• 01-18-2019
    thalo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Maybe one of these will make Dr. Waspy feel better.

    https://forums.roadbikereview.com/at...ton-cookie.jpg

    I don't thik Phil Gaimon would rate this cookie very high, so it might not have the calming effect you desire.
  • 01-19-2019
    Peter_T
    Interesting! I think that steel and Ti have a springiness that partly makes up for some of what they lack in rigidity compared to aluminum and carbon. But my impression (not from personal experience) is that when it comes to sprinting at the top level, rigidity is everything and so a better question is why not more aluminum bikes in the pro peloton? Carbon gives you that rigidity without the torture factor of aluminum on long rides.
  • 01-19-2019
    Peter_T
    I think that it's especially B. A would not deter pro teams from going with Ti if there was any advantage.
  • 01-19-2019
    Mike Overly
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    I realize this sounds like a topic that has been beaten to death, but being the new owner of a titanium bike (Litespeed T1SL), I cant help but wonder why carbon fiber is now king.

    It seems you can easily build a Ti bike that is below the UCI weight limit, and that has excellent ride characteristics. The only thing you cannot do with them is build them to be “aero”, which I think most of us agree is a bunch of BS anyway. (At a mere 30-40mph with a large, clunky object - eg the rider - atop the bike, wind resistance from the bike is comparatively negligible).

    Has anyone published any study documenting the superiority of carbon fiber over Al or Ti in the various criteria by which one would evaluate a pro-level bike (eg stiffness, rider positioning, and comfort)?

    It sounds like you’re heavily into the confirmation stage of your purchase. Enjoy the bike.
  • 01-19-2019
    SwiftSolo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    Yes and no. Yes in the sense that aero bicycle design has reached a level of maturity where design of a bare frame and a fully built bicycle have been pretty well optimized so the next frontier is to improve designs based on bike rider interactions. But it's still possible to see gross differences in performance between bikes even without a rider. It's true there are examples where the relative performance of super aero frames changes from bare bike to bike+rider, but the differences are small both before and after the rider is on board. If even moderate differences are seen between bare bikes, it's unlikely the relative performance will change when they are compared with riders present.

    I suspect that most development testing progresses from bare frame to fully built bike to bike+rider because that would go from the cleanest data that could be taken quickly, to noisier but more accurate data that takes more wind tunnel time. One caveat is the extent that this might be short circuited by CFD modeling. Sophisticated CFD could replace most or all of the first two steps.

    Based on what has been learned about mast sections for sailboats, I would think it quite possible to find a bike that performs relatively well in the wind tunnel without a rider and relatively poorly with a rider.

    The bike designed to be fastest with a rider would integrate aerodynamically with the rider--a feature that would likely be counterproductive on a riderless bike. Rules prohibit the obvious example (a fairing). However, finding anything that moves the needle in that direction (and is not prohibited by rules) is where the smart money is being spent.

    Wind tunnel testing without riders is mostly marketing propaganda--not quality science.
  • 01-19-2019
    Alaska Mike
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mike Overly View Post
    It sounds like you’re heavily into the confirmation stage of your purchase. Enjoy the bike.

    ...and that pretty much sums it up.

    I absolutely love my ti bikes. 95% of the time, I grab my Moots Compact when it's time for a ride. I have several faster/stiffer/lighter bikes, but it's the one that just plain works and performs well in all sorts of situations. Perhaps that percentage will decrease when I build my RSL, or find some other magical bike. As long as I'm enjoying the ride, it really doesn't matter what I'm riding. I try to avoid absolutes when talking about my bikes, because I just haven't experienced all that's out there. I have my preferences when it comes to bikes, and try to seek them out when contemplating new ones, but each new bike teaches me something new- sometimes good, sometimes bad.

    After all, they're just expensive kid's toys.
  • 01-20-2019
    asgelle
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    Based on what has been learned about mast sections for sailboats, I would think it quite possible to find a bike that performs relatively well in the wind tunnel without a rider and relatively poorly with a rider.

    You might think so, but sadly the data show otherwise. The Slowtwitch.com forum and Aeroweenie.com - Time Trial and Triathlon Aerodynamics Links and Data are good sources for data and (some) informed discussion. As for masts and sails, it seems a better analogy than bikes+riders would be tires and rims. In that case, there are strong interactions. However, knowing little about sailboat aerodynamics, I would be reluctant to extrapolate from bikes to boats.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    Wind tunnel testing without riders is mostly marketing propaganda--not quality science.

    That's your opinion. Again, data show otherwise.
  • 01-20-2019
    tfinator
    Dang. Wasp threads are first rate.

