Shimano Pro Division Pricing Scam
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 34
  1. #1
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Notvintage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,387

    Shimano Pro Division Pricing Scam

    I noticed an interesting scam that Shimano's cockpit division is running. I was looking at a the Pro Vibe Superlight Compact Carbon Handlebars. In the the USA I've noticed for decades that we get screwed on cycling prices for everything, so I checked Sigmasport and the bars are $274 USD, but it's stated that: "We're sorry, but unfortunately, we're unable to ship this item to your country."
    Same scam is run by all European distributors (Bike24, R2bike. . .). In the US the bars are pretty much locked at $429 USD, so Shimano seems to try and scam the US based folks for 57% more for the same product. Weird tactic. Sidi tried the same crap which is why I'll never buy another pair of their shoes. Curious what others have had for observations. And please no politics; for the record, I hate Donald tRump and the repub'tards more the the worst hangover.
    Moderator move as you see fit.

  2. #2
    I love to climb!
    Reputation: Jwiffle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,020
    Not a scam. Shimano has finally started to try to control pricing of their products so that their stuff is not devalued so badly. It helps make it fair for all sellers in the US. So shops cannot sell outside their geographical location. Europe shops cannot sell to US, US shops cannot sell to Europe customers.

    It's actually a good thing.
    Stop in at Element Sports. www.elementsport.com
    Get Out! Have Fun!

  3. #3
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Notvintage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,387
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    It's actually a good thing.
    If you like subsidizing the world it is. Besides, you can still buy components at huge discounts. Itís just the ďProĒ division, and Iíll not buy from any company involved in price fixing. I wrote Sidi off for that.

  4. #4
    I love to climb!
    Reputation: Jwiffle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,020
    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    If you like subsidizing the world it is. Besides, you can still buy components at huge discounts. Itís just the ďProĒ division, and Iíll not buy from any company involved in price fixing. I wrote Sidi off for that.
    It's not price fixing. All manufacturers publish MSRPs. Price fixing is when separate companies collude to raise prices on necessities.

    No, companies should enforce their MSRP/MAP pricing. It makes it fair for all resellers, rather than just a couple big companies able to get a monopoly. If they succeed, the small companies go out of business, then the big shops can raise prices to whatever they want to make you pay.

    When European companies are undermining US shops by selling gray and black market Shimano goods at less than US wholesale, or devalues Shimano's brand, but more importantly, it creates an unfair selling environment for US businesses. American businesses have been hounding Shimano for years to do something. They are finally starting to.

    It is a good thing. You need to lose the mentality that cheaper is always better, because in the long run, you'll hurt yourself when you can no longer get what you want/ need.
    Stop in at Element Sports. www.elementsport.com
    Get Out! Have Fun!

  5. #5
    pmf
    pmf is offline
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    5,507
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    It's not price fixing. All manufacturers publish MSRPs. Price fixing is when separate companies collude to raise prices on necessities.

    No, companies should enforce their MSRP/MAP pricing. It makes it fair for all resellers, rather than just a couple big companies able to get a monopoly. If they succeed, the small companies go out of business, then the big shops can raise prices to whatever they want to make you pay.

    When European companies are undermining US shops by selling gray and black market Shimano goods at less than US wholesale, or devalues Shimano's brand, but more importantly, it creates an unfair selling environment for US businesses. American businesses have been hounding Shimano for years to do something. They are finally starting to.

    It is a good thing. You need to lose the mentality that cheaper is always better, because in the long run, you'll hurt yourself when you can no longer get what you want/ need.
    The poster boy for this is Campagnolo's U.S. distributor who prices Campy components way above (like 30%-40%) the European market. How is this good for anyone? U.S. consumers try to get around it by buying Campy components from European vendors. Meanwhile, Campy loses market share here in the U.S. because a lot of people say aren't comfortable with, or savvy enough to buy overseas and just buy Shimano instead. Maybe Campy needs to raise prices in Europe to level the playing field.

    One thing for sure -- bike shops charge ridiculously high prices for components.

