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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    No calculations on my part. A while ago I was looking at what rims to buy for my last mtb wheel set I stumbled across an article where someone blew up a carbon mtb rim and blamed the manufacture for defects. He was commuting to work and rode with 40psi with a 30mm rim ID and fat tires. Someone who seemed to know Boyle's Law made the comparison that you quoted in my first post.

    So just like you said more volume creates more pressure on the rim at the same PSI. Meaning a wide rim/tire at low pressure will require the same amount of strength as a narrow rim/tire at high pressure. Which wouldn't explain why the OP's comparison is showing mtb rims to be lighter.
    What?

    PSI is a measure of pressure. So, you're saying you can increase the pressure without changing the pressure? This makes no sense.

    If you have a tire with a volume of 1L on a rim inflated to 50 psi, it exerts exactly the same amount of pressure on the rim as a tire with a volume of 2L on the same rim inflated to 50 psi. The air in both tires exerts the same pressure on the rim, that is to say 50 psi.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    But hitting something does reduce interior area so half of what you said has to be wrong.

    And I just proved it in about 10 seconds by putting a psi gauge on a tire (a 33mm that's around 30psi) and watching the needle move up when I pushed on the top simulating what happens when you hit a pot hole or whatever. Doesn't change much, but it does.
    That would be because you provided a route for the air to escape against a diaphragm (your gauge) that will move in and out resulting in a pressure disparity.

    And no, you physically cannot change the volume of the interior of a tire/rim combo unless you add more air and the tire is rubbery enough to allow the tube to expand. You can however change it's shape.. that occurs when you hit an object, or in your case, when you pushed on the tire

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by D&MsDad View Post
    What?

    PSI is a measure of pressure. So, you're saying you can increase the pressure without changing the pressure? This makes no sense.

    If you have a tire with a volume of 1L on a rim inflated to 50 psi, it exerts exactly the same amount of pressure on the rim as a tire with a volume of 2L on the same rim inflated to 50 psi. The air in both tires exerts the same pressure on the rim, that is to say 50 psi.
    I'm not going to pretend I understand Boyle's Law and haven't read much about it but I think "pressure" was the wrong word to use. From my current basic understanding of it the same PSI but with more volume will put more stress on the rim and tire. Thus running low volume at high PSI or high volume at low PSI will put similar amounts of stress on a rim and tire.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljvb View Post
    And no, you physically cannot change the volume of the interior of a tire/rim combo unless you add more air and the tire is rubbery enough to allow the tube to expand. You can however change it's shape.. that occurs when you hit an object, or in your case, when you pushed on the tire
    Of course you can. Fill a cup or plastic bottle with water. Squeeze it and it will over flow. If the volume didn't change it wouldn't.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by D&MsDad View Post
    What?

    PSI is a measure of pressure. So, you're saying you can increase the pressure without changing the pressure? This makes no sense.

    If you have a tire with a volume of 1L on a rim inflated to 50 psi, it exerts exactly the same amount of pressure on the rim as a tire with a volume of 2L on the same rim inflated to 50 psi. The air in both tires exerts the same pressure on the rim, that is to say 50 psi.
    I dare you to test that theory by trying to get 100 PSI in a car tire.

    (in all seriousness DO NOT try that. You'll get hurt when it explodes well before you get there)

    You're simply wrong.

  6. #31
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    I'm not seeing the Boyle's Law theory. Boyle's Law says pressure changes as volume changes. That's how a bike pump works. You compress the air chamber volume to increase the air pressure.
    But there is no volume change in a bicycle tire. It's static.

    A 26" x 4" fatbike rim has ~326in^2 of surface are.
    A 29" x 1" road rim has ~91in^2 surface area.

    The surface area of the fatbike rim is 3-1/2 times that of a road rim. The volume is irrelevant. PSI is a ratio of pounds to in^2, not in^3. You use a lower pressure because the surface area is larger, not the tire volume.

