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  1. #51
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    There is no 'slow warming up' on a TT or ITT.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb View Post
    Intuitively it would seem that resting as much as possible would be most effective at clearing lactate. But the research in this area is pretty extensive and there's a lot of evidence that active recovery is better than passive recovery for clearing lactate.
    I havenít seen it. Do me and us a favor and post some high quality peer reviewed scholarship supporting the practice. Iíd love to learn something. Please donít post what the replies here are like on the subject (no offense to anyone, this isnít a journal, itís a cycling forum, your opinions are interesting and often useful) where 100 athletes are asked if warming up is useful and 90 say it is.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  3. #53
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    So, I guess you will not comment on whether the moon is cheese or not? Maybe it's gouda!
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    So, I guess you will not comment on whether the moon is cheese or not? Maybe it's gouda!
    Is that for me? I canít tell on Tapatalk. If it is, it doesnít make a lick of sense. It looks more like dietary forgot the sprinkles for your oatmeal this morning?


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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    I havenít seen it. Do me and us a favor and post some high quality peer reviewed scholarship supporting the practice. Iíd love to learn something. Please donít post what the replies here are like on the subject (no offense to anyone, this isnít a journal, itís a cycling forum, your opinions are interesting and often useful) where 100 athletes are asked if warming up is useful and 90 say it is.
    Are you going to provide peer-reviewed journal articles to support your position?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    Are you going to provide peer-reviewed journal articles to support your position?
    Probably not. You read the previous posts, Iím not arguing for or against the practice. It just isnít well supported in my previous reading. Please post supporting scholarship. Iíd love to learn something.


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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    Are you going to provide peer-reviewed journal articles to support your position?
    This is recent. It supports all the other lit I read a few years ago. No difference in performance.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...2/#!po=71.8750

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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    This is recent. It supports all the other lit I read a few years ago. No difference in performance.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...2/#!po=71.8750

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    OK... I say chill, I like your post's better when you're not doing your Doctor Falsetti impersonation.

  9. #59
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    That is an interesting article, which supports your position.
    I just find it very hard to believe that almost all sporting activities of the highest performance level are wasting their time and resources preforming warmup drills and stretching before events. This is across all levels of professional and world class athletes in the olympics. I just can't understand that. Amazing!

    The world is a lot different than I ever imagined, I'm getting off at the next stop.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    That is an interesting article, which supports your position.
    I just find it very hard to believe that almost all sporting activities of the highest performance level are wasting their time and resources preforming warmup drills and stretching before events. This is across all levels of professional and world class athletes in the olympics. I just can't understand that. Amazing!
    You still struggle to get it. It isnít my position. I donít give 2 sh*ts. Iím talking about what credible research suggests.


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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by rudge66 View Post
    OK... I say chill, I like your post's better when you're not doing your Doctor Falsetti impersonation.
    That whole evidence thing is such a Debbie Downer.


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  12. #62
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    Oh, I understand your position and get it. ...and understand YDGAS.
    My position is from my personal experience riding a bike and how I feel and how I respond and what I see. That paper totally contradicts a lot of observable info which I see, & I understand that everyone may be wrong, but I'm usually right.

    Who is Debbie Downer?
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    Oh, I understand your position and get it. ...and understand YDGAS.
    My position is from my personal experience riding a bike and how I feel and how I respond and what I see. That paper totally contradicts a lot of observable info which I see, & I understand that everyone may be wrong, but I'm usually right.

    Who is Debbie Downer?
    Thatís great, good for you. You are clearly allergic to science and research. Thatís cool, ignorance has its place. Enjoy.


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  14. #64
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    Prove that we exist, I dare you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb View Post
    ... the research in this area is pretty extensive and there's a lot of evidence that active recovery is better than passive recovery for clearing lactate.
    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    I havenít seen it. Do me and us a favor and post some high quality peer reviewed scholarship supporting the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    Are you going to provide peer-reviewed journal articles to support your position?
    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    This is recent. It supports all the other lit I read a few years ago. No difference in performance.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...2/#!po=71.8750
    The cited article has nothing to do with clearing lactic acid.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Thatís great, good for you. You are clearly allergic to science and research. Thatís cool, ignorance has its place. Enjoy.


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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    Prove that we exist, I dare you.
    So what are you saying here, that there's a real possibility that this is just a bad dream that I'm having?
    Too old to ride plastic

  18. #68
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    While do'in my sukodu, I came up with an issue with your 'paper'.
    It seems it only addresses max muscle power over a short period. Please provide a peer reviewed paper, addressing maximum work output over a minimum of 1 hour, comparing with/without pre-warmup/stretching.
    I think i crushed his comfort zone.
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    The cited article has nothing to do with clearing lactic acid.
    And: "whether pre-exercise stretching contributes significantly to injury prevention is still unclear."

