• 01-18-2016
    thisisthebeave
    Riding in the hoods - does handlebar reach matter?
    My current handlebar is 440mm wide, 140mm drop, and 104mm reach. If I ride exclusively in the hoods or tops, does reach matter?

    I'm looking at a new bar that is also 440mm wide, but 79mm reach and 127mm drop. My fit is good as is, but I want a carbon bar and the one I'm looking at has these slightly different measurements. Does that reach figure only matter for riding in the drops?
  • 01-18-2016
    woodys737
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    My current handlebar is 440mm wide, 140mm drop, and 104mm reach. If I ride exclusively in the hoods or tops, does reach matter?

    I'm looking at a new bar that is also 440mm wide, but 79mm reach and 127mm drop. My fit is good as is, but I want a carbon bar and the one I'm looking at has these slightly different measurements. Does that reach figure only matter for riding in the drops?

    A bar with 25mm less reach (the one your thinking of buying) will affect distance from saddle riding in the drops and while on the hoods but, not on the tops. This assumes one places the shifters in the same position.
  • 01-18-2016
    Marc
    Longer or shorter reach puts your brifters at a different distance from your body assuming all else stays constant. Yes it "matters", how much depends on you. Since you're going to a bar setup that is more compact everything (hoods/brakes levers/hooks/flats) is going to be closer.

    When looking at reach, factor in what method the bar maker uses to calculate reach as not everyone does it the same way.
  • 01-18-2016
    JCavilia
    Look at where the brake levers are attached to the bars, and it is immediately obvious that changing the reach dimension of the drop bar will change the position of the hoods (not so for the drop measurement). The bar you're looking at, assuming it's otherwise similar in shape, will put the hoods closer to you.

    And one more point: if you want to be a strong and versatile rider, you shouldn't be "exclusively" on the tops or hoods. Even if you don't use the drops often, there are situations where they provide great advantage, and you should be comfortable using them when necessary.
  • 01-18-2016
    thisisthebeave
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by woodys737 View Post
    A bar with 25mm less reach (the one your thinking of buying) will affect distance from saddle riding in the drops and while on the hoods but, not on the tops. This assumes one places the shifters in the same position.

    Thanks for the reply. I ride probably 95% hoods, 4% tops, 1% drops. I do not care at all about drop comfort and I ride the tops only to move around a bit from riding in the hoods.

    In that case, I should try to find a bar with similar reach figures to my current one?
  • 01-18-2016
    MMsRepBike
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    My current handlebar is 440mm wide, 140mm drop, and 104mm reach. If I ride exclusively in the hoods or tops, does reach matter?

    I'm looking at a new bar that is also 440mm wide, but 79mm reach and 127mm drop. My fit is good as is, but I want a carbon bar and the one I'm looking at has these slightly different measurements. Does that reach figure only matter for riding in the drops?

    Those are not slightly different measurements.

    A whole inch difference is absolutely huge in terms of bike fitment. I would call those drastically different fitting bars. Not only the reach but also the drops and I'm guessing the shape as well.

    104mm reach on bars is not very typical now a days. The 3T Aeronova has something right about that though. Most you'll find now are much closer to the 80mm mark.

    The new bars would put the hoods an inch closer to you so they would not fit you. Getting a stem an inch longer isn't the answer either. In my opinion the answer is getting a set of bars with the same or very close measurements to what you have.

    You'd be surprised how changing the shape or width or reach just a little totally changes the feel of everything. There's many sizes and shapes I refuse to ride.
  • 01-18-2016
    Jay Strongbow
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post

    In that case, I should try to find a bar with similar reach figures to my current one?

    Um, that would depend if you want similar reach. For the life of me I can't wrap my head around someone asking it reach matters.
  • 01-18-2016
    MMsRepBike
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    If I ride exclusively in the hoods or tops, does reach matter?

    Yes. Reach is essentially the extension of your stem length. How far from the stem clamp to the front of the bars where the shifters mount.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    Does that reach figure only matter for riding in the drops?

    No. It matters for the hoods and for the drops. It will effect you drastically.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    My fit is good as is, but I want a carbon bar

    If your fit is good as is you need to keep it where it's at. It's the most important thing.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    Thanks for the reply. I ride probably 95% hoods, 4% tops, 1% drops. I do not care at all about drop comfort and I ride the tops only to move around a bit from riding in the hoods.

