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  1. #51
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    Late to the party, but...
    - In an organized race/timed cycling event? Nope. Never. Will elbow them into the ditch. I'm dead serious.
    - In a group ride setting? If I'm running the show- it would really depend on the individual.
    • Let's say it's a long time cyclist that dropped out of the scene for health reasons. Absolutely, because they know the social norms and etiquette. I can rely on them to ride in a manner that is respectful of the other members of the ride. Bringing old friends back into the community is always a good thing. A friend of mine has really bad back issues, and the only way he could do a MTB demo day and try out the new products for his shop was to ride an ebike up the hills and then swap bikes for the descents. The ebikes and a spread of Floyd's CBD products kept him in the saddle so he could make informed choices for his business.
    • If it's an otherwise healthy cyclist who wants to take an easy day, they can do it elsewhere. Sorry. A lot of this sport is mental, and seeing someone breezily motoring by is a bit demoralizing, even if you know they're assisted. I can accept that some riders are faster than I will ever be or ever could have been, but at a certain point you're just mixing sports. You do you somewhere else.
    • If it's an unknown? Nope. Sorry, a lot of us have families, careers, mortgages, and other stuff.

    I'm just not a big fan of ebikes as anything other than a economical mode of transportation. I think they should be regulated to be readily identified and only take the form of a Dutch city bike. If I see someone going 25MPH on the flats on one of those, I'll know the score. I also think they should be banned on MUPs/MUTs. Put them out on the streets where they will increase the two-wheel traffic, and away from pedestrians and other vulnerable users. I wish our local code had been written differently, because it's becoming an issue.

    I'm a bit of a Luddite in this regard. I just don't see the point for 95% of the buyers.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post
    Late to the party, but...
    - In an organized race/timed cycling event? Nope. Never. Will elbow them into the ditch. I'm dead serious.
    72,000 lawyers just popped wood, 29,900 of which are women...

  3. #53
    The Slow One.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akirasho View Post
    72,000 lawyers just popped wood, 29,900 of which are women...
    I'd elbow the lot of them into the ditch, too.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post
    If it's an unknown? Nope. Sorry, a lot of us have families, careers, mortgages, and other stuff.
    Your mortgage, family, and career are considerations when deciding whether you're willing to ride with a cyclist on an e-bike? Maybe I haven't thought this through ... what kind of mortage do you have, fixed rate or ARM?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    If a really strong rider on a regular road bike showed up at your group ride, would you also say no?
    Of course... because it's a bike ride. If we all went for a moped ride, the guy on the moped could certainly join.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    that's a different topic all together, but you really can't imagine why someone would want to limit the size of a group?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Why WOULD you? IMHO, 5 is company, 10 is a crowd. More is not merrier.
    If you have too many people for a functional group ride, you split it up and make two group rides. You now have more people cycling, which I'd hope we could all agree is awesome.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by masont View Post
    If you have too many people for a functional group ride, you split it up and make two group rides. You now have more people cycling, which I'd hope we could all agree is awesome.
    Groups split organically. If 100 "random" people show up and all start together, within a few miles you'll have an A group (24++) a B group (20-24) a C group... and so on. I've never seen a large group ride that didn't do that.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldZaskar View Post
    Of course... because it's a bike ride. If we all went for a moped ride, the guy on the moped could certainly join.
    Sorry, but your answer is a bit unclear. Is that a no or or yes to riding with the strong rider?

  9. #59
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    No. Just my opinion. When I ride my road bike I am, in my own small way, participating in the sport of cycling. Itís not a bike ride, I mean sometimes it is, even on the road, but more often and more to the point, for me, cycling is a sport. A very, very difficult endurance sport that also requires some skills in order to ride or race safely and successfully. Mopeds arenít allowed in bicycle races. So, they are not wanted on cycling rides. To me, itís not about ego, itís not about insecurity, it IS about honoring and respecting the sport of cycling. We have a shared and collective history. People have died for this sport. I fully realize I am both nostalgic and reverent. People do extremely difficult things to get better. Then they do even worse/harder to get even better. They, wait... hell, WE, do ugly work on the bike to improve. In doing so... In intervals, seeing black and wanting to give up... we come to share a version of success that is performance.

    I have nothing against mopeds. But it isn't cycling and it has nothing to with cycling. Roll on and enjoy, just donít expect to be part of such a storied and fantastic sport. And yes, that includes our little local group rides. Because we are cyclists. We are not mopedists. There is that small piece of us, as we try to get up a local climb faster than our PR that touches and feels and connects with elite cyclists doing the exact same thing but way, way better. And they feel the connection to cycling every bit as much as we do.
    Last edited by PBL450; 10-09-2018 at 04:30 PM.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  10. #60
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    ^THAT^ can end this thread.