    It would be like saying if you had a 1 Gallon air compressor filled with 100psi, and a 10 Gallon air compressor filled with 100psi, that the wall thickness of the 10 Gallon take would need to be 10x thicker.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Of course you can. Fill a cup or plastic bottle with water. Squeeze it and it will over flow. If the volume didn't change it wouldn't.
    You are changing the shape of an item with an open top. You cannot compare a cup to a tire that is sealed to a rim. A better example would have been a balloon, you can change it's shape, but the interior volume will remain the same, as will oddly enough, the pressure. An increase in pressure in the balloon, as long as it is strong enough to overcome the inherent surface tension of the rubber of the balloon, will result in an increase in size.

    This is science man, why are you arguing like this is PO.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    I'm not seeing the Boyle's Law theory. Boyle's Law says pressure changes as volume changes. That's how a bike pump works. You compress the air chamber volume to increase the air pressure.
    But there is no volume change in a bicycle tire. It's static.

    A 26" x 4" fatbike rim has ~326in^2 of surface are.
    A 29" x 1" road rim has ~91in^2 surface area.

    The surface area of the fatbike rim is 3-1/2 times that of a road rim. The volume is irrelevant. PSI is a ratio of pounds to in^2, not in^3. You use a lower pressure because the surface area is larger, not the tire volume.

    It would be like saying if you had a 1 Gallon air compressor filled with 100psi, and a 10 Gallon air compressor filled with 100psi, that the wall thickness of the 10 Gallon take would need to be 10x thicker.
    Assuming similar shaped tanks, the 10gal tank will have a larger surface area than a 1gal tank. The 10gal tank will have the 100psi exerted over a greater surface area than a 1gal tank, which in turn requires a stronger tank to hold back that pressure.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljvb View Post
    You are changing the shape of an item with an open top. You cannot compare a cup to a tire that is sealed to a rim. A better example would have been a balloon, you can change it's shape, but the interior volume will remain the same, as will oddly enough, the pressure. An increase in pressure in the balloon, as long as it is strong enough to overcome the inherent surface tension of the rubber of the balloon, will result in an increase in size.

    This is science man, why are you arguing like this is PO.
    Same thing as my first example. Squeeze an inflated balloon and it will eventually pop. How can this be if the volume and pressure didn't change?

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Same thing as my first example. Squeeze an inflated balloon and it will eventually pop. How can this be if the volume and pressure didn't change?
    Because you are putting an amount of pressure on an area that exceeds it's ability to stay in tact. As you stretch the rubber, you will notice is changes color, starts turning a milky white on some colored balloons, that means you have exceeded it's strength. The volume inside the entire balloon has not changed (unless you can put exterior pressure evenly over the entire surface area of the balloon, at which point you are now compressing the air inside, it's why we use hydraulic fluid instead of air), and the overall pressure inside the balloon has not changed.

    What has changed is that a balloon, capable of maintain 100 psi when inflated and not being squished is fine, but when you start to squeeze it and contort it, parts of the surface will no longer be able to hold back at 100psi, but rather say 50 or 70 psi, being that there is an overall pressure of 100 psi in the balloon, the wall of the ballon fails and boom.

    Same goes for your car tire example, the more air you put into the tire, the higher the pressure as you increase the airs compression. The cars tire has a set volume, and a set failure point. you could easily put 100 psi into a car tire if that tire was designed with the same specifications as say a bike tire designed to maintain 100psi, but they are not, and they will fail because the forces of the air trying to decompress exceed the forces of the tire's structure.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHankey View Post
    Assuming similar shaped tanks, the 10gal tank will have a larger surface area than a 1gal tank. The 10gal tank will have the 100psi exerted over a greater surface area than a 1gal tank, which in turn requires a stronger tank to hold back that pressure.
    No it doesn't. Are you trying to tell me a 100psi 10 gallon tank needs to be 10x stronger than a 1 gallon tank? That's not how physics works.

    The pounds of force exerted on every square inch of surface area is identical in both tanks.

    1 Gallon 200psi tank has a 1/8" steel wall. https://www.mcmaster.com/#9888K9
    10 Gallon 200psi tanks has a 1/8" steel wall. https://www.mcmaster.com/#9888k17
    60 Gallon 200psi tank has a 1/8" steel wall. https://www.mcmaster.com/#4377K53
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljvb View Post
    Because you are putting an amount of pressure on an area that exceeds it's ability to stay in tact. As you stretch the rubber, you will notice is changes color, starts turning a milky white on some colored balloons, that means you have exceeded it's strength. The volume inside the entire balloon has not changed (unless you can put exterior pressure evenly over the entire surface area of the balloon, at which point you are now compressing the air inside, it's why we use hydraulic fluid instead of air), and the overall pressure inside the balloon has not changed.

