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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trek_5200 View Post
    Bikes will pedal for you.
    This reminds me of that Dave Barry article where he talked about bowling and automatic scoring. He wrote and I'll paraphrase "The next thing will be automatic bowlers so all you have to do is drink beer".
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    with all the "evolution" going on, it seems like all the bigs are converging in design in aero frames. Go figure. lol
    Aero is where the speed is at after optimizing other facets of design.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfrancois View Post
    that's why it makes sense to "refurbish" instead of "restore."

    when you refurbish or build a modded restoration, you can update or upgrade suspension (in the case of the camaro) and brakes. so you can take that original bike (or sports car) and make it "better than new."

    there's a place for the camaro. i enjoyed my '67 rs. but i prefer porsche. "there is no substitute."
    In the late '60s when Camaro and Mustang defined muscle cars, some of us snooty eastern suburbanites were choosing Euro disc braked compact cars, like MG, Triumph, Austin Healy, Jaguar, Mercedes, not to mention VW bugs, and Porsches.

    First car i owned was a '62 Austin Healy 3000, 6 cylinder engine out of the London taxi cab, 3 Swedish SU carburetors, wire spoked wheels, no side windows but sliding plastic on canvas curtains, a "windscreen" that looked added as an afterthought. A whopping 128 HP in 4 speed synchromesh.

    Being light weight, it held its own, but was no match to the American muscle cars--until, that is, you got onto some technical tarmac, and then it shined like a go cart. Lucas electrical components might have killed the brand, iMO. . Embarrassed to admit I chose the Healy over the first BMW marketed in the US, a little 2 door sedan, brand new for $2800. My cuz' drove one for 30 years, along with a Porsche 911.

    Old guys who lusted after Camaros when they were young and lustful are restoring their dream cars "better than new," that's great. I'd love to take a boring car and make the suspension handle like a race car. Instead, I bought a cheap used '88 Mercedes 4 banger, had great fun running it into the ground, and traded it in on a used '01 Mercedes 6 banger with very stabile, road hugging 4 wheel drive. It's 17 years old but only has 85,000 miles on it and no body rust.

    Both these cars have the ultimate in suspension. Cuz's 911 might have been zippier, but it didn't hold the road any better. These two handle as well at 110 mph as they do at 65, a function not only of suspension components, but also structural integrity, like a good steel bike, such as the '84 DeRosa I've ridden for 75,000 miles.

    Noticed one of the first things rebuilders do to those old Detroit muscle cars is put a cross bar atop the front shocks so the front end doesn't wander all over the place. Also amazing Detroit kept making drum brakes for so long on their performance cars.

    But none of this techie stuff is really the point. It's the associations, the dreams conjured up by those cars, the sentimental attachments guys have with their first loves.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    In the late '60s when Camaro and Mustang defined muscle cars, some of us snooty eastern suburbanites were choosing Euro disc braked compact cars, like MG, Triumph, Austin Healy, Jaguar, Mercedes, not to mention VW bugs, and Porsches.

    First car i owned was a '62 Austin Healy 3000, 6 cylinder engine out of the London taxi cab, 3 Swedish SU carburetors, wire spoked wheels, no side windows but sliding plastic on canvas curtains, a "windscreen" that looked added as an afterthought. A whopping 128 HP in 4 speed synchromesh.

    Being light weight, it held its own, but was no match to the American muscle cars--until, that is, you got onto some technical tarmac, and then it shined like a go cart. Lucas electrical components might have killed the brand, iMO. . Embarrassed to admit I chose the Healy over the first BMW marketed in the US, a little 2 door sedan, brand new for $2800. My cuz' drove one for 30 years, along with a Porsche 911.

    Old guys who lusted after Camaros when they were young and lustful are restoring their dream cars "better than new," that's great. I'd love to take a boring car and make the suspension handle like a race car. Instead, I bought a cheap used '88 Mercedes 4 banger, had great fun running it into the ground, and traded it in on a used '01 Mercedes 6 banger with very stabile, road hugging 4 wheel drive. It's 17 years old but only has 85,000 miles on it and no body rust.

    Both these cars have the ultimate in suspension. Cuz's 911 might have been zippier, but it didn't hold the road any better. These two handle as well at 110 mph as they do at 65, a function not only of suspension components, but also structural integrity, like a good steel bike, such as the '84 DeRosa I've ridden for 75,000 miles.

    Noticed one of the first things rebuilders do to those old Detroit muscle cars is put a cross bar atop the front shocks so the front end doesn't wander all over the place. Also amazing Detroit kept making drum brakes for so long on their performance cars.

    But none of this techie stuff is really the point. It's the associations, the dreams conjured up by those cars, the sentimental attachments guys have with their first loves.
    All of us older guys have some nostalgia about some classic cars that were around when we were growing up. They are fun to look at in a museum and seeing one in prestine condition (especially the same one our parents had) on the road is a real treat.

