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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    That guy on the indian motor bicycle needs to adj his saddle so it isn't pointy uppy, or he isn't riding with us.

    Don't be that guy!
    How do you know it's not a girl?

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjdhawkhill View Post
    Either way, if itís got a motor of any sort, itís no longer a bicycle.
    Geez, my bike and many of the bikes in the TDF and Giro have two legal electric motors on them.

    I'm sure I speak for all of us when I express the pain we feel in knowing that you don't approve.

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    My wife's e-bike does 29mph before assist stops. It weighs 36 lbs. It will climb 5400 vertical (the four mountain passes of the Sella Ronda) on one battery with my wife riding it. There is no way in this world that you could beat her around the Sella Ronda even though you may be able to beat her on the descents.

    I used her bike for an emergency run after a long training ride on the Sunrise climb of mt Rainier. My nephews wife failed to show up after the rest of us had finished the descent (behind a locked gate) and the slowest speed I saw on the 6% nine mile climb was 18mph and often I was doing 22mph (I was likely contributing about 200 watts). Turns out she had a flat and screwed up her only co2 cartridge)
    Amazing account, Swift! 29 mph! 18-22 mph up the mountains! The battery lasts for 5400 vertical ft. and the whole rig only weighs 36#? I knew it was coming.

    Cars are the same way: computerized control of everything, ready to self drive themselves like obedient robots, faultlessly polite on the road. They have big batteries charged up by gasoline engines. Bikes and wheel chairs are manual instruments of locomotion. Until the batteries die on 'em, that is.

    Servos, motors, moving weight along the road, takes infinitely more energy than keeping a speedometer charged a year or two, but that's all I want to worry about. I enjoy the many subtleties of a well designed, nice riding bike.

    Electric assist would be entirely beside the point. It would intervene in the exquisite physical connections the rider has with the bike. Electric shifting, ok, no problem, but motorized assist for the legs? Would they ever experience the variances and intensities the average bike ride demands? What's the point? Do riders ride clipless pedals or toe clips and straps? Pedaling becomes irrelevant. Why not get a motor scooter?

    That's cool for many people, right in tune with i phones and getting around on GPS. The intellectually astute global collective brain perfecting itself. I ride like a dog in the wind, and read the news that night. Different experiences, one rigorous movement, the other contemplative. The longest I'm willing to contemplate on a ride is about 3 seconds, not enough time to take in any kind of complex information or complicated readout display.

    The touch screens in cars today are getting outrageous. A good case for self driving cars, so the driver can process all the information now literally at his finger tips. Zooming down the interstates, I'm not interested in anything but the road and my trajectory on it. The road signs tell me where to go.

    i've been in more screwups with GPS than back in the days of paper maps. At one point driving down to the FL panhandle from DC, we took the wrong fork around Atlanta, and ended up in Jacksonville, about 120 miles east of where we wanted to go. We shoulda looked at a map.

  4. #179
    xxl
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    My wife's e-bike does 29mph before assist stops. It weighs 36 lbs. It will climb 5400 vertical (the four mountain passes of the Sella Ronda) on one battery with my wife riding it. There is no way in this world that you could beat her around the Sella Ronda even though you may be able to beat her on the descents....
    To be accurate, no offense to your wife, there's no way that a bicycle rider could beat her electric motor.

    Re your other posted comment about how many TdF and Giro bikes have two legal electric motors on them, I have to confess that I don't follow European pro cycling all that much, but what electric motors are allowed on the riders' bicycles there?
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  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    To be accurate, no offense to your wife, there's no way that a bicycle rider could beat her electric motor.

    Re your other posted comment about how many TdF and Giro bikes have two legal electric motors on them, I have to confess that I don't follow European pro cycling all that much, but what electric motors are allowed on the riders' bicycles there?
    You need to keep up with the times! The motors are part of a system called di2 and they operate the front and rear deraillleurs. To be fair, they've only been around for maybe 7 or 8 years

  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Amazing account, Swift! 29 mph! 18-22 mph up the mountains! The battery lasts for 5400 vertical ft. and the whole rig only weighs 36#? I knew it was coming.

    Cars are the same way: computerized control of everything, ready to self drive themselves like obedient robots, faultlessly polite on the road. They have big batteries charged up by gasoline engines. Bikes and wheel chairs are manual instruments of locomotion. Until the batteries die on 'em, that is.

    Servos, motors, moving weight along the road, takes infinitely more energy than keeping a speedometer charged a year or two, but that's all I want to worry about. I enjoy the many subtleties of a well designed, nice riding bike.

    Electric assist would be entirely beside the point. It would intervene in the exquisite physical connections the rider has with the bike. Electric shifting, ok, no problem, but motorized assist for the legs? Would they ever experience the variances and intensities the average bike ride demands? What's the point? Do riders ride clipless pedals or toe clips and straps? Pedaling becomes irrelevant. Why not get a motor scooter?

    That's cool for many people, right in tune with i phones and getting around on GPS. The intellectually astute global collective brain perfecting itself. I ride like a dog in the wind, and read the news that night. Different experiences, one rigorous movement, the other contemplative. The longest I'm willing to contemplate on a ride is about 3 seconds, not enough time to take in any kind of complex information or complicated readout display.

