So,is Campagnolo doomed ?? - Page 2
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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    There is truth in your observations (the super expensive but required Campy chain tool ).

    On the other hand, the failure to get hydraulic discs on the market had to be big in Austria, Northern Italy, and Switzerland where their superiority was apparent to serious recreational riders by the end of the summer of 2014. Four years late in the Alps / Dolomites and the home of Campy was just too much.

    I hope I am wrong and that they keep it together enough to build marrket share.

    Buying components in EU is a small issue compared to the cost savings.
    I honestly suspect Campag holding back on disc brakes was in large part them hoping ISO rotor mounting would put CenterLock down. Also waiting to see if flat-mount or post-mount would win...in the end Campagnolo acquiesced and went Centerlock (and probably pays Shimano licensing to use CL), which is funny given the final AFS rotor design looks like an ISO rotor with a CL adapter. Not to make things more convenient--as their calipers are proprietary and size specific, and their rotors are a different width spec than anyone else's also.


    In the end at least they went with mineral oil instead of DOT.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    We so agree on that point. I'd rather not ride that ride a bike with SCAM on it. Hideous bit of kit.
    You crack me up. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion but I'm wondering why you have yours...I'll bet you have virtually zero experience of your own about SRAM.
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  3. #28
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    I bought a new, fairly high-end gravel bike that came equipped with SRAM Force 1x. I really tried hard to love it, but I just couldn't. After a season of riding it, I pulled it off and the bike now has Ultegra 6800 Di2 on it (which I do love dearly).

    As far as why I don't like SRAM? This is all very subjective and anecdotal... just so we are clear...

    *- I didn't like the feel of the levers and hoods. I tried, I really did. They just felt plastic'y and cheap.
    *- The general quality just didn't feel good. Shifting, braking, none of it. For lack of a better way to express it, it felt imprecise. From what I understand, I was lucky that I didn't have to deal with the FD. I have heard stories.
    *- DOT Fluid? I do all my own wrenching, and I'd just prefer not to deal with that stuff..
    *- Subjectively, I don't care for the aesthetics of SRAM components. None of it, from the chainrings, and shifters, to the derailleurs. Just not my cup of tea.
    *- Lastly, and this may not be true any more. Some of my mechanic friends told me that there was a fairly high return rate on SRAM components. They also said that SRAM was pretty good about honoring warranties, but that the gear had a relatively high failure rate compared to Shimano stuff.
    Last edited by Finx; 02-20-2019 at 05:42 PM.

  4. #29
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    Campagnolo hasn't been a factor in the OEM market for some time. This is not a new phenomenon. They'll always be less relevant than Shimano and SRAM for this very reason. Group sets have a higher price point too which may be a factor. They will mostly live on custom builds and people swapping out old group sets.

    of course they make good stuff but it will be harder and harder to fund r&d etc when they're acting more like a niche player. wouldn't surprise me if they get acquired or bought out at some point

  5. #30
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    I hope not.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    Cx,
    Sounds like you like Sram. At your shop, does Etap have a good rep? Find any sleepy rear derailleurs? Prefer E-tap to Di2?

    Thanks
    I do but that doesn't have anything to do w/ my last post. I think all of the big 3 put out product that works great. I think Campy electronic is needlessly over complicated. Campy mechanical works just fine.
    I've worked w/ SRAM since it was pre-release/prototype. I've had mechanical SRAM on my personal bikes since '07. We sell a decent amount of etap at the shop and I've seen 1 rear derailleur that didn't shift well. If I were going to put an electronic group on my bike I'd go SRAM for sure. I like Di2 but it seems like Shimano have done so many updates and 'improvements' that they've actually created some problems. I think that generally it works really well but after working w/ wireless components I don't really like things being wired. It creates extra work for me on a regular basis when someone damages or accidentally undoes a wire and I have to pull parts off a bike to get at a junction box. I've got a Di1 bike in right now that has even got Shimano baffled as to why it won't work. I had one of their techs try a bunch of stuff via remote connection and he had no idea what was wrong. With SRAM if something doesn't work you replace it. No mystery. Their CS has always been great and it has actually forced Shimano to improve theirs.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    And let's not also forget the +$200 dollar tool to put a stupid pin in their chain. That is hilarious, as no one but Campy even uses a pin. Instead of silly 12 group they should have released a SR pedal and a chain that uses a link (it is the 21st century after all). I think if not for their excellent wheels they would be gone.
    I recently bought an 11-speed Dura Ace chain for my wife's bike. It came with a pin.

    There are alternative to the $200 Campy tool, like the Lezyne tool for around $35.

    But why on earth would you use anything but a master link?

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    I recently bought an 11-speed Dura Ace chain for my wife's bike. It came with a pin.

    There are alternative to the $200 Campy tool, like the Lezyne tool for around $35.

    But why on earth would you use anything but a master link?
    There are people out there, today, who adhere to pinning a chain as the strongest method of joining and it therefore always being preferable.