    However, the grim reality is that we seem to have forgotten how unreliable these cars were in comparison to cars of today. Not to mention that while our lungs and olfactory senses were used to it at the time, get behind one of these cars today and ewwwwwww, they stink! And I won't even get into the lack of safety features. Some only have lap belts. There is a reason annual traffic fatalities have dropped from around 55,000 in the 1970's to around 30,000 today.

    Are the "good old days" really that good, or are they just old?
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    I recall a couple of decades ago, there was talk of creating beryllium bike frames. I guess the rarity of the element, cost and hazards involved building frames, along with domination of carbon fiber did beryllium in. I seem to remember a company called Beyond Fabrication selling an alloy frame with beryllium in it.
    If I remember right, the one of the main problems was that if you did any kind of grinding in the fabrication process, those tiny particles that became airborne were toxic or caused cancer if they were inhaled. Something like that.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Lucas electrical components might have killed the brand, iMO.
    Lucas: The Prince of Darkness...

    He has left me riding home on my 1959 Royal Enfield (badged Indian Apache for the US market) at night by what looks like candlelight.

    Ignition parts? Don't get me started.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    All of us older guys have some nostalgia about some classic cars that were around when we were growing up. They are fun to look at in a museum and seeing one in prestine condition (especially the same one our parents had) on the road is a real treat.

    However, the grim reality is that we seem to have forgotten how unreliable these cars were in comparison to cars of today. Not to mention that while our lungs and olfactory senses were used to it at the time, get behind one of these cars today and ewwwwwww, they stink! And I won't even get into the lack of safety features. Some only have lap belts. There is a reason annual traffic fatalities have dropped from around 55,000 in the 1970's to around 30,000 today.

    Are the "good old days" really that good, or are they just old?
    IIRC, someone crunched out the numbers and determined a stock V6 Accord or Camry would have been competitive at early '60s 24 Hours of LeMans races, mostly due to better reliability.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bremerradkurier View Post
    IIRC, someone crunched out the numbers and determined a stock V6 Accord or Camry would have been competitive at early '60s 24 Hours of LeMans races, mostly due to better reliability.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Bremerradkurier again.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bremerradkurier View Post
    IIRC, someone crunched out the numbers and determined a stock V6 Accord or Camry would have been competitive at early '60s 24 Hours of LeMans races, mostly due to better reliability.
    haha, excellent, makes me think of Freddy Lorenzen, the Golden Boy. One of very few racers to beat Richard Petty, The King, more than a handful of times. And all of on engineering and math.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bremerradkurier View Post
    IIRC, someone crunched out the numbers and determined a stock V6 Accord or Camry would have been competitive at early '60s 24 Hours of LeMans races, mostly due to better reliability.
    Electronic ignition made a huge difference in reliability since the early '60s.

    But if the average speeds of the races back then were much above 60 mph, I'd think the Camry wouldn't finish with the winners, although it would finish the race. The suspension wouldn't perform as well at speeds above 80 mph on the curvier roads built before motorized transportation. The Camry wouldn't have the torque at speeds above 100 mph compared to a race car, would it?

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Electronic ignition made a huge difference in reliability since the early '60s.
    There is way more to improved reliabilty than the advent of electronic ignition - wasn't changing breaker points and setting the dwell fun?

    Let's not forget improvement in fuel systems, more galvanized panels slowing rust and fewer fluid leaks of all varieties just to name a few.

    Of course a Camry wouldn't win a race. You need to read Bremmeradkurier's post again more carefully to see the point he was trying to make. Hint is where he says "24 hours". Get it this time?
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Of course a Camry wouldn't win a race. You need to read Bremmeradkurier's post again more carefully to see the point he was trying to make. Hint is where he says "24 hours". Get it this time?
    I thought I got it the first time: endurance at high rpms, right? Last summer I drove my Benz 24 straight hours across the US, 1700 miles, averaging 76 mph, and got home tired, but not twisted into a pretzel or particularly fatigued mentally.

    Never had that experience in any other car, VW, Dodge, '66 Cadillac Coupe de Ville, Toyota Tercel, or that go kart Healy. Mom had two Camrys. They drove properly like a Japanese gentleman, but I never felt all that safe in them at highway speeds compared to this amazing Benz. They all had fickle personalities one way or another. Older Benzes had a reputation as great cross country "tourers." I believe suspension was a big part of that, and a slightly longer wheelbase. 4 wheel drive with computerized torque regulators gives it understeer, but man, it holds the road like a tank.

    Comfort and response. Same with bike technology, right? Add a few more gears, power up the motor, and you've got it made.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    I thought I got it the first time: endurance at high rpms, right?
    Oh you silly!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Mom had two Camrys. They drove properly like a Japanese gentleman, but I never felt all that safe in them at highway speeds compared to this amazing Benz.
    "Felt safe" doesn't sound like reality. In a collision, I'm pretty sure you would be better off in the Camry. Did the Benz have any safety features besides a seat belt? Crumple zones? Granted that a Camry has all the excitement of a Kenny G. ballad, but they are rock solid reliable work horses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    ...........but man, it holds the road like a tank.
    Sounds like it gets similar gas mileage too.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Electronic ignition made a huge difference in reliability since the early '60s.