    What has changed is that a balloon, capable of maintain 100 psi when inflated and not being squished is fine, but when you start to squeeze it and contort it, parts of the surface will no longer be able to hold back at 100psi, but rather say 50 or 70 psi, being that there is an overall pressure of 100 psi in the balloon, the wall of the ballon fails and boom.

    Same goes for your car tire example, the more air you put into the tire, the higher the pressure as you increase the airs compression. The cars tire has a set volume, and a set failure point. you could easily put 100 psi into a car tire if that tire was designed with the same specifications as say a bike tire designed to maintain 100psi, but they are not, and they will fail because the forces of the air trying to decompress exceed the forces of the tire's structure.

    You missed why I'm mentioning a car tire though. The point is you can feel it's quite hard at, say, 40 PSI. Whereas a small road bike tire will feel about flat at 40 PSI. I'm aware about any volume could be built strong enough to take 100 PSI.
    Are you really suggesting that road bike rims and tires are stronger than those of a car? And that's the only reason a road bike can take 100 but a car tires can't?

    It's pretty clear there's no way we are going to agree on anything here so I'll move on.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    No it doesn't. Are you trying to tell me a 100psi 10 gallon tank needs to be 10x stronger than a 1 gallon tank? That's not how physics works.

    The pounds of force exerted on every square inch of surface area is identical in both tanks.

    1 Gallon 200psi tank has a 1/8" steel wall. https://www.mcmaster.com/#9888K9
    10 Gallon 200psi tanks has a 1/8" steel wall. https://www.mcmaster.com/#9888k17
    60 Gallon 200psi tank has a 1/8" steel wall. https://www.mcmaster.com/#4377K53
    Assuming cylindrical or round tanks, the surface area of a 10gal tank is not going to be 10x greater than that of a 1gal tank.

    The 100psi is being exerted to every square inch of the tanks surface area. The greater the surface area, and the more overall force the tank needs to hold back so it does not rupture. It isn't going to rupture from any given square inch, but that of the pressure applied to the overall surface area. For something like air tanks, it probably that have to withstand the abuses of a job site, it probably doesn't make much sense to use less than 1/8" steel. And 1/8" steel spherical or round tank probably still has ample strength from rupturing at 60gal.

    If you laid a 1lb piece of 1" square piece of metal on a piece of paper, you could pick the metal up with that piece of paper by holding the edges of the paper. Now try doing the same with a 10lb piece of metal with 10" of surface area. At some point that piece of paper is going to rupture when you try to lift the metal with the paper.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHankey View Post
    Assuming cylindrical or round tanks, the surface area of a 10gal tank is not going to be 10x greater than that of a 1gal tank.

    The 100psi is being exerted to every square inch of the tanks surface area. The greater the surface area, and the more overall force the tank needs to hold back so it does not rupture. It isn't going to rupture from any given square inch, but that of the pressure applied to the overall surface area. For something like air tanks, it probably that have to withstand the abuses of a job site, it probably doesn't make much sense to use less than 1/8" steel. And 1/8" steel spherical or round tank probably still has ample strength from rupturing at 60gal.

    If you laid a 1lb piece of 1" square piece of metal on a piece of paper, you could pick the metal up with that piece of paper by holding the edges of the paper. Now try doing the same with a 10lb piece of metal with 10" of surface area. At some point that piece of paper is going to rupture when you try to lift the metal with the paper.
    That's pretty much what I've been wanting to say but couldn't think of a way to articulate it so well and find the right example. Pretty simple and common sense, I think, once the right words and illustration are chosen to get the point across like you have done.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by D&MsDad View Post
    What?

    PSI is a measure of pressure. So, you're saying you can increase the pressure without changing the pressure? This makes no sense.