  6. #6
    I love to climb!
    Reputation: Jwiffle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,020
    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    The poster boy for this is Campagnolo's U.S. distributor who prices Campy components way above (like 30%-40%) the European market. How is this good for anyone? U.S. consumers try to get around it by buying Campy components from European vendors. Meanwhile, Campy loses market share here in the U.S. because a lot of people say aren't comfortable with, or savvy enough to buy overseas and just buy Shimano instead. Maybe Campy needs to raise prices in Europe to level the playing field.

    One thing for sure -- bike shops charge ridiculously high prices for components.
    Bike shops have to charge higher prices because the components are higher priced to them. Although, MSRP is the normal price, not "high."

    And bikes and bike components have a lot less margin than most other items. Friends of mine worked at a furniture store. The $2,000 couch they sold had a wholesale of only $500. A $2,000 bike has a wholesale of around $1,400.

    That's why you see Kohl's, Walmart, other big retailers have the super sales at 75% off - they're still making money. A bike shop puts an item at 50% off, they're just losing money.
    Stop in at Element Sports. www.elementsport.com
    Get Out! Have Fun!

  7. #7
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    5,790
    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    The poster boy for this is Campagnolo's U.S. distributor who prices Campy components way above (like 30%-40%) the European market. How is this good for anyone? U.S. consumers try to get around it by buying Campy components from European vendors. Meanwhile, Campy loses market share here in the U.S. because a lot of people say aren't comfortable with, or savvy enough to buy overseas and just buy Shimano instead. Maybe Campy needs to raise prices in Europe to level the playing field.

    One thing for sure -- bike shops charge ridiculously high prices for components.
    I dont understand Campy pricing policies in the US vs Europe, but as a Campy guy I buy all mt groups and spare parts from Europe because it is such a big difference. Even if I wanted to buy Campy stuff from my LBS, they dont stock it

  8. #8
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Notvintage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,387
    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    Maybe Campy needs to raise prices in Europe to level the playing field.
    If Campy tried that, they would be completely done. Out of business. They are a small fringe brand hanging by a thread. I like Campy too.

  9. #9
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    29,445
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    Not a scam. Shimano has finally started to try to control pricing of their products so that their stuff is not devalued so badly. It helps make it fair for all sellers in the US. So shops cannot sell outside their geographical location. Europe shops cannot sell to US, US shops cannot sell to Europe customers.

    It's actually a good thing.
    AKA...they're being anti-consumer and acting like a quasi-monopoly.

    Pretending this is good...is pretending.

    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    If Campy tried that, they would be completely done. Out of business. They are a small fringe brand hanging by a thread. I like Campy too.
    Campy and SRAM were doing this before Shimano did.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  10. #10
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    290
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    Bike shops have to charge higher prices because the components are higher priced to them.
    Why higher priced to them?

  11. #11
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: nova_rider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    337
    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    If Campy tried that, they would be completely done. Out of business. They are a small fringe brand hanging by a thread. I like Campy too.
    Don't count out Campy just yet.
    https://road.cc/content/tech-news/ca...roupset-275995

    Also, I suspect Campy has margins that others can only dream of. There are plenty out there that are willing to pay for exclusivity. I see and ride with plenty of mamils that have the means to spend on fancy gear, and they absolutely do.

  12. #12
    I love to climb!
    Reputation: Jwiffle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,020
    Quote Originally Posted by bobf View Post
    Why higher priced to them?
    I don't know. Ask Shimano. They used to say they couldn't control pricing. I responded that you could at least sell it cheaper at our wholesale so we could compete. They haven't done that, but at least they've cut off Europe (where a lot of it is cheap because it's gray market).
    Stop in at Element Sports. www.elementsport.com
    Get Out! Have Fun!

  13. #13
    I love to climb!
    Reputation: Jwiffle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,020
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    AKA...they're being anti-consumer and acting like a quasi-monopoly.

    Pretending this is good...is pretending.



    Campy and SRAM were doing this before Shimano did.
    It's not pretending. The intent is to try to keep it fair for US shops... you know, the ones who have to service it, fix it, and handle warranties for them. Those that deal directly with said consumers who buy Shimano products and then need help with it.