    The touch screens in cars today are getting outrageous. A good case for self driving cars, so the driver can process all the information now literally at his finger tips. Zooming down the interstates, I'm not interested in anything but the road and my trajectory on it. The road signs tell me where to go.

    i've been in more screwups with GPS than back in the days of paper maps. At one point driving down to the FL panhandle from DC, we took the wrong fork around Atlanta, and ended up in Jacksonville, about 120 miles east of where we wanted to go. We shoulda looked at a map.
    My wife's e-bike was bought in 2015 for our trip to the Dolomites. I believe that it is still among the best e-bike technology on the market. Understand that she still had to train aggressively to improve her output/input to allow her to climb those 4 passes on one battery and that she was still exhausted at the finish. Clearly, It would be easy to make the same frame in carbon with a newer, high end groupo and get the weight down to 32 lbs. The bike originally weighed 39lbs but by changing the boat anchor parts with old parts I had laying around I was able to take 3 lbs off of it in a couple of hours before she ever took it for a ride. Haibike still makes this same bike except battery technology has allowed them to increase the amp hours by 25% in the identical body.

    I think the e-bike companies are missing the boat by using crap / heavy components thinking that weight doesn't matter. They maybe don't realize that a lot of older folks travel to where they ride and loading heavy bikes into or on cars is a pain.

    I'm not claiming that folks should give up their conventional bikes. My wife still rides hers about 90% of the time, however, she knows that she can not keep up on long steep mountain climbs but she loves the riding, the comradery, and the scenery of riding in the Cascades and Dolomites.

    Neither you nor I will replace our road bikes with e-bikes any time soon but I think a ride on a good e-bike would help you understand how they open doors to exploration and provide a new kind of fun that age is going to take away. I now know 4 folks who have converted to e-bikes out of necessity and regained the excitement that conventional bikes have not provided for some time. They are a pleasure to ride with, in part becasue they no longer hold up the ride and their enthusiasm has returned.

    Regarding your aversion to technology: you need to consider getting rid of that new fangled bikes of yours and getting a penny farthing to recapture the true joy of riding simplicity. Mountain passes will make a real man out of you.
    Last edited by SwiftSolo; 10-13-2018 at 07:16 AM.

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    I think a ride on a good e-bike would help you understand how they open doors to exploration and provide a new kind of fun that age is going to take away.
    I agree, and I don't understand why people get so worked up about e-bikes.

    On the other hand ... 20 mph in the Dolomites? On a 7 % climb, that would be around 600 W or more, just to battle gravitation. Add the wind resistance - should be considerable at 20 mph - and the rolling resistance of the tires, mechanical losses etc. and we're talking about 800 W, ballpark figure.

    I agree with people too, who feel this isn't cycling anymore. Of those 800 W maybe 250 W is produced by the rider (if s/he has a pretty good condition), the rest comes from the engine. Forget the semantics, that's a motorcycle.

    I'm all in favor of e-bikes with assistance up to 15 mph or so. They get people on a bike, which is a good thing in my book. And you can climb the Alps with them, I've seen quite a few on Ventoux and Alpe d!Huez. But assistance up to 30 mph? Have fun, but don't call it cycling.

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    Geez, my bike and many of the bikes in the TDF and Giro have two legal electric motors on them.

    I'm sure I speak for all of us when I express the pain we feel in knowing that you don't approve.
    You mean electric shifting? I should have been more specific, if it is propelled by a motor, itís not a bicycle. And I think that electronic derailleurs are better described as ďservosĒ than motors.

    Did you finish reading the post before you started feeling the pain of my (perceived) disapproval?


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  9. #184
    xxl
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    You need to keep up with the times! The motors are part of a system called di2 and they operate the front and rear deraillleurs. To be fair, they've only been around for maybe 7 or 8 years
    For a fellow who owns several e-bikes, you're mighty confused about them.

    Been keeping up with the times, and this thread, which was about e-bikes.

    E-bikes aren't the same as Di2 bikes. Some Di2 bikes are e-bikes as well (those that have rider-assisting motors of sufficient power to motor one's bike up hills that would otherwise be insurmountable for them, such as the ones your wife needs help on--it's the propulsion assistance, not the electronic shifting, that allows her to "make" those climbs), and some aren't equipped with the rider-assisting motors you've confused with electronic shifting systems such as Di2.

    Here are a couple of wiki entries that break it down for you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...hifting_system

    Hope that clears it up for you.
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  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    For a fellow who owns several e-bikes, you're mighty confused about them ... E-bikes aren't the same as Di2 bikes.
    He doesn't seem to be confused. His statements were pretty clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjdhawkhill View Post
    Either way, if itís got a motor of any sort, itís no longer a bicycle.
    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    Geez, my bike and many of the bikes in the TDF and Giro have two legal electric motors on them.
    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    The motors are part of a system called di2 and they operate the front and rear deraillleurs.