    In that case, I should try to find a bar with similar reach figures to my current one?

    Yes.
    Carbon Fiber Handlebar Roadbike Internal Cable Routing Cycling Dropbar | eBay

    Buy something like the above China crap at your own risk.
    If you have the cash buy a 3T Aeronova which is the real deal of what the above is a fake of.

    Or just try to find some other bar with 104mm reach. I don't know of any off hand.
  • 01-18-2016
    Marc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MMsRepBike View Post
    Yes. Reach is essentially the extension of your stem length. How far from the stem clamp to the front of the bars where the shifters mount.



    No. It matters for the hoods and for the drops. It will effect you drastically.




    If your fit is good as is you need to keep it where it's at. It's the most important thing.



    Yes.
    Carbon Fiber Handlebar Roadbike Internal Cable Routing Cycling Dropbar | eBay

    Buy something like the above China crap at your own risk.
    If you have the cash buy a 3T Aeronova which is the real deal of what the above is a fake of.

    Or just try to find some other bar with 104mm reach. I don't know of any off hand.

    The problem with trying to buy the "real thing"...you can find fakes in retail packaging at B&M and legit online retail stores. And the fakes are good enough to fool most anyone not going over every individual box with a forensic eye.
  • 01-18-2016
    MikeWMass
    Or, since you don't ride the tops much, buy the shorter reach bars and a longer stem. You will have to get a smaller angle if you use your stem angling up, or a larger angle if flipped, to keep the stack the same.
  • 01-18-2016
    thisisthebeave
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MMsRepBike View Post
    Those are not slightly different measurements.

    A whole inch difference is absolutely huge in terms of bike fitment. I would call those drastically different fitting bars. Not only the reach but also the drops and I'm guessing the shape as well.

    104mm reach on bars is not very typical now a days. The 3T Aeronova has something right about that though. Most you'll find now are much closer to the 80mm mark.

    The new bars would put the hoods an inch closer to you so they would not fit you. Getting a stem an inch longer isn't the answer either. In my opinion the answer is getting a set of bars with the same or very close measurements to what you have.

    You'd be surprised how changing the shape or width or reach just a little totally changes the feel of everything. There's many sizes and shapes I refuse to ride.

    My bike is a 2015 Emonda SL8 so I'm kind of surprised it comes with an odd shape.

    When I originally made the thread I was reading the wrong line on the handlebar specs so it was like 85mm vs 79mm, hence the "small difference" line, forgot to edit that part.

    The 3T Aeronova is one of the ones I'm considering... is 3T a reputable (like Enve, Zipp, etc) carbon brand and would that look stupid on a non-aero frame?
  • 01-18-2016
    thisisthebeave
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Um, that would depend if you want similar reach. For the life of me I can't wrap my head around someone asking it reach matters.

    Because if reach only affects placement in the drops, it doesn't matter to ME. I didn't know until posting this thread that it affected hood placement. Obviously reach matters, but depending on how it is measured and where you ride, it has the potential to not matter. It was just wishful thinking on my part that an otherwise perfect bar might work for me.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MikeWMass View Post
    Or, since you don't ride the tops much, buy the shorter reach bars and a longer stem. You will have to get a smaller angle if you use your stem angling up, or a larger angle if flipped, to keep the stack the same.

    I'm already on a 120mm stem, have read that 130-140 can screw with handling
  • 01-18-2016
    robt57
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    . Does that reach figure only matter for riding in the drops?


    For me it matters maybe more than for most? With long femurs I prefer short reach bars and a longer stem. I have knee-ed bar tops on out of the saddle jumps before I figured it out.

    Also when I went from 9 speed Dura Ace STIs to 10 Speed the STI for 7800 were longer and reach on the bar came into play for me. I just put on a shorter stem initially, but again found I'd rather use shorter reach bars with the longer stem so changed both.

    So as far as in the drops, maybe ?? More so possibly if an ergo drop maybe?
  • 01-18-2016
    Local Hero
    You might end up riding in the drops more often.
  • 01-19-2016
    AlanE
    I thought this thread was going to be about riding through the black part of town and wondered wtf handlebar reach had to do with it. I realized you really meant riding ON the hoods.