    Again, in the long run, it is pro- consumer. Helping the shops stay in business helps their products stay in US consumers' hands. If all the US shops are gone or unable to compete with the big Euro shops, consumers here will begin to suffer, especially when the big sellers in Europe realize they have a monopoly and can then raise prices astronomically.
    Stop in at Element Sports. www.elementsport.com
    Get Out! Have Fun!

  14. #14
    pmf
    pmf is offline
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    5,507
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    I dont understand Campy pricing policies in the US vs Europe, but as a Campy guy I buy all mt groups and spare parts from Europe because it is such a big difference. Even if I wanted to buy Campy stuff from my LBS, they dont stock it
    Campy seems to be trying to do itself in. The smartest thing they did in recent history was that beautiful polished Athena group. The following year, they downgraded the shifters. A few years later, they replace it with Potenza (yuck). Their once elegant cranks now look like Shimano cranks.

    My bike shop can source me Campy stuff, but at ridiculous prices. I buy damn near everything I can from the UK vendors. In a lot of cases, its half what I'd pay here.

  15. #15
    pmf
    pmf is offline
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    5,507
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    It's not pretending. The intent is to try to keep it fair for US shops... you know, the ones who have to service it, fix it, and handle warranties for them. Those that deal directly with said consumers who buy Shimano products and then need help with it.

    Again, in the long run, it is pro- consumer. Helping the shops stay in business helps their products stay in US consumers' hands. If all the US shops are gone or unable to compete with the big Euro shops, consumers here will begin to suffer, especially when the big sellers in Europe realize they have a monopoly and can then raise prices astronomically.
    That's the most assnine argument I've ever heard. Its a good thing for consumers to pay higher prices to subsidize a failing business model? You evidently have never had an economics class, and I'm wondering if you've ever been in a bike shop. The shop I go to is not in the business of selling components. They're in the business of selling bikes and servicing bikes. I bet a significant portion of their income is service. And that's small stuff like chains, brake pads, etc. I bet my shop has never sold anyone a component group. 90% of the biking public would never consider doing anything else but going to a bike shop for sales or service. A big European store isn't going to sell them a bike, or service it.

  16. #16
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    29,445
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    It's not pretending. The intent is to try to keep it fair for US shops... you know, the ones who have to service it, fix it, and handle warranties for them. Those that deal directly with said consumers who buy Shimano products and then need help with it.

    Again, in the long run, it is pro- consumer. Helping the shops stay in business helps their products stay in US consumers' hands. If all the US shops are gone or unable to compete with the big Euro shops, consumers here will begin to suffer, especially when the big sellers in Europe realize they have a monopoly and can then raise prices astronomically.
    Your part of the world must be different than this one.

    The bicycle industry has gone from relying on bespoke built bikes to 99.99% relying on bikes from brands semi-assembled in boxes with finish building and support from shops. Any business relying on consumer bought parts to build bikes bespoke--is going out of business the day they open, here. Those people buying parts--are most likely wrenching and building at home. Even if the price on Amazon is the same as at the LBS--Amazon gets me the part a week sooner.

    So no...this really doesn't help bicycle shops, at all. It just screws consumers.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  17. #17
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    5,790
    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    Campy seems to be trying to do itself in. The smartest thing they did in recent history was that beautiful polished Athena group. The following year, they downgraded the shifters. A few years later, they replace it with Potenza (yuck). Their once elegant cranks now look like Shimano cranks.

    My bike shop can source me Campy stuff, but at ridiculous prices. I buy damn near everything I can from the UK vendors. In a lot of cases, its half what I'd pay here.
    Campy doesn't make the best business decisions. Agree that the discontinued silver Athena group is beautiful (have it on my Colnago). I have a Potenza group too and the crank is very "industrial" looking.