    But if the average speeds of the races back then were much above 60 mph, I'd think the Camry wouldn't finish with the winners, although it would finish the race. The suspension wouldn't perform as well at speeds above 80 mph on the curvier roads built before motorized transportation. The Camry wouldn't have the torque at speeds above 100 mph compared to a race car, would it?
    The 18th and last placed finisher in 1962 completed 253 laps averaging 89.25 mph for the 24 hours-a 2018 Camry V6 has a governed top speed of 136mph, pulls 0.87g on a skid pad, and gets 29mpg at 75mph according to Car & Driver; engine is rated at 301 HP/267 ft. lbs.

  15. #65
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    More technology
    Too old to ride plastic

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    This type of thing could be either very useful, or data/technology overload...

    https://www.quarq.com/tire-pressure-...0w5r1ixurg4kaq
    I also think this tire pressure monitor isn't needed.

    But one of the racers on the 200 mile gravel Dirty Kanza race had them. Punctures are possible on the gravel, and the racers need to fix their own flats.

    He could see if there was actually an air leak, or was he just slowing due to the road surface. And how fast the pressure was going down -- keep going or stop and fix it.

  17. #67
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    Marketing

    Bike manufacturers always like the new thing to get riders to upgrade.

    There's a limit on how much lighter the bikes can be. But aero "styling" can help with sales, even if the differences are very tiny. It just has to look aero.


    I think it's the same way with disk brakes on road bikes. New riders all want them, even if they don't ride in the rain or do long, steep downhills.

  18. #68
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    Hopefully kids bikes that aren't half their body weight...
    Bad decisions make great stories - JP

    Spring is here... snowflakes are melting.

  19. #69
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    I would welcome several tech changes. Automatic shifting is *not* one of them....


    • Automatic fine tuning of shift indexing on electronic shift bikes.
    • Getting rid of chains and derailleurs as they exist today. Whether that be internal gearing or some other direct drive type of system
    • Improve range on Electric commuter bikes to last a week of commuting and still have enough power to get me up the steep hills on my way to work
    • Electric commuter bikes that don't weigh 30-50lb
    • Cold Weather clothing/shoe tech to improve so that I don't have to dress like an Eskimo to be able to commute to the office on a cold wet winter morning and still be warm and dry.
    • Helmets that don't suck
    • Tires that don't flat (but are still light, supple, and have good grip)
    • Wheels that stay in true (and spokes that don't break)

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chain View Post
    Hopefully kids bikes that aren't half their body weight...
    You mean bike-shaped objects made out of black gas pipe?

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bremerradkurier View Post
    IIRC, someone crunched out the numbers and determined a stock V6 Accord or Camry would have been competitive at early '60s 24 Hours of LeMans races, mostly due to better reliability.
    No. Not even close.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bremerradkurier View Post
    IIRC, someone crunched out the numbers and determined a stock V6 Accord or Camry would have been competitive at early '60s 24 Hours of LeMans races, mostly due to better reliability.
    Car nerd alert:

    I think that someone was probably only looking at things like 0-60 times and wasn't really considering the real-world demands of race use.

    A v6 Camry wouldn't finish the 24 hour of Le mans without a few modifications or driving extremely conservatively (i.e. not remotely at race pace). The stock brake pads from one of those cars wouldn't last more than a few laps, and the tires would overheat and destroy themselves pretty quick. Plus, many cars that are extremely reliable on the road will fall apart quick on the track- street cars like the Camry don't have things like oil coolers and brake ducts to keep temperatures in line under extreme use.

    While a lot of cars failed to finish LeMans in the early 60s, they were also bleeding edge designs due to the need to keep pace. Plenty of early 60s cars could have finished with no problem whatsoever if you didn't care about actually going fast.

    If you don't consider reliability, the Camry would have been way off of race pace. By 1964, cars were hitting around 190mph on the Mulsanne straight. The Camry is electronically limited to 136. Things wouldn't have been any better for the Camry in the corners, where its softly sprung suspension would have resulted in significant weight transfer and camber gain issues causing the outside shoulder of the tires to wear out extremely quickly.

    That being said, there's little question something a little sportier, like a modern Corvette would have likely have lead the pack. And, a modern v6 Camry WILL easily blow the doors off fast street cars from the early 60s like the C1 Corvette. However, it would still be slower than a Ferrari 250GTO, which was the among the fastest street cars in the world of the day.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by nealric View Post
    If you don't consider reliability, the Camry would have been way off of race pace.
    I think this was the point behind Bremmeradkurier's tongue in cheek post.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I think this was the point behind Bremmeradkurier's tongue in cheek post.
    Well yes, which is why I discussed in the first part of my post why a Camry wouldn't be a reliable race car even though it is reliable on the street.

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