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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Irons View Post
    Really? 35 mph? I take it you would rather pedal down hills than just get in a tight tuck and coast? You would actually be faster in the tuck.
    Yes I would. Tight tucks are painful with my neck and limited flexibility. Besides, soft pedaling a downhill after a stiff climb is better for the legs. And since there is virtually no load on a downhill, a higher gear works better. I'm not racing so I don't care whether I'm faster one way or the other.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Yes I would. Tight tucks are painful with my neck and limited flexibility. Besides, soft pedaling a downhill after a stiff climb is better for the legs. And since there is virtually no load on a downhill, a higher gear works better. I'm not racing so I don't care whether I'm faster one way or the other.
    Really? Wow, so you canít use the drops at all? You must ride in a very upright position and be set up for that. Thatís rough. Iíll have a 1-2 gear difference riding into a headwind by being disciplined about my bike posture in the drops. As for soft pedaling, that doesnít make sense to me. How is it better? Typically in early spring Iíll do a handful of rides, including climbs, with a goal of sub 130 HR. Itís a good lesson on where you waste energy IME. Recovering is processing lactic acid. Keeping your upper body and arms relaxed for instance, can go further than youíd think in helping keep your HR down. Nice long lactic acid processing runs, those arms... Even tense shoulders will raise the HR. Soft pedaling a descent toward better recovery makes no sense. Reducing muscle tightness maybe? Nope, if itís a climb worth recovering from than clearing acid is all that matters and that will be accomplished far more efficiently in a tuck, even a crappy one. The idea of soft pedaling toward recovery is aimed more at DOMS IME, not mid-ride.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  3. #28
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    I agree that soft pedaling downhill is better than coasting. It keeps the blood flowing and when you hit the next hill you don't have to spin up, just start laying the power down. And I use almost always every gear I got, 50/34-11/34 on every ride, it's hilly around here!
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Really? Wow, so you canít use the drops at all? You must ride in a very upright position and be set up for that.
    I never use the drops, that would be excruciatingly painful. Usually the hoods and occasionally the straight part of the bar.

    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    As for soft pedaling, that doesnít make sense to me. How is it better?

    .......Reducing muscle tightness maybe?
    Precisely.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    I agree that soft pedaling downhill is better than coasting. It keeps the blood flowing and when you hit the next hill you don't have to spin up, just start laying the power down. And I use almost always every gear I got, 50/34-11/34 on every ride, it's hilly around here!
    That just doesnít follow the physiology.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Irons View Post
    Really? 35 mph? I take it you would rather pedal down hills than just get in a tight tuck and coast? You would actually be faster in the tuck.
    The usefulness of a 50-11 (or other large) gear is not on downhills where you can coast at 35 mph. The usefulness is on lesser downhills where you can coast at 25 mph, but want to go 35 mph.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    I'm running a 46x30 on a bike and like it, it's like a 1x with a granny. I rarely use a 50 tooth chainring with an 11 or 12 tooth rear cog so I didn't see a point. I now have more useable gears.
    I was running 50x34 on my old bike and when it was time to upgrade, I went 46x30 (WI). Pleasantly surprised that I could live in the big ring for all the routes in my area. Maybe 2 years since I've used the granny gear, and it was just to check if the FD still worked.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    "Reducing muscle tightness maybe?"

    Precisely.
    That's right. Soft pedaling also helps pump the lactic acid out of the muscles. If you're dehydrated, soft pedaling helps prevent cramps.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    I realize that in the Cat 7 world of MUP chasing and fantasy rides quick shifting is very important and 44/22 is all anyone would ever need for those monster daydream climbs.

    But in the real world where people ride fast and/or competitively; needing to shift in the front "at speed" is quite rare (as is losing half a revolution to do it mattering) and the need for gears lower than 44/22 is not rare at all for those who might actually climb not just post about it on the internet.

    But I do realize that losing half a pedal stroke to shift could make or break getting by a dog walker in time to beat someone to the next crosswalk so whatever works for you.
    Eddy was fond of 44 tooth inner rings, y'know. He used them in the mountains with 22-25 in back. Shifting in front at speed is an option no longer available with 14-16 tooth jumps, so y'all shift in the back instead.