  18. #18
    I love to climb!
    Reputation: Jwiffle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,020
    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    That's the most assnine argument I've ever heard. Its a good thing for consumers to pay higher prices to subsidize a failing business model? You evidently have never had an economics class, and I'm wondering if you've ever been in a bike shop. The shop I go to is not in the business of selling components. They're in the business of selling bikes and servicing bikes. I bet a significant portion of their income is service. And that's small stuff like chains, brake pads, etc. I bet my shop has never sold anyone a component group. 90% of the biking public would never consider doing anything else but going to a bike shop for sales or service. A big European store isn't going to sell them a bike, or service it.
    "Never been in a bike shop." Made me laugh! I happen to own a bike shop. One that has been growing. And while you are correct that components is not a large part of the business, it's still significant.

    I don't stress about it, and I give no one a hard time about buying online. It's a lot cheaper, and I can fault no one for that. We happily install many parts bought elsewhere.

    But, I do take offense when someone claims I'm "scamming" people simply by listing prices at MSRP that barely make me any money even then. In fact, if the business was reliant on selling Shimano components, I'd need to jack prices on them to almost double MSRP to actually come out ahead.
    Stop in at Element Sports. www.elementsport.com
    Get Out! Have Fun!

  19. #19
    Russian Troll Farmer
    Reputation: No Time Toulouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    2,736
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    "Never been in a bike shop." Made me laugh! I happen to own a bike shop. One that has been growing. And while you are correct that components is not a large part of the business, it's still significant.
    ....
    Hence the reason why you support a policy which only helps bike shops. Sorry, buddy, you just lost any gravitas you may've started with.....
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  20. #20
    I love to climb!
    Reputation: Jwiffle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,020
    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    Hence the reason why you support a policy which only helps bike shops. Sorry, buddy, you just lost any gravitas you may've started with.....
    I'd still make the same argument. Because it's more than just about me and my shop. Keeping our money in the US is another good thing about Shimano's policy preventing sales between continents.
    Stop in at Element Sports. www.elementsport.com
    Get Out! Have Fun!

  21. #21
    pmf
    pmf is offline
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    5,507
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    "Never been in a bike shop." Made me laugh!.
    Well then, answer me this -- when I go into my LBS, which is a small chain of 6-7 stores in the DC area -- so its not a mom and pop place -- if I ask for a part, they pull out this big thick book and look it up. It appears that this is their sole source of parts. My guess is that they've been using the big book for years and never bothered to find other suppliers because 'that's the way we've always done it'. I understand that there's search costs and its easier for them to not seek out lower priced suppliers. I get that, but you don't get why I don't buy a Conti 5000 tire from them for $80 when I can get two for that cost on the web. I don't think raising prices is going to make me beholden to them. For bike shops to survive, they need to concentrate on what UPS can't deliver -- service.

  22. #22
    I love to climb!
    Reputation: Jwiffle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,020
    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    Well then, answer me this -- when I go into my LBS, which is a small chain of 6-7 stores in the DC area -- so its not a mom and pop place -- if I ask for a part, they pull out this big thick book and look it up. It appears that this is their sole source of parts. My guess is that they've been using the big book for years and never bothered to find other suppliers because 'that's the way we've always done it'. I understand that there's search costs and its easier for them to not seek out lower priced suppliers. I get that, but you don't get why I don't buy a Conti 5000 tire from them for $80 when I can get two for that cost on the web. I don't think raising prices is going to make me beholden to them. For bike shops to survive, they need to concentrate on what UPS can't deliver -- service.
    Did you not read my previous response to you?

    There are only so many wholesalers, and most all of them sell the parts, like Conti 5000 tires, for around the same price to shops. A cheaper source for the shop would be to buy them from the same place you do, because 2 for $80 is less than a shop can get from any distributor. But that doesn't make any sense. May as well just let the customer buy it themselves from those vendors. That's the problem. Shimano is finally trying to even it out so it can be fairer for all sellers. I get it, from the consumer's "lowest price is always the best price" mentality that we've been conditioned to, it's hard to understand the positive to Shimano's policy.

    And like I said, if you brought the tires purchased online to my shop, I'd happily install for our normal install charge, no extra labor like I've heard of some shops doing. I would not begrudge you for finding it cheaper elsewhere. I know I can't compete on price, so I hope to win customers over on service.

    I only responded to the thread to point out that Shimano's policy is not a scam, and shops selling at MSRP are not scammers.