    I don't know what other people were talking about when they support the benefits of warming up and/or stretching but I was thinking of injury prevention mostly.
    Anecdote but again I think anyone who's ever played baseball can tell you that throwing your best fastball on the first throw is pretty stupid.

    So a study to tell us things are unclear? Great.

    And a study of just college students? Again an anecdote but anyone who's much older than that can tell you things change with regard to doing extreme efforts cold as we get older.

  20. #70
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    Great discussion. Iím riding aN Ultegra 8000 50/34 setup and itís delicious. Really nice shifting. Going to build another bike and now Iím thinking could this 10 tooth jump be even better? I donít know how but it might be a big surprise in the quest for mechanical perfection. However, like itís been stated, when you want that 50-11 you want it and you glad you have it....

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    I havenít seen it. Do me and us a favor and post some high quality peer reviewed scholarship supporting the practice. Iíd love to learn something. Please donít post what the replies here are like on the subject (no offense to anyone, this isnít a journal, itís a cycling forum, your opinions are interesting and often useful) where 100 athletes are asked if warming up is useful and 90 say it is.
    Sure, here's a few:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20544484

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16320173

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8471992

    These are just abstracts so you may or may not be able to access full text docs depending on what journals you subscribe to, but they give some insight. The first two sentences of the abstract in the last link are informative: "The advantage of active over passive recovery from long and intermediate duration exercise is well documented. Success has been attributed to metabolite washout and/or lactate (La) utilization by the active musculature."

    You can also find research that shows that passive recovery is better in certain situations:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25412134 - this link shows that during 6 repeated sprints, passive recovery was better for sprint #2 but not for sprints #5 and 6.

    There's also this study which showed that active recovery is superior to passive recovery but there was no difference in blood lactate.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8954294

    Hopefully at this point people know that lactate in not a waste product but an important fuel for the body. Blood lactate kinetics have long been used as a marker for exercise intensity but in of itself lactate does no cause fatigue.

    It seems that this thread has kinda' developed into two different discussions:

    1. Best practices for within workout recovery.
    2. Whether or not warm-ups are effective.

    For each of these questions one of the problems with relying solely on the literature is that there are so many different variables that could be studied for each one.

    To name a few:
    1. - intensity and duration of the work, and the recovery intervals
    - training status of the participants
    - exercise modality (although clearly cycling is of most importance here)
    2. - Which effect of a warm-up is being studied: thermal, metabolic, psychological, etc.
    - intensity and duration of the event
    - warmup protocol
    - again, exercise modality with the same caveat as above

    Research, in order to be well controlled is usually conducted in a pretty defined range of variables that don't always replicate what we do while we're on our bikes.

    Sometimes research plays catch up with what smart, hard working athletes have discovered over the years. In other words, athletes develop their own protocols based on their own experiences and science discovers why it may or may not work later on.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by saddle tramp View Post
    Great discussion. Iím riding aN Ultegra 8000 50/34 setup and itís delicious. Really nice shifting. Going to build another bike and now Iím thinking could this 10 tooth jump be even better? I donít know how but it might be a big surprise in the quest for mechanical perfection. However, like itís been stated, when you want that 50-11 you want it and you glad you have it....
    My take is if you are really bored and need a project to hold you through this pandemic, then go for it. However, if you think your "quest for mechanic perfection" will be satisfied by this project, don't be too disappointed when it's only just as good.
    "If someone needs 200 rolls of toilet paper for a 14-day quarantine, they probably should have made a doctor's appointment way before the COVID-19 outbreak." -- Unknown

    "With
    bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."
    -- DCGriz, RBR.




  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb View Post
    Sure, here's a few:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20544484

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16320173

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8471992

    These are just abstracts so you may or may not be able to access full text docs depending on what journals you subscribe to, but they give some insight. The first two sentences of the abstract in the last link are informative: "The advantage of active over passive recovery from long and intermediate duration exercise is well documented. Success has been attributed to metabolite washout and/or lactate (La) utilization by the active musculature."

    You can also find research that shows that passive recovery is better in certain situations:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25412134 - this link shows that during 6 repeated sprints, passive recovery was better for sprint #2 but not for sprints #5 and 6.

    There's also this study which showed that active recovery is superior to passive recovery but there was no difference in blood lactate.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8954294

    Hopefully at this point people know that lactate in not a waste product but an important fuel for the body. Blood lactate kinetics have long been used as a marker for exercise intensity but in of itself lactate does no cause fatigue.

    It seems that this thread has kinda' developed into two different discussions:

    1. Best practices for within workout recovery.
    2. Whether or not warm-ups are effective.

    For each of these questions one of the problems with relying solely on the literature is that there are so many different variables that could be studied for each one.