    Urban Dictionary: the hood
  • 01-19-2016
    kbwh
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    130-140 can screw with handling

    Some brainwork for you:
    120 mm stem + 90 mm bar reach equals
    140 mm stem + 70 mm bar reach.
    Your hands (on the tops) will be in the same point in space. Handling will be the same.

    If you change to a compact bar like the 3T Ergonova you'll be able to use the drops more. The idea behind drop bars is to offer multiple hand positions after all.
  • 01-19-2016
    ericm979
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kbwh View Post
    120 mm stem + 90 mm bar reach equals
    140 mm stem + 70 mm bar reach.
    Your hands (on the tops) will be in the same point in space. Handling will be the same.

    The riders hands when on the hoods will be the same. With the longer stem and shorter reach, the reach to the bar tops will be longer.

    Bars with less drop may make the drops more useful. Only using the drops 4% of the time indicates that the bike fit could be better.

    There's other factors to bar fit than just reach and drop. I find that the shape of the drops makes a big difference, especially to comfort while on the hoods.
  • 01-19-2016
    Jay Strongbow
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    Because if reach only affects placement in the drops, it doesn't matter to ME. I didn't know until posting this thread that it affected hood placement. Obviously reach matters, but depending on how it is measured and where you ride, it has the potential to not matter. It was just wishful thinking on my part that an otherwise perfect bar might work for me.



    I'm already on a 120mm stem, have read that 130-140 can screw with handling

    I see. The issue here is you're mistaken on what reach means. Google "handlebar reach" and you should have no problem finding a diagram and I think then it'll be clear why reach matters.

    Here's one such example showing what reach means in this context: EB13: Refined Zipp Service Course SL Handlebars Move Hoods Closer, Higher - Bikerumor
  • 01-19-2016
    9W9W
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kbwh View Post
    Some brainwork for you:
    120 mm stem + 90 mm bar reach equals
    140 mm stem + 70 mm bar reach.
    Your hands (on the tops) will be in the same point in space. Handling will be the same.

    My brain can't understand how the top of the bar will be in the same point in space if the distance to it from the steerer tube is different. I think you meant to say on the hoods. Because the reach to the bar will most certainly not be the same. I recently purchased Easton's EC90SL3 bar which has a shorter reach than my previous bar by about a cm (70 or 74, can't remember). I also went up a stem size. I am now much more comfortable on the bar top, and the shorter reach ensured the reach to the hoods remained the same (with minor positioning tweaks)

    Also, I believe handling will not be the same. Steering inputs pivot around a diameter that is directly related to the length of the stem, not overall reach and therefore it's the distance from the steerer to the bar that matters and not the overall ditance to the hoods. The idea behind ZIPP's Service Course SL short reach bars (which replaced the still sought after [SSR]SuperShortReach model) was to allow bike fitters to put clients who needed an overall shorter reach on stems which would not compromise handling characteristics (read: longest possible stem given constraints). The idea here is to not shorten stem length beyond what was intended as not to alter handling characteristics.
  • 01-19-2016
    jetdog9
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    My bike is a 2015 Emonda SL8 so I'm kind of surprised it comes with an odd shape.

    When I originally made the thread I was reading the wrong line on the handlebar specs so it was like 85mm vs 79mm, hence the "small difference" line, forgot to edit that part.

    The 3T Aeronova is one of the ones I'm considering... is 3T a reputable (like Enve, Zipp, etc) carbon brand and would that look stupid on a non-aero frame?

    Are you sure you're not reading the info wrong now? 104 doesn't sound right for reach given the year/model of your bike, if it's the stock bar. Can you post link to the specs?
  • 01-19-2016
    9W9W
    If stock, per Trek, it's a Bontrager Race Lite, VR. Very little specs on website, but according to weighweenies around a 85cm reach.
  • 01-19-2016
    JCavilia
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 9W9W View Post
    If stock, per Trek, it's a Bontrager Race Lite, VR. Very little specs on website, but according to weighweenies around a 85cm reach.

    85 centimeters? That's some weird bar shape. I think you mean 85mm.
  • 01-19-2016
    9W9W
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JCavilia View Post
    85 centimeters? That's some weird bar shape. I think you mean 85mm.