    Many out there commit the high-sin of re-using supposedly "non-reusable" masterlinks in cleaning a chain for example....ZOMFG I'm GOING TO DIE. Similar religion.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    Thanks for your overview. Its valuable to members here because you see more than the average consumer. Everybody lauds Sram's customer service. Never heard it diss'ed in fact.

    I think the shifting protocol for E-tap is very clever and intuitive. Wasn't sure about the reliability. Some have had no problems and others not so lucky but I am sure the same applies to Di2 like you reference and also Campy EPS. Head wrench at my local shop says he prefer Di2 to Etap based upon reliability....but I am sure opinions vary based upon experience.

    Last question...since you prefer Sram, if you were to build a bike for personal riding, would you build with Red mechanical or Etap?

    Thanks
    PS: just so you know, my love for Campy is purely based upon the ergonomics and shifting protocol. I haven't spent enough time on Sram Double tap to know if I would like it as much. Truthfully for me, it is based upon hand comfort. Pressure on my hands throughtout a ride....my hands feel much better riding Campy. Simple as that. I don't wear gloves unless its cold. Everything else doesn't matter so much to me. I prefer Shimano cranks in fact...and run Shimano cassettes and brakes and chains. For me, its all about how my hands feel riding the bike. I think Campy is pretty to look at but if Shimano or Sram were more comfortable, I would be on it. Aesthetics don't matter to me as much as feel. I like the snap in Campy's shifts but I also like Shimano's shifting. I was relatively unimpressed with any benefit of Di2 and thought the buttons are too close together and also the hoods and levers aren't as comfortable as Campy.

    My opinion and much of this stuff is based upon personal preference. I don't even match my groupsets because I don't care. My shifters never match my derailleurs...only care about pull ratio.
    I also think the way that Campy has designed their shifters makes a LOT of sense. Totally separating the 2 functions was a great idea. The Campy levers are definitely very comfortable.
    I currently have mechanical Red22 on my cross/gravel bike, with canti brakes. If I were to get another bike it would be Red etap/hydro for sure.
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  10. #35
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    IIRC, the German Tour magazine did some in-depth testing of the major component manufacturers about a decade ago and Campy cassette cogs had the highest Rockwell hardness.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    I recently bought an 11-speed Dura Ace chain for my wife's bike. It came with a pin.
    Must have been the 9000 version not 9100. New version comes with Shimano's new master link.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bremerradkurier View Post
    IIRC, the German Tour magazine did some in-depth testing of the major component manufacturers about a decade ago and Campy cassette cogs had the highest Rockwell hardness.
    They ought to for what they charge for those things.

  13. #38
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    "The news of my death is highly exaggerated"

    In the US "nobody" understands the quintessial Italian family business model. I would not be surprised if Campag outlasts Shimano and especially SRAM.
    They do anything just to win a salami in ridiculous races. I take my gear out of the car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of those lives shocks me. It was the illest of times, it was the dopest of times. And we looked damn good. Actually the autobus broke down somewhere on the Mortirolo.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by kbwh View Post
    "The news of my death is highly exaggerated"

    In the US "nobody" understands the quintessial Italian family business model. I would not be surprised if Campag outlasts Shimano and especially SRAM.

    Shimano would still have their angling branch-apparently electronics are a thing there too.

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  15. #40
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    I have always admired Campy.
    All of my bikes back in early 80's had Campy Nuovo Record.
    My pet cat was named - Campy.
    On my current bike I proudly put Campy Chorus 11 speed on it and was sorely disappointed.
    It never shifted right despite having been worked on by a master mechanic.
    I ended up replacing it with SRAM which works perfectly. So yes Campy is toast as far as I am concerned.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnbrown View Post
    I have always admired Campy.
    All of my bikes back in early 80's had Campy Nuovo Record.
    My pet cat was named - Campy.
    On my current bike I proudly put Campy Chorus 11 speed on it and was sorely disappointed.
    It never shifted right despite having been worked on by a master mechanic.
    I ended up replacing it with SRAM which works perfectly. So yes Campy is toast as far as I am concerned.
    Yeah, me too.

    I went with the best in '82, Campy Super Record, and never looked back. 10 years ago stuck a Deore rear derailleur on the commuter because the limit screws on the Campy replacement, name escapes me, would't narrow down to the ancient 6 speed freewheel spread. The "Record" steel BB and headset, crank, and wheel hubs, are original, 75K miles and running.

    All bearings feel sooo smooth, the sensual hallmark that Shimano misses. Campy engineers know what bike riding is all about, what Grant Petersen calls, "manual bikes." Campy designs the lever hoods to fit the hand comfortably and intentionally leaves audible clicks in, so rider knows the damn thing is shifting. Shimano wants to impress the rider by taking this manual feel away. What fun is that?

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kbwh View Post
    "The news of my death is highly exaggerated"

    In the US "nobody" understands the quintessial Italian family business model. I would not be surprised if Campag outlasts Shimano and especially SRAM.
    Quintessential my @ss. I'm italian,I live in Italy and I work in the family business,statements like that may have been true 50 years ago,nowadays you have to be just marketing marketing marketing sell sell sell our you're going to die. Uh,and all that thanks to globalization...