    To name a few:
    1. - intensity and duration of the work, and the recovery intervals
    - training status of the participants
    - exercise modality (although clearly cycling is of most importance here)
    2. - Which effect of a warm-up is being studied: thermal, metabolic, psychological, etc.
    - intensity and duration of the event
    - warmup protocol
    - again, exercise modality with the same caveat as above

    Research, in order to be well controlled is usually conducted in a pretty defined range of variables that don't always replicate what we do while we're on our bikes.

    Sometimes research plays catch up with what smart, hard working athletes have discovered over the years. In other words, athletes develop their own protocols based on their own experiences and science discovers why it may or may not work later on.
    This is awesome, thanks. Iím looking forward to checking these out when I get home later. Abstracts are plenty good for pointing out a direction or to refine the subject search. This is impressive!


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    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb View Post
    Sure, here's a few:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20544484

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16320173

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8471992

    These are just abstracts so you may or may not be able to access full text docs depending on what journals you subscribe to, but they give some insight. The first two sentences of the abstract in the last link are informative: "The advantage of active over passive recovery from long and intermediate duration exercise is well documented. Success has been attributed to metabolite washout and/or lactate (La) utilization by the active musculature."

    You can also find research that shows that passive recovery is better in certain situations:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25412134 - this link shows that during 6 repeated sprints, passive recovery was better for sprint #2 but not for sprints #5 and 6.

    There's also this study which showed that active recovery is superior to passive recovery but there was no difference in blood lactate.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8954294

    Hopefully at this point people know that lactate in not a waste product but an important fuel for the body. Blood lactate kinetics have long been used as a marker for exercise intensity but in of itself lactate does no cause fatigue.

    It seems that this thread has kinda' developed into two different discussions:

    1. Best practices for within workout recovery.
    2. Whether or not warm-ups are effective.

    For each of these questions one of the problems with relying solely on the literature is that there are so many different variables that could be studied for each one.

    To name a few:
    1. - intensity and duration of the work, and the recovery intervals
    - training status of the participants
    - exercise modality (although clearly cycling is of most importance here)
    2. - Which effect of a warm-up is being studied: thermal, metabolic, psychological, etc.
    - intensity and duration of the event
    - warmup protocol
    - again, exercise modality with the same caveat as above

    Research, in order to be well controlled is usually conducted in a pretty defined range of variables that don't always replicate what we do while we're on our bikes.

    Sometimes research plays catch up with what smart, hard working athletes have discovered over the years. In other words, athletes develop their own protocols based on their own experiences and science discovers why it may or may not work later on.
    Great stuff. Ok, so my interest has been in warning up not so much clearing lactic acid. But I am now interested in clearing lactic acid research, thank you! Back to that... I realize protocols for studying warming up are not easy, as you mention. What I recall, in taking in a bunch of decent quality studies, was that, across the whole, with the limitations, it was really unclear if there was a significant advantage. Obviously, the task being performed may also have a significant impact on advantages? If we know that, but I donít think we do. I agree that athletes will develop practices that support success. But I donít agree wholeheartedly. Does grabbing your balls, spitting and kicking dirt before stepping into the batters box improve performance? Did eating chocolate cake for cyclists back in the day? (That really was a thing right?) I think athletes will fall into superstition and foolishness as easily as they will practices that support success. But thatís a different topic. Iíll leave that with Joe Friel who said (poorly paraphrased) athletes left to themselves never train hard enough on their hard days or easy enough on their easy days.

    Iím off to read up on clearing lactic acid. It looks less muddy than warming up literature but still muddy enough to be interesting. If you or anyone else is interested in warming up Iíd like to see what you dig up.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Great stuff. Ok, so my interest has been in warning up not so much clearing lactic acid. But I am now interested in clearing lactic acid research, thank you! Back to that... I realize protocols for studying warming up are not easy, as you mention. What I recall, in taking in a bunch of decent quality studies, was that, across the whole, with the limitations, it was really unclear if there was a significant advantage. Obviously, the task being performed may also have a significant impact on advantages? If we know that, but I donít think we do. I agree that athletes will develop practices that support success. But I donít agree wholeheartedly. Does grabbing your balls, spitting and kicking dirt before stepping into the batters box improve performance? Did eating chocolate cake for cyclists back in the day? (That really was a thing right?) I think athletes will fall into superstition and foolishness as easily as they will practices that support success. But thatís a different topic. Iíll leave that with Joe Friel who said (poorly paraphrased) athletes left to themselves never train hard enough on their hard days or easy enough on their easy days.

    Iím off to read up on clearing lactic acid. It looks less muddy than warming up literature but still muddy enough to be interesting. If you or anyone else is interested in warming up Iíd like to see what you dig up.
    Sometimes the placebo works.
    Too old to ride plastic

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