    Actually, to snatch victory away from you, my "." key was stuck and I missed a period between the eight and five. :)
  • 01-19-2016
    jetdog9
    Sounds like the real winner is the keyboard. Was it getting back at you for spilling coffee on it?
  • 01-19-2016
    9W9W
    work pc, nothing nearly as exciting. wireless keyboard sometimes starts missing strokes during periods of high processor usage.
  • 01-19-2016
    thisisthebeave
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 9W9W View Post
    If stock, per Trek, it's a Bontrager Race Lite, VR. Very little specs on website, but according to weighweenies around a 85cm reach.

    All of the specs are available on the website... kind of hidden but they're there.

    Click "weight & specs" under the price

    Race Lite VR
    440mm width
    140mm drop
    104mm reach
  • 01-19-2016
    jetdog9
    Could be a typo on Trek's part, what does it actually say on your bar? I think for Bontrager bar it should say near the middle somewhere, where stem connects... I'd double-check on the bar itself, b/c most places on web seem to indicate 85 mm reach for that model...
  • 01-19-2016
    rm -rf
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 9W9W View Post
    My brain can't understand how the top of the bar will be in the same point in space if the distance to it from the steerer tube is different. I think you meant to say on the hoods. Because the reach to the bar will most certainly not be the same. I recently purchased Easton's EC90SL3 bar which has a shorter reach than my previous bar by about a cm (70 or 74, can't remember). I also went up a stem size. I am now much more comfortable on the bar top, and the shorter reach ensured the reach to the hoods remained the same (with minor positioning tweaks)

    Also, I believe handling will not be the same. Steering inputs pivot around a diameter that is directly related to the length of the stem, not overall reach and therefore it's the distance from the steerer to the bar that matters and not the overall ditance to the hoods. The idea behind ZIPP's Service Course SL short reach bars (which replaced the still sought after [SSR]SuperShortReach model) was to allow bike fitters to put clients who needed an overall shorter reach on stems which would not compromise handling characteristics (read: longest possible stem given constraints). The idea here is to not shorten stem length beyond what was intended as not to alter handling characteristics.

    I think that handling will be the same if the hoods are the same distance from the steerer tube. So a shorter stem and long reach bars would be very similar to a long stem and short reach bars. (But the drops would be located at a different distance, and short reach bars would likely have higher drops too). I'm mostly ignoring the tops position, since it's more for climbing or easy riding.

    The popularity of short reach bars is partly due to the shallow drops. And it all looks better with a normal stem and short reach instead of a very short stem and long reach bars.
  • 01-19-2016
    rm -rf
    85mm vs 104 mm reach

    If I had to guess, it seems that most bikes come with shorter reach now. The 104 mm seems unusual.

    104 mm is about 4 1/8 inch.
    85 mm is about 3 1/8.

    So, if the bar doesn't have the reach printed on it, you can put your thumb on a ruler at 3 1/8 inch, and hold it up to the side of the bars. You should be able to see if it's close or is way short. Hard to measure exactly, but the inch difference is a lot.

    It's often not exactly the center of the farthest point on the curve compared to the center of the stem clamp, but more of a theoretical horizontal orientation of the bars. And many riders rotate the bars upward from this.

    An illustration from the Zipp link in the comment above. IF the left side bar was horizontal on top instead of at the bar ends, it would measure considerably longer.

    It is interesting how the orientation of the bars can affect the hood reach distance, and that also depends on how sharp the curve is where the hoods attach.
    https://brimages.bikeboardmedia.netd...handlebars.jpg
  • 01-20-2016
    kbwh
    ^Sorry for writing "tops" while meaning "hoods" in my previous post. I made a fine mess of it. Thanks for the corrections.
  • 01-20-2016
    ericm979
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rm -rf View Post
    I think that handling will be the same if the hoods are the same distance from the steerer tube.

    Yes. If your hands are in the same position the handling will be the same. It doesn't matter how your hands are in that position.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rm -rf View Post

    So a shorter stem and long reach bars would be very similar to a long stem and short reach bars. (But the drops would be located at a different distance,

    The drops will be the same distance from the rider as well. Only the tops will be different. They will be farther out with the long stem+short reach bars. The reach to the hoods and drops will be the same (or close, given that bar reach does not change in exact increments of 10mm, stem length is not exact, stems are often at a slight angle, etc etc).