    Well said PBL450

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    When I ride my road bike I am, in my own small way, participating in the sport of cycling. Itís not a bike ride, I mean sometimes it is, even on the road, but more often and more to the point, for me, cycling is a sport. A very, very difficult endurance sport that also requires some skills in order to ride or race safely and successfully. Mopeds arenít allowed in bicycle races. So, they are not wanted on cycling rides. To me, itís not about ego, itís not about insecurity, it IS about honoring and respecting the sport of cycling. We have a shared and collective history. People have died for this sport. I fully realize I am both nostalgic and reverent. People do extremely difficult things to get better. Then they do wven worse/harder to get better. They, hell, WE do ugly work on the bike to improve. In doing so... In intervals, seeing black and wanting to give up... we come to share a version of success that is performance.
    This is from a Monty Python skit, isn't it?

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    This is from a Monty Python skit, isn't it?
    I have no idea what that means. Maybe itís obvious and Iím the only one who doesnít get it?

    Maybe you have no connection to the sport? Thatís fine. Do whatever you want. I answered YOUR question and made it clear it was being answered for ME. I made that clear repeatedly. I could care less what level of identity you share with actual cyclists. Thatís your business. When I climb on my road bike, I am joining in a continuous thread of history. I love this sport. And I wouldnít piss on it for money. You? I could care less what you want, again, you asked the question. If you donít like my answer, you can go pound salt.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  13. #63
    The Slow One.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    Your mortgage, family, and career are considerations when deciding whether you're willing to ride with a cyclist on an e-bike?
    Risk/reward is always a calculation I make, every time I pin on a number or join a group ride. I've already had a taste of what can happen as a result of a traumatic brain injury or serious "structural" injury- caused by the actions of others. As I am currently the sole support of my family, it would be irresponsible for me not to take such things into consideration. I do this for fun and health. Nobody pays me to ride. On the contrary, I pay a lot of money (by my standards) to participate in this sport and devote a lot of time to maximizing what little potential I have in it.

    Maybe I'm just to close to the last wreck.

  14. #64
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    If the moped revival is truly a fast-growing segment, this question will be moot (and hopefully mute) in a couple years. The mopedists can meet up and ride mopeds together, while cyclists meet up and ride bikes together. Maybe we can all meet for a doughnut post ride.

  15. #65
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    Like Alaska Mike said, if it's someone that was in the scene and dropped out for any number of reasons, health, family, etc. then fine, I'm good with it. But someone that watches us paceline by their house every week then decides, "That looks like fun"...Nope.
    Staying welcomed in the fast group takes more than fitness, etiquette is a major player.
    In reference to the Assault on Mt Mitchell...
    Quote Originally Posted by merckx56
    The easier solution is to find a biker bar in Spartanburg the night before, go in and pick a fight. The ass-whipping you'll get will be far less painful than the one Mitchell will give you the next day!

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post
    Risk/reward is always a calculation I make, every time I pin on a number or join a group ride. I've already had a taste of what can happen as a result of a traumatic brain injury or serious "structural" injury- caused by the actions of others. As I am currently the sole support of my family, it would be irresponsible for me not to take such things into consideration. I do this for fun and health. Nobody pays me to ride. On the contrary, I pay a lot of money (by my standards) to participate in this sport and devote a lot of time to maximizing what little potential I have in it.
    That all makes perfect sense, but what does it have to do with e-bikes? Riding an e-bike does not make someone any more or less dangerous than a cyclist on a normal bike.

  17. #67
    The Slow One.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldZaskar View Post
    If the moped revival is truly a fast-growing segment, this question will be moot (and hopefully mute) in a couple years. The mopedists can meet up and ride mopeds together, while cyclists meet up and ride bikes together. Maybe we can all meet for a doughnut post ride.
    You know, I think the bike industry just lurches from one trend to another, year after year. 29ers, fat bikes, gravel bikes... trying to catch the next big thing, I guess.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    I have no idea what that means. Maybe itís obvious and Iím the only one who doesnít get it?

    Maybe you have no connection to the sport? Thatís fine. Do whatever you want. I answered YOUR question and made it clear it was being answered for ME. I made that clear repeatedly. I could care less what level of identity you share with actual cyclists. Thatís your business. When I climb on my road bike, I am joining in a continuous thread of history. I love this sport. And I wouldnít piss on it for money. You? I could care less what you want, again, you asked the question. If you donít like my answer, you can go pound salt.
    Sorry, but the line "People have died for this sport" evokes images of someone selflessly throwing themselves onto a handful of tacks to "save the peloton."

    It's nice you feel some higher connection to the sport, however, no has died for the sport of cycling. Cycling is not civil rights or the struggle against an oppressive, dictatorial regime.