    If you have a tire with a volume of 1L on a rim inflated to 50 psi, it exerts exactly the same amount of pressure on the rim as a tire with a volume of 2L on the same rim inflated to 50 psi. The air in both tires exerts the same pressure on the rim, that is to say 50 psi.
    You have never taken a physics class, right? Or at least never paid attention to the very basics? Practical, easy-to-understand explanation:

    Why are road rims heavier than mtb rims-screen%25u00252bshot%252b2014-11-26%252bat%252b5.47.36%252bpm.png

    (follow me?)

    This explains why you don't need 100psi in a mountain bike tire for it to feel hard as a rock and why you see labels on fatbike rims (4.0-5.0") saying 'do not inflate to over 25psi'.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    I dare you to test that theory by trying to get 100 PSI in a car tire.

    (in all seriousness DO NOT try that. You'll get hurt when it explodes well before you get there)

    You're simply wrong.
    No, I'm not. 50 psi is not the same as 100 psi. And you don't "put ... PSI into a tire", you put air into a tire. As air goes in, the tire expands. However, since the tire resists expanding (how much depends on it elasticity) the pressure inside the tire increases.

    However, if you keep the pressure constant (as suggested in the original post we're talking about) by using a tire with a higher volume, then the pressure on the tire is the same.

    You are seriously confused. 50 psi = 50 psi. It doesn't matter if the volume is 1 L or 1,000,000 liter, if the pressure is 50 psi it is putting the same amount of stress on the container, that is 50 psi. That is what psi means.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHankey View Post
    Assuming cylindrical or round tanks, the surface area of a 10gal tank is not going to be 10x greater than that of a 1gal tank.

    The 100psi is being exerted to every square inch of the tanks surface area. The greater the surface area, and the more overall force the tank needs to hold back so it does not rupture. It isn't going to rupture from any given square inch, but that of the pressure applied to the overall surface area. For something like air tanks, it probably that have to withstand the abuses of a job site, it probably doesn't make much sense to use less than 1/8" steel. And 1/8" steel spherical or round tank probably still has ample strength from rupturing at 60gal.

    If you laid a 1lb piece of 1" square piece of metal on a piece of paper, you could pick the metal up with that piece of paper by holding the edges of the paper. Now try doing the same with a 10lb piece of metal with 10" of surface area. At some point that piece of paper is going to rupture when you try to lift the metal with the paper.
    So 100 lb of lead weighs more than 100 lb of feathers?

    Your analogy is faulty. If a material is capable of withstanding a pressure of 100 psi, it doesn't matter if the container is 1 L or 100 L, it still only needs to withstand a pressure of 100 lb/sq in. (Not strictly correct, since the larger container will need to hold itself up, so it will need to be somewhat stronger to compensate for increased weight of the tank itself due to gravity, but that has nothing to do with the amount of air in the tank.)

    Think of a balloon. The material for a small balloon is the same as the material for a large balloon. If you blow them up to the same pressure, the air inside the large balloon is not exerting any more force on the balloon material than the air in the small balloon is.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by D&MsDad View Post
    No, I'm not. 50 psi is not the same as 100 psi. And you don't "put ... PSI into a tire", you put air into a tire. As air goes in, the tire expands. However, since the tire resists expanding (how much depends on it elasticity) the pressure inside the tire increases.

    However, if you keep the pressure constant (as suggested in the original post we're talking about) by using a tire with a higher volume, then the pressure on the tire is the same.

    You are seriously confused. 50 psi = 50 psi. It doesn't matter if the volume is 1 L or 1,000,000 liter, if the pressure is 50 psi it is putting the same amount of stress on the container, that is 50 psi. That is what psi means.
    What we're all really saying is that as you increase volume you need to reduce pressure to maintain the same 'feel' or 'firmness' of the tire. See my last post. Roughly 10psi decrease in pressure every time you bump up a size (road tires) will yield exactly the same 'tension' or tire feel. Yes, 50psi is always 50psi. But how that 50psi feels differs dramatically depending on the size of the tire. Your 700 x 23 road tire would feel pretty flat, your 26 x 20 mtb tire would feel very hard and your 5.0 fatbike tire might just blow up the rim it's mounted on.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by D&MsDad View Post
    No, I'm not. 50 psi is not the same as 100 psi. And you don't "put ... PSI into a tire", you put air into a tire. As air goes in, the tire expands. However, since the tire resists expanding (how much depends on it elasticity) the pressure inside the tire increases.