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    He doesn't seem to be confused. His statements were pretty clear.
    Jay was just making a joke in comparing performance enhancing motors to shifting motors because it is technically true. Sometimes itís hard in writing... Like poor attempts at sarcasm. Sometimes they just donít work like they are intended. Me? I thought it was kinda funny, it took me a few seconds to get it, I thought, Garmin? Sensors? Oh, no, an actual motor! Haha
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  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    My wife's e-bike was bought in 2015 for our trip to the Dolomites. I believe that it is still among the best e-bike technology on the market. Understand that she still had to train aggressively to improve her output/input to allow her to climb those 4 passes on one battery and that she was still exhausted at the finish. Clearly, It would be easy to make the same frame in carbon with a newer, high end groupo and get the weight down to 32 lbs. The bike originally weighed 39lbs but by changing the boat anchor parts with old parts I had laying around I was able to take 3 lbs off of it in a couple of hours before she ever took it for a ride. Haibike still makes this same bike except battery technology has allowed them to increase the amp hours by 25% in the identical body.

    I think the e-bike companies are missing the boat by using crap / heavy components thinking that weight doesn't matter. They maybe don't realize that a lot of older folks travel to where they ride and loading heavy bikes into or on cars is a pain.

    I'm not claiming that folks should give up their conventional bikes. My wife still rides hers about 90% of the time, however, she knows that she can not keep up on long steep mountain climbs but she loves the riding, the comradery, and the scenery of riding in the Cascades and Dolomites.

    Neither you nor I will replace our road bikes with e-bikes any time soon but I think a ride on a good e-bike would help you understand how they open doors to exploration and provide a new kind of fun that age is going to take away. I now know 4 folks who have converted to e-bikes out of necessity and regained the excitement that conventional bikes have not provided for some time. They are a pleasure to ride with, in part becasue they no longer hold up the ride and their enthusiasm has returned.

    Regarding your aversion to technology: you need to consider getting rid of that new fangled bikes of yours and getting a penny farthing to recapture the true joy of riding simplicity. Mountain passes will make a real man out of you.
    So your wife works with the assist and gets a great workout, anyway, like the bike is on steroids? No opportunity lost and time gained! That's fine, tapping into the latest electronic technology, battery schemes and such on an efficient two wheeled vehicle. That's what bikes are all about.

    Fact is, the motor more than likely encourages the rider to go harder, as you say. Getting the weight down below 40# would be awesome in terms of portability. A 25# bike with a motor would be very nice. You could run with the big boys on their svelte Pinarellos on your Pinarello, deftly electrified to suit your gentlemanly purposes.

    They will, then, affect the social order on the MUTs, so we manual riders will have to adjust. We can always get in their way.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 10-13-2018 at 10:44 PM.

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    He doesn't seem to be confused. His statements were pretty clear.
    Except that the whole thread has been about e-bikes' propulsion motors, and the potential they have for ruining a group ride by letting less-skilled riders who might inadvertently take a paceline down hang with a group they couldn't otherwise, and they'd be hanging with that group because of the propulsion motor of the e-bike, not the servos that control shifting.

    I think it's pretty clear from the context of the thread that the OP was referring to all propulsion-assistance motors (i.e., the "e" in "e-bike"). YMMV.
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  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    My wife's e-bike was bought in 2015 for our trip to the Dolomites. I believe that it is still among the best e-bike technology on the market. Understand that she still had to train aggressively to improve her output/input to allow her to climb those 4 passes on one battery and that she was still exhausted at the finish. Clearly, It would be easy to make the same frame in carbon with a newer, high end groupo and get the weight down to 32 lbs. The bike originally weighed 39lbs but by changing the boat anchor parts with old parts I had laying around I was able to take 3 lbs off of it in a couple of hours before she ever took it for a ride. Haibike still makes this same bike except battery technology has allowed them to increase the amp hours by 25% in the identical body.

    I think the e-bike companies are missing the boat by using crap / heavy components thinking that weight doesn't matter. They maybe don't realize that a lot of older folks travel to where they ride and loading heavy bikes into or on cars is a pain.

    I'm not claiming that folks should give up their conventional bikes. My wife still rides hers about 90% of the time, however, she knows that she can not keep up on long steep mountain climbs but she loves the riding, the comradery, and the scenery of riding in the Cascades and Dolomites.

    Neither you nor I will replace our road bikes with e-bikes any time soon but I think a ride on a good e-bike would help you understand how they open doors to exploration and provide a new kind of fun that age is going to take away. I now know 4 folks who have converted to e-bikes out of necessity and regained the excitement that conventional bikes have not provided for some time. They are a pleasure to ride with, in part becasue they no longer hold up the ride and their enthusiasm has returned.

    Regarding your aversion to technology: you need to consider getting rid of that new fangled bikes of yours and getting a penny farthing to recapture the true joy of riding simplicity. Mountain passes will make a real man out of you.
    SS,
    Do you know the mfr and model of your wife's ebike? Any link to the manufacturer's website?
    Thanks

  15. #190
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    Swift mentioned Haibikes. Here ya go:

    https://www.haibikeusa.com/xduro/adv...rbon-10-0.html

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