    I prefer short reach small drop bars. I set them up so my position in the drops is the same as with the larger reach and drop bars. My position on the hoods is lower, and on the tops is both lower and longer. So I'm a little bit more aero in those positions. The smaller reach and drop bars makes all three positions more similar.
  • 01-20-2016
    9W9W
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kbwh View Post
    ^Sorry for writing "tops" while meaning "hoods" in my previous post. I made a fine mess of it. Thanks for the corrections.

    thanks for giving me a chance to be an anal roadie. I now feel like part of the fam.
  • 01-20-2016
    thisisthebeave
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rm -rf View Post
    85mm vs 104 mm reach

    If I had to guess, it seems that most bikes come with shorter reach now. The 104 mm seems unusual.

    104 mm is about 4 1/8 inch.
    85 mm is about 3 1/8.

    So, if the bar doesn't have the reach printed on it, you can put your thumb on a ruler at 3 1/8 inch, and hold it up to the side of the bars. You should be able to see if it's close or is way short. Hard to measure exactly, but the inch difference is a lot.

    It's often not exactly the center of the farthest point on the curve compared to the center of the stem clamp, but more of a theoretical horizontal orientation of the bars. And many riders rotate the bars upward from this.

    An illustration from the Zipp link in the comment above. IF the left side bar was horizontal on top instead of at the bar ends, it would measure considerably longer.

    It is interesting how the orientation of the bars can affect the hood reach distance, and that also depends on how sharp the curve is where the hoods attach.

    Oh wow... just measured and it is about 85mm

    The only print on the bar itself I can see is width and clamp diameter. Should it be printed somewhere underneath the stem?
  • 01-20-2016
    namaSSte
    Apologies if I missed this but I don't see much mention of ramp in the discussion. I spend a fair amount of time on the hoods too (although its sounds like I utilize the drops and tops much more than you). In any case, I ride a compact bar by preference but find that even with a compact, the ramp is very important to feeling comfortable on the hoods. I prefer very little ramp so I have a very flat transition to the hoods. Obviously, others will prefer something different. Just be sure you factor that into the choice as well.
  • 01-20-2016
    JCavilia
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 9W9W View Post
    Actually, to snatch victory away from you, my "." key was stuck and I missed a period between the eight and five. :)

    This then prompts a question: Why would you express it as 8.5cm rather than 85mm like everyone else? (No need to answer). It's .085 metre by any name.
  • 01-20-2016
    kbwh
    ^Drop shape matters, as do "flare".
    I've tried three compact bars, with Campagnolo 3rd gen levers:
    1. FSA. Very nice and shallow drop, with lots of space for wide hands. Nice flare, not too much, maybe 1 cm.
    2. Deda (RHM): Roomy drops again. No flare. Almost as nice as the FSA.
    3. 3T Ergonova: Very little space in the drops for wide hands, only one position there. 2 cm flare is too much in my opinion. But many riders like them.
  • 01-20-2016
    JCavilia
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by namaSSte View Post
    Apologies if I missed this but I don't see much mention of ramp in the discussion. I spend a fair amount of time on the hoods too (although its sounds like I utilize the drops and tops much more than you). In any case, I ride a compact bar by preference but find that even with a compact, the ramp is very important to feeling comfortable on the hoods. I prefer very little ramp so I have a very flat transition to the hoods. Obviously, others will prefer something different. Just be sure you factor that into the choice as well.

    That, of course, is a function not just of bar shape, but of where you place the levers, and which levers they are. The interaction among bar shape, lever design and lever placement is complex, and if you're fussy you can spend a lot of time fiddling with it to get it feeling just right (NTTAWWT).
  • 01-20-2016
    jetdog9
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    Oh wow... just measured and it is about 85mm

    The only print on the bar itself I can see is width and clamp diameter. Should it be printed somewhere underneath the stem?

    In post of the pics I see of Trek's bars, the width/diameter is in a ring around the bar on one side of the stem, and the reach/drop are in the same place on the other side of the stem. Could it be under some bar tape or a sensor mount? Anyway, sounding like it's 85, so if you want to get that bar and have it go down to 79 it shouldn't be as drastic as you originally thought.
  • 01-14-2019
    Wheelspeed
    Pulling this up from 2016! Some might comment "old thread!", but if I started a new one, then some would write "use the search button".