    However, if you keep the pressure constant (as suggested in the original post we're talking about) by using a tire with a higher volume, then the pressure on the tire is the same.

    You are seriously confused. 50 psi = 50 psi. It doesn't matter if the volume is 1 L or 1,000,000 liter, if the pressure is 50 psi it is putting the same amount of stress on the container, that is 50 psi. That is what psi means.
    okay, think whatever you want to think.

    But when you have more SI you have more P and that's why the stress on the container is not the same regardless of size.

    Here's a tip for you and who ever else insists on flaunting a lack of knowledge: When I first saw this topic here a few years ago I thought about the same as you. It took me about 15 seconds with google to realize the person I was about to argue with was indeed correct. And for good measure took another 5 seconds to actually think about it when another person mentioned the hardness of big car tires at 30 vs road bike tires.
    I won't drag out an argument because I don't care if you get it or not. But you might want to invest the same 20 seconds before continuing to flaunt how that you don't know what you're talking about and accusing those who do of being confused.

  20. #45
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    BTW I went to Carbonfan's site and their CX 700c rim that is 28mm depth x 21mm ID weighs in at 400g. They make a mtb rim that is about 290g for a 29er 25mm depth x 22mm ID.

    Both 700c, both asym, both disc rims, but a difference of over 100g.
    Would the small difference in depth/width make up for that? Doubtful.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    You have never taken a physics class, right? Or at least never paid attention to the very basics? Practical, easy-to-understand explanation:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screen%u00252BShot%2B2014-11-26%2Bat%2B5.47.36%2BPM.png 
Views:	26 
Size:	61.8 KB 
ID:	323093

    (follow me?)

    This explains why you don't need 100psi in a mountain bike tire for it to feel hard as a rock and why you see labels on fatbike rims (4.0-5.0") saying 'do not inflate to over 25psi'.
    It would help if you understood which post I'm replying to before you compose your post.

    I was replying to post #13: "More volume would create more pressure at the same PSI. And at lower pressure to a certain point."

    Thanks for the condescending post, but I have taken physics, I have paid attention to the basics and, what is more, I pay attention to what people are saying in their posts.

    Jay Strongbow is saying that increasing the tire volume, without increasing the pressure in the tire, puts more stress on the rim. This is what I'm disagreeing with.

    It is perfectly obvious that putting more air pressure in the tire puts more pressure on the rim. However, that is not what the post I was responding to said.

    Follow me?

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    Are these posts all out of order for anyone else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    okay, think whatever you want to think.

    But when you have more SI you have more P and that's why the stress on the container is not the same regardless of size.

    Here's a tip for you and who ever else insists on flaunting a lack of knowledge: When I first saw this topic here a few years ago I thought about the same as you. It took me about 15 seconds with google to realize the person I was about to argue with was indeed correct. And for good measure took another 5 seconds to actually think about it when another person mentioned the hardness of big car tires at 30 vs road bike tires.
    I won't drag out an argument because I don't care if you get it or not. But you might want to invest the same 20 seconds before continuing to flaunt how that you don't know what you're talking about and accusing those who do of being confused.
    Sorry, I can't find anything in Google telling me that 50 psi is more than 50 psi. Can you please direct me to the information you're referring to?

    For reference, this is the post that I'm disagreeing with, post #13: "More volume would create more pressure at the same PSI. And at lower pressure to a certain point."

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    okay, think whatever you want to think.

    But when you have more SI you have more P and that's why the stress on the container is not the same regardless of size.
    No, it doesn't work that way. Pounds per square inch is pounds per square inch.

    Here's an FEA analysis I just ran. A 5" cylindner and 10" cylinder. Both with 100psi. The stress is the same.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Why are road rims heavier than mtb rims-5in.jpg   Why are road rims heavier than mtb rims-10in.jpg  
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourrealdad View Post
    Are these posts all out of order for anyone else?
    Big time. Is the internet broke?
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