    Look, I was just experimenting, not trying to prove anything, and am just reminding y'all it wasn't done with 34-32s, and everyone made it to the top of the hills, some faster than others.

    So we have two here who use their 50-11, not motoring along the flats, but descending mountains? Just for grins, huh? When going into a tuck increases speed about 2 mph? Ok.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Eddy was fond of 44 tooth inner rings, y'know.
    Very few of us are Eddy.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Eddy was fond of 44 tooth inner rings, y'know. He used them in the mountains with 22-25 in back. Shifting in front at speed is an option no longer available with 14-16 tooth jumps, so y'all shift in the back instead.

    Look, I was just experimenting, not trying to prove anything, and am just reminding y'all it wasn't done with 34-32s, and everyone made it to the top of the hills, some faster than others.
    And if Eddy were racing today he wouldn't be fond of a 44. Because he'd be a nobody getting his @ss handed to him in the mountains.


    So we have two here who use their 50-11, not motoring along the flats, but descending mountains? Just for grins, huh? When going into a tuck increases speed about 2 mph? Ok.


    A 50-11 @ 90rpm =32mph. You don't need to descend a mountain to go 32mph. Ok, maybe you do. I don't.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    A 50-11 @ 90rpm =32mph. You don't need to descend a mountain to go 32mph. Ok, maybe you do. I don't.
    How long can you realistically turn over a 50-11 on the flats? For miles at a time, or just a couple of hundred yard sprint? If only for a sprint, are you racing?
    I ask because if only in a sprint, and not racing, a 50-11 gear is as useful as a 44 tooth small ring.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    How long can you realistically turn over a 50-11 on the flats?
    I dunno.

    I'm talking about descents. Like I said... you don't need a mountain.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    I ask because if only in a sprint, and not racing, a 50-11 gear is as useful as a 44 tooth small ring.
    no comprende.

    Sprints last 100 yards or whatever. Using the small ring with bad wind or climbing can last hours.
    There's no comparing the usefulness of a single gear with 11 or them (or however many combinations you can use with the small ring).

    But whatever. He uses 50-11.

    Who really cares how often. Perhaps, like me, he just knows he uses it and doesn't really give a crap if some stranger on the intrawebs does math with a higher cadence than he wants to use or says he should tuck instead.

    I find myself using it pretty often too. Don't have a computer so couldn't tell you how long or at what speed or cadence. I find it bizarre that anyone would give a crap.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Eddy was fond of 44 tooth inner rings, y'know.
    .....and Babe Ruth was fond of a 50 ounce bat. So strangers on the internet should have no problem getting around on a fast ball.

    .....and who ever decades before him was fond of single speed bike that weighed a ton. I guess by you logic Eddy wasn't that strong because he didn't use what had been proven less efficient.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    A 50-11 @ 90rpm =32mph. You don't need to descend a mountain to go 32mph. Ok, maybe you do. I don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    How long can you realistically turn over a 50-11 on the flats? For miles at a time...
    50-11 at 83 RPM => 30 mph; 30mph on a -2% slope requires about 250 W (80kg rider). Many riders can hold 250 W for many, many miles.
    Last edited by tomato coupe; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:57 AM.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    50-11 at 83 RPM => 30 mph; 30mph on a -2% slope requires about 250 W (80kg rider).
    Bingo.

    I don't know anyone who pulls a tuck on a -2%-5% slope. But I just got back from a ride where I gave it a shot. I could get up to about 20-22mph.
    Whereas pedaling in 50/11 was pretty easy to go 30+mph. Why someone would want to tuck instead is beyond me

    This ain't rocket science stuff. Pretty normal for anyone who doesn't ride on a pancake.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    50-11 at 83 RPM => 30 mph; 30mph on a -2% slope requires about 250 W (80kg rider). Many riders can hold 250 W for many, many miles.
    That sounds about right to me. Pretty much the same idea with a decent tail wind or good pace line too.