    The OP had the exact same situation as me as far as wanting the hoods closer. But I have a couple of questions that are new:

    1. Is getting bars with shorter reach different than getting a shorter stem? There's a triangle effect between your steer tube and your hand-placement on the hoods, and I'm not smart enough to figure out if 10mm closer hoods would speed up the steering as much as a 10mm shorter stem. (A shorter Uno 7 stem is only $25. But I already put a 10mm shorter stem on my Emonda, and if feels like it steers pretty quick. So thinking of bars that can get hoods closer to me in case it wouldn't quicken the steering so much.)

    2. This bar was released after this thread stated. Zipp SL70 Speed Weoponry with only 70mm reach. https://www.zipp.com/bars/sl-70-ergo/#
    Any thoughts or reviews? Wouldn't mind a little chatter-absorption too vs. my OEM Bontrager VR-C Elite aluminum bar that has 85mm reach. I read a previous review that was pretty favorable of the Zipp Contour SL SS, and this bar apparently replaces that one.

    Again, if it quickens steering the same as a shorter stem, then I'll just get a shorter stem. I did try riding with my hands resting at the backs of the hoods, like 10 or 20mm back, in order to test what bars with shorter reach to the hoods might feel like. I didn't notice steering being faster. But I didn't like riding that way only because I couldn't reach the brake levers like that.
  • 01-14-2019
    duriel
    Are you track racing? I doubt it would make any difference that u could tell. If there was any difference, it is probably more due to change in wt balance than anything else.
  • 01-14-2019
    cxwrench
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wheelspeed View Post
    Pulling this up from 2016! Some might comment "old thread!", but if I started a new one, then some would write "use the search button".

    The OP had the exact same situation as me as far as wanting the hoods closer. But I have a couple of questions that are new:

    1. Is getting bars with shorter reach different than getting a shorter stem? There's a triangle effect between your steer tube and your hand-placement on the hoods, and I'm not smart enough to figure out if 10mm closer hoods would speed up the steering as much as a 10mm shorter stem. (A shorter Uno 7 stem is only $25. But I already put a 10mm shorter stem on my Emonda, and if feels like it steers pretty quick. So thinking of bars that can get hoods closer to me in case it wouldn't quicken the steering so much.)

    2. This bar was released after this thread stated. Zipp SL70 Speed Weoponry with only 70mm reach. https://www.zipp.com/bars/sl-70-ergo/#
    Any thoughts or reviews? Wouldn't mind a little chatter-absorption too vs. my OEM Bontrager VR-C Elite aluminum bar that has 85mm reach. I read a previous review that was pretty favorable of the Zipp Contour SL SS, and this bar apparently replaces that one.

    Again, if it quickens steering the same as a shorter stem, then I'll just get a shorter stem. I did try riding with my hands resting at the backs of the hoods, like 10 or 20mm back, in order to test what bars with shorter reach to the hoods might feel like. I didn't notice steering being faster. But I didn't like riding that way only because I couldn't reach the brake levers like that.

    1) Yes. There is a difference when you're riding on the tops. You could have a 100mm stem and a bar w/ 100mm reach, that would put you 200mm from the center of the steerer...OR you could have a bar w/ 80mm reach and a 120mm stem. Same 200mm when on the hoods, but a 20mm difference when on the tops.
    2) You'd probably notice more difference if you used thick bar tape.

    We've gone round and round about shorter/longer stems and the myth that they change the way a bike 'handles'. A shorter stem does NOT make a bike steer quicker. A longer stem does not make a bike more stable. A shorter stem will reduce the 'tiller' effect that you might notice w/ a long stem but the way a bike steers is determined by headtube angle and fork offset. The resulting trail measurement is the determining factor in how the bike handles. That's why you didn't notice the bike steer any faster. It couldn't unless you changed the headtube angle or the fork offset.

    (Flame suit on)
  • 01-14-2019
    Wheelspeed
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    1) Yes. There is a difference when you're riding on the tops. You could have a 100mm stem and a bar w/ 100mm reach, that would put you 200mm from the center of the steerer...OR you could have a bar w/ 80mm reach and a 120mm stem. Same 200mm when on the hoods, but a 20mm difference when on the tops.
    2) You'd probably notice more difference if you used thick bar tape.