    What question of mine were you answering? You didn't quote anything.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    When they start pulling away at 21MPH+ without pedaling I call the cops. Unlicensed and unregistered motor vehicles are illegal.

    Many mopeds are advertised as 28MPH capable on motor power. Funny how calling a moped an "ebike" suddenly makes a moped desirable. All about branding.
    The term ďebikeĒ is horse-waste. Theyíre electric mopeds on mostly bike chassis. I donít care if they use bike lanes (responsibly) or really even if someone (hopefully someone who can handle a bike at that speed)shows up on a group ride and ďcheatsĒ as long as they keep their mouths shut about any accomplishments while on said ride.


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    The internet is a little like a bar, a wonderful place where we can bullsh(t our past, but it also, is full of reasonably reliable sources of information to be used as ammo to call "bullish)t."

  20. #70
    The Slow One.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    That all makes perfect sense, but what does it have to do with e-bikes? Riding an e-bike does not make someone any more or less dangerous than a cyclist on a normal bike.
    Actually, it does based purely on the increased weight of the current ebikes. Add an inexperienced rider and you have increased potential for things to go wrong.

    If you are not used to riding that speed with people in close proximity to you and do not understand the effect your actions will have on those around you, you should not be in that situation. This goes for ebikes or non-ebikes. Line up for a Cat 5 crit and you'll see why people scramble to get out of that class as soon as possible. Strong riders are not necessarily good riders. Add a motor, and even the bar of physical fitness is lifted.

    Modern society is designed to make things easier to attain, and we've lost the drive to work to improve. Why work for something when you can just buy it? You see it all the time in this sport, where people spend thousands to "buy speed" they could have easily gained with a couple pounds of weight lost or a little more work in the saddle. At a certain point, you're caught up in an arms race that has nothing to do with the actual activity, and it robs all of the joy out of it.

    Hill climbs and time trials are supposed to hurt. Guys with superior genes/training/experience are supposed to kick your teeth in. The only thing that should be fair on a bike is that you get out what you put into the activity- and I'm not talking about money.

    Yeah, I'm not a fan of ebikes in the sporting sense. I'm not a Luddite, but I just don't see them as a viable fitness alternative to the basic bicycle for 99% of the public. As a utility mode of transportation, sure.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bremerradkurier View Post
    Their rear wheels will be highly coveted just like tandems rear wheels are on the flats.
    As long as they are reliable moped pilots, this is an accurate statement.

    Iíve yet to see a tandem drop bar bike where the ďcaptainĒ couldnít smoke me on their own. Often the stokers have ponytails and are way faster than me. I can live with that.

    But mopeds are still mopeds. Itíll be like having the whole group ride motor-paced. Which, if they are reliable...


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  22. #72
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    Imagine the following...

    You're about to take a college entrance exam with only a pencil and your brain. Meanwhile, the person next to you intends to use his Internet connected mobile phone to take the same test. That should be OK, no?

    Or how about this...

    You're going for a run with a group of friends. When you get there, you find a few people brought their inline skates and plan on "running" with you. That's OK, right? They just have a little mechanical advantage that running shoes don't so they can get a boost when they're tired.

    In the group rides I've done, although they aren't official races they are typically very competitive. If someone has a radical mechanical advantage that is sure to make the ride impossible to be remotely competitive in, I personally would rather ride alone.

    While I could see the day when my legs just can't do hills anymore and I buy an ebike, I would not expect the local group riders to welcome me to their rides (not saying they wouldn't, I just wouldn't be surprised if they said, "no".)

  23. #73
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    I appreciate people calling pedal-assist bikes "mopeds" because it's nice to know whose opinion is either utterly uninformed or who is just trying to get a rise out of people.

    I'm not sure what people are attempting to accomplish by doing this, but I do appreciate the warning.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    that's a different topic all together, but you really can't imagine why someone would want to limit the size of a group?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Why WOULD you? IMHO, 5 is company, 10 is a crowd. More is not merrier.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldZaskar View Post
    Groups split organically. If 100 "random" people show up and all start together, within a few miles you'll have an A group (24++) a B group (20-24) a C group... and so on. I've never seen a large group ride that didn't do that.
    Absolutely. Which is why too many people showing up isn't a problem at all.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by dir-t View Post
    Keeping things "even" is for races. If e-mopeds are going to be racing they should be in their own class.

    Otherwise, someone riding an (e-moped) doesn't impact how rewarded I feel about my own riding. Perhaps I'll only be able to talk to the ebiker (fits better than e-cyclist) about the scenery rather than how hard a climb was.

    It would be like me getting upset at my coworker when he passed me in his car during my morning bike commute.
    Or the coworker passing you on his gas powered moped, a bicycle shaped object, with pedals and a motor which may or may not have a throttle.




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