    Also, fwiw, the last time I bought a bike before getting in the industry, I paid MSRP for the bike at a shop I liked rather than elsewhere, even though I did see other shops listing it for lower.
    Stop in at Element Sports. www.elementsport.com
    Get Out! Have Fun!

  23. #23
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Notvintage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,387
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    Again, in the long run, it is pro- consumer. Helping the shops stay in business helps their products stay in US consumers' hands.
    Lol . . What glue do you prefer? Testors?

  24. #24
    pmf
    pmf is offline
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    5,507
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    Did you not read my previous response to you?

    There are only so many wholesalers, and most all of them sell the parts, like Conti 5000 tires, for around the same price to shops. A cheaper source for the shop would be to buy them from the same place you do, because 2 for $80 is less than a shop can get from any distributor. But that doesn't make any sense. May as well just let the customer buy it themselves from those vendors. That's the problem. Shimano is finally trying to even it out so it can be fairer for all sellers. I get it, from the consumer's "lowest price is always the best price" mentality that we've been conditioned to, it's hard to understand the positive to Shimano's policy.

    And like I said, if you brought the tires purchased online to my shop, I'd happily install for our normal install charge, no extra labor like I've heard of some shops doing. I would not begrudge you for finding it cheaper elsewhere. I know I can't compete on price, so I hope to win customers over on service.

    I only responded to the thread to point out that Shimano's policy is not a scam, and shops selling at MSRP are not scammers.

    Also, fwiw, the last time I bought a bike before getting in the industry, I paid MSRP for the bike at a shop I liked rather than elsewhere, even though I did see other shops listing it for lower.
    Yes, I read you response. I find it curious that I can buy this stuff cheaper than you can. And even more curious why you're *****ing and moaning about it.

    I think you should realize that you're not talking to average cyclists here. I own 5 Campy 11-speed road bikes. Last time I bought a bike off the rack was in 1992. I buy a frame, components, custom wheels, etc. and pay my LBS to build it for me. I could do that part myself, but they do a good job and I don't mind paying them $200 to do it. The mechanics they have there are really nice guys and are very good. There's no snob thing going on. And they don't sell the kind of bikes I want to buy. I support them by paying them to do service. It doesn't bother me to pay them $100 to replace all the cables (recently), but I brought the Campy cable set that I paid $40 for (they want $125) and bar tape I paid $35 for (they don't have decent bar tape in stock -- I'm sure they could have ordered it for $80). Its not that I can't afford to pay those kind of prices, but why on earth should I?

  25. #25
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,261
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    Bike shops have to charge higher prices because the components are higher priced to them. Although, MSRP is the normal price, not "high."

    And bikes and bike components have a lot less margin than most other items. Friends of mine worked at a furniture store. The $2,000 couch they sold had a wholesale of only $500. A $2,000 bike has a wholesale of around $1,400.

    That's why you see Kohl's, Walmart, other big retailers have the super sales at 75% off - they're still making money. A bike shop puts an item at 50% off, they're just losing money.
    Yeah that's kind of BS. Two nearby bike shops about 20 miles apart. EXACT same Euro-bike is literally (and I do mean literally) and almost exactly 2X as expensive at one of the shops. Both are 100% legit, not Chinese knock-offs. And not just one model. Have seen this on several different bikes over a couple of years. Why anyone shops at the expensive shop, I have NO idea, but they've been in business for many years.
    Well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion man. - The Dude

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. great bass line...joy division
    By bigchromewheelssuck in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 05-20-2009, 08:02 PM
  2. Phishing alert, Wells Fargo division
    By Cory in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-08-2009, 08:59 PM
  3. Republican Party Division....
    By physasst in forum Politics Only
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 10-01-2008, 06:53 PM
  4. Does the GOP have a secret e-rumors division?
    By xxl in forum Politics Only
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 06-20-2008, 03:50 PM
  5. 06 campy pricing versus 07 campy pricing
    By fah35 in forum Components, Wrenching
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-29-2007, 10:01 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT ROADBIKEREVIEW

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2020 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.