    All of which are situations where I like to take a break from higher cadence too thus very often making use of my highest gear (50x11) quite often.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    That just doesnít follow the physiology.
    So if your a wt lifter going for the heavy load, your saying that lifting some smaller wts to get the blood vessels open and the heart rate up is not something?
    There are other sports with similar problems but this seems the easiest example.
    Football teams don't warm up before play? ..is another, could be a million more.
    The downhills around here are long (like 10 miles), with some rollers inserted. If you stop pedaling on the dh, when the rollers hit, do you warm up again?
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    That just doesnít follow the physiology.
    Intuitively it would seem that resting as much as possible would be most effective at clearing lactate. But the research in this area is pretty extensive and there's a lot of evidence that active recovery is better than passive recovery for clearing lactate.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    So if your a wt lifter going for the heavy load, your saying that lifting some smaller wts to get the blood vessels open and the heart rate up is not something?
    There are other sports with similar problems but this seems the easiest example.
    Football teams don't warm up before play? ..is another, could be a million more.
    The downhills around here are long (like 10 miles), with some rollers inserted. If you stop pedaling on the dh, when the rollers hit, do you warm up again?
    The idea of warming up has questionable science supporting it. You will recover more efficiently by not issues by those muscles.


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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    The idea of warming up has questionable science supporting it. You will recover more efficiently by not issues by those muscles.


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    And the idea of not warming up has unquestioned science supporting it?

    Most discussions about stretching and warming up are a classic case of people just finding whatever "science" or lack thereof that supports what they like to do or no do.

    Some people feel better when warming up some don't bother because they either don't feel like doing it or they haven't noticed benefits.
    Pretty easy for either camp to find supposed science or question existing science that supports what they like to do.
    Whatever, some people feel they benefit from warming up and some don't.

    I know throwing a baseball isn't cycling but it's really hard to imagine anyone who's ever done so, which I assume it pretty close to 100% of Americans, can't see at least some benefit to stretching or warming up before going hard.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    And the idea of not warming up has unquestioned science supporting it?

    Most discussions about stretching and warming up are a classic case of people just finding whatever "science" or lack thereof that supports what they like to do or no do.

    Some people feel better when warming up some don't bother because they either don't feel like doing it or they haven't noticed benefits.
    Pretty easy for either camp to find supposed science or question existing science that supports what they like to do.
    Whatever, some people feel they benefit from warming up and some don't.
    Yes.


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    So..... If I was going to lift a car and turn it over (ha!), it doesn't matter if my heart rate is elevated over 80, or my muscles are stretched and relaxed, or I've done some preliminary pulls to get everything going?
    .... I kinda lost track in these discussions.

    For me, from my experience, if I'm going to do a major effort, I need to get everything going and loose before I attempt. I never, never, ... again never have good results on a major hill climb just hoping out of the car, getting on the bike, and hitting it. I always blow up even if I'm trying to keep everything under control.
    If I do that, after I blow up I'm done for the day. If I warm up & get going I think (IMO) that I'm stronger in 20-30 min after I have had a couple of hard attempts, and when the big hill hits, my endurance at the attempt seems way better. Am I missing something?

    As an example, on a cycling TT (remember that is what we are focusing on), I have never seen Contrador/etc. not on a spin bike before the attempt. He is always there warming up.
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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    So..... If I was going to lift a car and turn it over (ha!), it doesn't matter if my heart rate is elevated over 80, or my muscles are stretched and relaxed, or I've done some preliminary pulls to get everything going?
    .... I kinda lost track in these discussions.

    For me, from my experience, if I'm going to do a major effort, I need to get everything going and loose before I attempt. I never, never, ... again never have good results on a major hill climb just hoping out of the car, getting on the bike, and hitting it. I always blow up even if I'm trying to keep everything under control.
    If I do that, after I blow up I'm done for the day. If I warm up & get going I think (IMO) that I'm stronger in 20-30 min after I have had a couple of hard attempts, and when the big hill hits, my endurance at the attempt seems way better. Am I missing something?

    As an example, on a cycling TT (remember that is what we are focusing on), I have never seen Contrador/etc. not on a spin bike before the attempt. He is always there warming up.
    We are physiologically designed to respond to crisis immediately. I havenít read scholarship on this topic in 4 years so maybe Iím off, but there was no clear benefit in the lit as I remember. Iím not arguing against the practice by any means, or for it... There are elite runners that do not warm up, although I always see cyclists warming up, which is weird with slow rolling starts?


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