  18. #43
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    seems i get more of a sense around campagnolo wheels than their group sets lately. and while i still see fans of the group sets , that never seems to extend to their electronic group sets where it seems to be shimano vs sram. i'll count the wheels as a success though. i hear more excitement about boras than enve and shimano offerings these days.

    i can't imagine solving the oem problem unless they totally rework their business model which means dropping the price point, moving production to asia and possibly bringing in an outside investor. and that has risks too, like alienating their traditional base

  19. #44
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    Most people simply buy a complete group set through their local bike shop

    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    To me, Campy is cheap. I often read about how expensive Campy is.
    I just built a bike with Campy and Shimano. I mix groupsets because I don't believe that you should ride the same brand of saddle or stem that you do tires. I know an extreme example to make a point.

    You don't have to match groupsets either. With Campy you don't have to ride 'all Chorus' for example...or all Record. Many just don't understand.

    Pricing for my new build:
    Chorus 11 speed Shifters 2018 off ebay, new in a box 'with Campy cableset: $268

    Campy Potenza Short cage Rear Derailleur: $98 out of ProBikeKit in Europe new in a box

    Campy Chorus front derailleur 2018: $70...can even go cheaper and choose Veloce which also has high pull


    Those are the basic components of Campy that gives you the Campy riding experience.

    Most of the time its cheaper than Ultegra or Sram Force...or equivalent. A Potenza rear mech is identical to Super Record only is made from Al and not Carbon Fiber. Not only $200 cheaper, but I prefer Al for my derailleurs all day, everyday to carbon fiber as I don't care about the 10 grams weight save. I prefer Al cages over CF..and Al derailleur bodies. Chorus shifters have carbon fiber levers which I appreciate due to feel in cold temp mostly but carbon feels a bit better in hand.. Again, the shifters are a work of art. They are pure genius and what makes Campy. Honestly, I am a fan of Shimano derailleurs. I would be perfectly fine to run Shimano derailleur too. They don't work with the pull ratio of Campy shifter so this scenario is out.

    So, its a myth than Campy costs more.
    I generally prefer Shimano cranksets which I run on two Campy bikes. To me, they are best in the industry. Campy UltraTorque cranks are wonderful and as good...but harder to mount due to less forgiveness in wide array of bottom brackets. I like Shimano freehubs on Campy wheels, Shimano Ultegra cassettes which are cheap. Many know that for all intents, Shimano 11s cog spacing is identical to Campy. It isn't but in my experience works fine. Ultegra chains are OK...KMC are better and prefer Shimano R8000 dual pivot brakes to Campy skeleton brakes. To me Shimano makes some stuff better or preferred to Campy that works fine with Campy.

    A counterpoint to the often referred to 'cost of Campy'. Higher cost of Campy is because people don't know any better. From ten feet away, an observer can't tell the difference between a Super Record bike and my bike and on the bike there isn't any difference either.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    To me, Campy is cheap.
    Pricing for my new build:
    Pricing for my new build:
    Chorus 11 speed Shifters 2018 off ebay, new in a box 'with Campy cableset: $268

    Campy Potenza Short cage Rear Derailleur: $98 out of ProBikeKit in Europe new in a box

    Campy Chorus front derailleur 2018: $70...can even go cheaper and choose Veloce which also has high pull

    Most of the time its cheaper than Ultegra or Sram Force...or equivalent.
    About 20 seconds of searching indicates you are wrong.

    https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-Ul...SABEgJvvvD_BwE

    https://www.wiggle.com/shimano-ulteg...-derailleur-1/

    https://www.competitivecyclist.com/s...iABEgLmpfD_BwE

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trek_5200 View Post
    Most people simply buy a complete group set through their local bike shop
    I dont know if this is true or not but I would never buy a Campy group from my LBS. The cost compared to mail order (from the UK) is staggeringly high

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyrleftus View Post
    No...my build is closer to DA. Your shifter price didn't include cableset which is about the same between Campy and Shimano...about 40 bux.



    Your post reflects 20 seconds of thinking...lol.
    And yours doesn't.

    129 + 40 = 169 and that is 99 less than 268.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trek_5200 View Post
    Most people simply buy a complete group set through their local bike shop
    I'd venture to guess that people who don't buy their bikes off the rack find their groups someplace on the internet. Over the past decade, I've bought half a dozen Campy and Shimano groups from outfits in the UK. Their prices are easily half what my LBS could offer.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    I dont know if this is true or not but I would never buy a Campy group from my LBS. The cost compared to mail order (from the UK) is staggeringly high
    A mechanic at my LBS said to me 'you don't want to buy a Campy group from us. You can probably find it cheaper than what we can buy it for'.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    I'd venture to guess that people who don't buy their bikes off the rack find their groups someplace on the internet. Over the past decade, I've bought half a dozen Campy and Shimano groups from outfits in the UK. Their prices are easily half what my LBS could offer.
    A lot of people interested enough to frequent a bike forum will, but would say most that are into the sport including all the women riders I know unless coached by men in their lives, will buy off the rack.

    Its just like computers. Most won't build their own computer but I will.

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