. All carbon fork. Not a pure racing bike per se but for average rider a much friendlier bike to ride for 3 hours...mostly due to slightly friendlier flex and riding position that IMO won't hold you back from your group ride if set up well. Stock wheels and tires aren't very high spec but Shimano 105 is good enough for amateur racing of course.
    Oddly enough that doesn't seem to be the case on Specialized's geometry charts. The Allez Sprint has the same STA as the Venge and the Tarmac. A road bike can only have a STA of around 74.0-75.0* or it won't put the rider in a UCI legal position. While this doesn't matter for club racers Specialized isn't going to make a frame that can't be used in UCI events. The stack is within 6mm for all 3 frames as well with the Sprint being right in the middle and contrary to your post the Tarmac is the lowest. Also the headtube on the Sprint is only 3mm shorter than on the Tarmac. Not very big differences at all, actually.
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  21. #71
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    Ok, I'm looking at the Allez Sprint disc, the S Works Tarmac, and the S Works Venge, all in 54cm.

    Venge Tarmac Allez Sprint

    Reach 387 384 385
    Stack 534 544 538
    ST angle 74 74 74
    Head tube 133 143 140

    The Allez Sprint isn't hugely different from anything that's considered a 'race' bike. I'll post photos of the charts if you still don't believe me.

    ETA: Damn, when I typed that it was way easier to read but it changes when posted. You get the idea.
    Last edited by cxwrench; 02-17-2019 at 12:53 PM.
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Ok, I'm looking at the Allez Sprint disc, the S Works Tarmac, and the S Works Venge, all in 54cm.

    Venge Tarmac Allez Sprint

    Reach 387 384 385
    Stack 534 544 538
    ST angle 74 74 74
    Head tube 133 143 140

    The Allez Sprint isn't hugely different from anything that's considered a 'race' bike. I'll post photos of the charts if you still don't believe me.

    ETA: Damn, when I typed that it was way easier to read but it changes when posted. You get the idea.
    Charts for the 3 bikes I looked at, for ease of comparison...




    https://www.specialized.com/us/en/al...-comp/p/129269


    https://geometrygeeks.bike/bike/scott-foil-10-2016/


    https://geometrygeeks.bike/bike/cann...-12-2016-2018/
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    I tried to upload geometry charts from Specialized website for Allez and Tarmac. The Allez has a .5 deg more upright sta compared to the Tarmac. I maybe too new to post pictures...not sure.

    We must be functioning in a parallel universe. The Tarmac has a taller stack compared to the Sprint just like I said...lol.

    To alay any confusion, why not post all the geometry charts? There seems to be disagreement between what you say and what I have seen by looking at the charts today.

    A counterpoint is....if you don't believe there is much difference, why would Specialized even bother changing geometry for the Sprint versus the Tarmac? Tarmac is tried and true and why not simply clone this demonstrated successful geometry?
    The bikes I looked at all had 74* seat tube angles for a 54cm frame. I'd have to go back and look again to see if they're different in smaller or larger sizes.

    Why would or wouldn't Specialized change geometry between frames? Who knows?
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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfrancois View Post
    Riding in the hoods ...

    it's not riding in the hoods that's the problem. It's keeping a hand on the bars while you set fire to the three crosses in the field that's a bit tricky.

    #amiright?
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfrancois View Post
    it's not riding in the hoods that's the problem. It's keeping a hand on the bars while you set fire to the three crosses in the field that's a bit tricky.

    #amiright?
    Yep.

    Well, it would also be necessary to heavy up the hoods so they stay upright at speed. Maybe they pinned them down sideways.

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