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
  • 01-20-2019
    kiwisimon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    Dang. Wasp threads are first rate.

    yep, bloke buys a bike, needs to talk about that bike. Only really wants to hear affirmation.
    https://media.giphy.com/media/KqLPb0IrGHwiY/giphy.gif
  • 01-20-2019
    frdfandc
  • 01-20-2019
    Lombard
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by frdfandc View Post

    Oh common! We're having so much fun with it. :)
  • 01-20-2019
    PBL450
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Oh common! We're having so much fun with it. :)

    Right, like there is so much else going on? At least Waspy made things interesting for a bit.
  • 01-25-2019
    Methodical
  • 01-25-2019
    Methodical
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    yep, bloke buys a bike, needs to talk about that bike. Only really wants to hear affirmation.
    https://media.giphy.com/media/KqLPb0IrGHwiY/giphy.gif

    This. I tried to post the same type of photo before I ever saw yours after only ready the 1s 2 pages because I knew where it was going.

    Such trivial crap.
  • 02-13-2019
    tempeteOntheRoad
    The reason is: I still ride my 1992 ti hardtail and my 2006 ti road. both with ti forks. The industry does not like that. I don't buy bikes. I change worn parts and upgrade when significant. That dont sell.
  • 02-13-2019
    cxwrench
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tempeteOntheRoad View Post
    The reason is: I still ride my 1992 ti hardtail and my 2006 ti road. both with ti forks. The industry does not like that. I don't buy bikes. I change worn parts and upgrade when significant. That dont sell.

    Please just let this thread die.
  • 02-13-2019
    Lombard
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Please just let this thread die.

    I doubt this thread could ever be resurrected to its former "glory". Dr. Waspy was the main character and I believe he has moved on.
  • 02-13-2019
    cxwrench
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I doubt this thread could ever be resurrected to its former "glory". Dr. Waspy was the main character and I believe he has moved on.

    It looks like he posted about a week ago but I'm really hoping he's found another forum to troll.
  • 02-13-2019
    Lombard
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    It looks like he posted about a week ago but I'm really hoping he's found another forum to troll.

    Oh com'on, CX, you're such a wet blanket! We need some comic relief. :D
  • 02-13-2019
    velodog
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Please just let this thread die.

    It can't, titanium is forever.
  • 02-13-2019
    pmf
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    It looks like he posted about a week ago but I'm really hoping he's found another forum to troll.

    Oh come on ... he'll be back. He usually crawls back under the bridge when he gets beaten down, but he can't resist extolling the virtues of his Litespeed T1S1 bike that he probably paid way too much for.
  • 02-13-2019
    cxwrench
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    Oh come on ... he'll be back. He usually crawls back under the bridge when he gets beaten down, but he can't resist extolling the virtues of his Litespeed T1S1 bike that he probably paid way too much for.

    You're probably right. What will be next? 'You should wrap your bar tape pulling (pick one)...Which label on your tire should be at the valve stem...if any? Should you use a torque wrench?
  • 02-13-2019
    Jay Strongbow
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    You're probably right. What will be next? 'You should wrap your bar tape pulling (pick one)...Which label on your tire should be at the valve stem...if any? Should you use a torque wrench?

    The common theme is his purchase choices are superior to anything else on the market. Despite the existence of other more 'strait' threads asking about problems he's having with said choices.

    A real piece of work for sure. I'm not sure his brand of 'out there' can be faked but tip of the cap to him if he is trolling.
  • 02-13-2019
    cxwrench
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    The common theme is his purchase choices are superior to anything else on the market. Despite the existence of other more 'strait' threads asking about problems he's having with said choices.

    A real piece of work for sure. I'm not sure his brand of 'out there' can be faked but tip of the cap to him if he is trolling.

    It does seem like a 'lifestyle' for him.
  • 02-13-2019
    Lombard
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    The common theme is his purchase choices are superior to anything else on the market. Despite the existence of other more 'strait' threads asking about problems he's having with said choices.

    A real piece of work for sure. I'm not sure his brand of 'out there' can be faked but tip of the cap to him if he is trolling.

    Color me naive, but I really don't think he's a troll. I have seen posts of his in response to medical issues which he sounds like he knows what he's talking about. He may be one of those docs who is very good at what he does, but has some really off-the-wall ideas about anything outside of his profession. A tunnel vision of sorts.

    Doctors are used to being in control. That control type of personality often extends to not wanting to admit being wrong about things they know absolutely nothing about. They also may tend to think of inanimate objects in the same way they think of the human body. Trust me, I have known doctors like this.
  • 02-13-2019
    PBL450
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tempeteOntheRoad View Post
    The reason is: I still ride my 1992 ti hardtail and my 2006 ti road. both with ti forks. The industry does not like that. I don't buy bikes. I change worn parts and upgrade when significant. That dont sell.

    Good point. That carbon fiber crap just crumbles into oblivion like cheap plastic. That’s why so many jumbo jets keep dropping into the ocean when their wings evaporate. Those rube PhD mechanical engineers are designing planes to fail to sell more of them!
  • 02-14-2019
    Coolhand
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Good point. That carbon fiber crap just crumbles into oblivion like cheap plastic. That’s why so many jumbo jets keep dropping into the ocean when their wings evaporate. Those rube PhD mechanical engineers are designing planes to fail to sell more of them!

    https://youtu.be/mSy5mEcmgwUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSy5mEcmgwU