    We've gone round and round about shorter/longer stems and the myth that they change the way a bike 'handles'. A shorter stem does NOT make a bike steer quicker. A longer stem does not make a bike more stable. A shorter stem will reduce the 'tiller' effect that you might notice w/ a long stem but the way a bike steers is determined by headtube angle and fork offset. The resulting trail measurement is the determining factor in how the bike handles. That's why you didn't notice the bike steer any faster. It couldn't unless you changed the headtube angle or the fork offset.

    (Flame suit on)

    Why do people keep bringing up the tops? Neither I or the OP asked about tops. I'm asking about riding on the hoods. Anyone can add or subtract stem and reach lengths.

    All else being constant, I feel like a shorter stem should make it steer faster. For a longer stem, any degree of steering will require the bars to sweep a bigger arc around the head tube axis. So it's easier to make smaller steering adjustments.
  • 01-14-2019
    cxwrench
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wheelspeed View Post
    Why do people keep bringing up the tops? Neither I or the OP asked about tops. I'm asking about riding on the hoods. Anyone can add or subtract stem and reach lengths.

    All else being constant, I feel like a shorter stem should make it steer faster. For a longer stem, any degree of steering will require the bars to sweep a bigger arc around the head tube axis. So it's easier to make smaller steering adjustments.

    The main thing you're missing is that you don't make a bicycle go around a turn soley by steering it w/ your hands on the bars. You initiate the turn w/ a slight push on the bars in the opposite direction you want to turn, the rest is controlled by lean. A bicycle isn't steered through a corner like a car w/ a steering wheel. It's a combination of lean angle, weigh distribution and pressure on the bars.
  • 01-14-2019
    Fredrico
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wheelspeed View Post
    All else being constant, I feel like a shorter stem should make it steer faster. For a longer stem, any degree of steering will require the bars to sweep a bigger arc around the head tube axis. So it's easier to make smaller steering adjustments.

    Yes, CX is right. Rider "steers" mainly to keep the front wheel in line when adjusting direction. Still, a longer steering lever gives the bike a slightly cushier feel controlling the front wheel, not that rider uses it differently.

    And yes, 73-71 degree head tube angles and increased trail, and wheel base, not stem lengths, are the main determinants of steering, or maybe we should say cornering response, as CX points out.
  • 01-15-2019
    Lombard
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wheelspeed View Post
    All else being constant, I feel like a shorter stem should make it steer faster. For a longer stem, any degree of steering will require the bars to sweep a bigger arc around the head tube axis. So it's easier to make smaller steering adjustments.

    No it won't. Read this Wikipedia article on countersteer:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
  • 01-15-2019
    blackfrancois
  • 01-15-2019
    Fredrico
    1 Attachment(s)
    Riding in the 'hood:
  • 01-15-2019
    MaxKatt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AlanE View Post
    I thought this thread was going to be about riding through the black part of town and wondered wtf handlebar reach had to do with it. I realized you really meant riding ON the hoods.

    Urban Dictionary: the hood



    ...And I saw this interpretation, and the Klan interpretation, but actually had been looking to post yet a third take on it.


    How big are these hoods???? How would one get in them?
  • 01-15-2019
    Fredrico
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MaxKatt View Post
    ...And I saw this interpretation, and the Klan interpretation, but actually had been looking to post yet a third take on it.


    How big are these hoods???? How would one get in them?

    The 'hood in the picture below is Adams-Morgan, 2 miles up 16th St. from the White House in DC, extending west on the hill above DuPont Circle. Still a freewheeling 'hood with an international flavor, black, white, hispanic.

    Rider might cruise on the tops, but would want to reach the hoods quickly.
  • 01-17-2019
    Wheelspeed
    Sorry, that wiki article was unimpressive. I think it was a university student trying to make it sound good. It read like a bunch of technical terms he was defining one after another. And everything was "model" or "simplified". Like a bike simulating a turn on a perfect surface with no rider. I challenge you to initiate a turn on an actual downhill country road, and then let go of the bars "to let the bike balance carry the turn".
    Rider continually makes steering input throughout the turn in real life. Quickness of that steering depends on the length of the lever used to twist the fork tube.