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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfrancois View Post
    you want to "train hard," but not that hard, right?

    htfu!
    Exactly! You should train on a 3 speed banana seat Huffy or your training is sh!t. Forget simply wanting to get to the top of climbs as fast as possible. We should drag a sailboat anchor behind us if we are serious. Beyond that 30 pound bikes are great for us. Elite tour riders often say, after killing a climbing stage, they just wished their bike was a few pounds heavier.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Exactly! You should train on a 3 speed banana seat Huffy or your training is sh!t. Forget simply wanting to get to the top of climbs as fast as possible. We should drag a sailboat anchor behind us if we are serious. Beyond that 30 pound bikes are great for us. Elite tour riders often say, after killing a climbing stage, they just wished their bike was a few pounds heavier.
    What are you training for?

    If you're training to race against others every benefit is needed, but if you're training or riding for PR's, or just pushing yourself, it doesn't matter, because your competition is riding the same bike.
    Too old to ride plastic

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Exactly! You should train on a 3 speed banana seat Huffy or your training is sh!t. Forget simply wanting to get to the top of climbs as fast as possible. We should drag a sailboat anchor behind us if we are serious. Beyond that 30 pound bikes are great for us. Elite tour riders often say, after killing a climbing stage, they just wished their bike was a few pounds heavier.
    love these leaps in uh ... "logic."

    the bikes they rode in the 1984 tdf are like 3-speed huffys and dragging a boat anchor. just like that. those guys really were super human.
    Yossarian: don't worry. nothing's going to happen to you that won't happen to the rest of us.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfrancois View Post
    love these leaps in uh ... "logic."

    the bikes they rode in the 1984 tdf are like 3-speed huffys and dragging a boat anchor. just like that. those guys really were super human.
    Well, these bikes in '84 weighed 21# with tubulars, so the handicap is only a few pounds! Quite amazing, isn't it, those men of steel actually made it up the mountains on those things with 42-24 lowest gears, "for the mountains?"

    When I "raced," just riding the 24# commuter with 28mm tires made the legs stronger on the 21# racing bike and 25mm tires. The "training effect" provided a magical increase in leg strength, about like EPO, I imagined. Notice how racers often throw off water bottles just before a difficult climb?

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfrancois View Post
    you want to "train hard," but not that hard, right?

    htfu!
    There's something about a lighter bike that makes me want to train harder than a heavy bike.

    My commuter bike is super heavy (30+lbs), and I tend not to exert myself much on it - and not just because I'm commuting. I've done the occasional longer ride non-commute, and it just doesn't reward effort like my 17lb road bike does. YMMV.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by nealric View Post
    My commuter bike is super heavy (30+lbs), and I tend not to exert myself much on it.
    yeah, i wouldn't want to ride that one either.
    Yossarian: don't worry. nothing's going to happen to you that won't happen to the rest of us.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by nealric View Post
    There's something about a lighter bike that makes me want to train harder than a heavy bike.
    Same here. My new mtn bike is a lightweight climbing machine compared to my old one and I find myself attacking hills a lot more often now. Like you said, the lighter bike rewards those efforts more so I'm more inclined to take them on.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfrancois View Post
    love these leaps in uh ... "logic."

    the bikes they rode in the 1984 tdf are like 3-speed huffys and dragging a boat anchor. just like that. those guys really were super human.

    Sure, itís an exaggerated reply but the principle is exactly the same. Use a POS boat anchor heavy bike to improve your training with legit racing bikes that weigh 10lbs less.. your reply begged that response. ďRide a heavy bike to train harder.Ē Itís a ridiculous preposition in some ways. Not much more ridiculous than dragging the boat anchor. Again, elite world tour climbers often complain about the bikes being too light? Ever? Once ever? One time, even close to once ever?
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Use a POS boat anchor heavy bike.
    why would you do that? i don't.

    Ride a heavy bike to train harder.
    i wouldn't do that either. i'd ride the perfectly tuned bike i felt like riding. They just happen to be steel, like the ones ridden in the tdf for some thirty years.

    of course, mine happen to have a bit lower gearing.
    Yossarian: don't worry. nothing's going to happen to you that won't happen to the rest of us.

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Sure, itís an exaggerated reply but the principle is exactly the same. Use a POS boat anchor heavy bike to improve your training with legit racing bikes that weigh 10lbs less.. your reply begged that response. ďRide a heavy bike to train harder.Ē Itís a ridiculous preposition in some ways. Not much more ridiculous than dragging the boat anchor. Again, elite world tour climbers often complain about the bikes being too light? Ever? Once ever? One time, even close to once ever?
    Have you ever ridden a high end steel bike with down tube shifters, with any kind of shifters? Reading your posts on the subject I would hazard a guess that you haven't, and I'm going to suggest that you do. There's a lot more to a bicycle than being the lightest one and you owe it to yourself to see what is on offer. You might be surprised.
    Too old to ride plastic

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    There's a lot more to a bicycle than being the lightest one and you owe it to yourself to see what is on offer. You might be surprised.
    So true.

    I've ridden lighter bikes that don't respond all that well on climbs, canceling out their weight advantage. The two Columbus SL/SLX/SP bikes I ride climb like bandits, despite weighing 22 and 24 pounds. Plenty light enough for a nice responsive ride.

    Sure, a +30# mountain bike with heavy tires and shock absorber isn't going to feel sprightly on the climbs, but up to the low 20#s, the legs overcome the slight weight handicap, compensated for with a responsive frame and strong, stiff wheels.

    Gravel bikes are coming in at 24-26# and riders are touting them as "do everything" bikes, entirely capable of keeping up on a club ride--on 25-28mm tires. They'd only be a slight handicap in an all-out race, and even then, not significant if you keep your pulls short.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    So true.

    I've ridden lighter bikes that don't respond all that well on climbs, canceling out their weight advantage. The two Columbus SL/SLX/SP bikes I ride climb like bandits, despite weighing 22 and 24 pounds. Plenty light enough for a nice responsive ride.
    This.

    When I hear folks deriding steel bikes as heavy and flexy I'm reminded of the early days of crabon bikes being derided for their dead ride.

    Stiffness for the sake of stiffness serves no good purpose. Bikes used to be applauded for their "lively" ride, but that's not something that is much spoken for much any more, and that's too bad. After a good hard ride my legs feel fresher if I've been riding a lively frame than they do after riding a stiff frame.

    There's a difference between riding a high end steel bike and something like a Surly. Not to deride the Surly, but it's been built to be indestructible not to have the lively responsive ride of something like an old steel DeRosa or Cinelli.
    Too old to ride plastic

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    This.

    When I hear folks deriding steel bikes as heavy and flexy I'm reminded of the early days of crabon bikes being derided for their dead ride.

    Stiffness for the sake of stiffness serves no good purpose. Bikes used to be applauded for their "lively" ride, but that's not something that is much spoken for much any more, and that's too bad. After a good hard ride my legs feel fresher if I've been riding a lively frame than they do after riding a stiff frame.

    There's a difference between riding a high end steel bike and something like a Surly. Not to deride the Surly, but it's been built to be indestructible not to have the lively responsive ride of something like an old steel DeRosa or Cinelli.
    Steel is real.

    I'm a giant fan of Columbus and Tange double and triple butted cromoly frames.

    My current daily ride is a 1997 LeMonde Columbus steel bike. Light, stiff (not too stiff), responsive on flats, standing climbs, and fast descents.

    Might I like another frame material better? Carbon, titanium, aluminum? I ride with guys on all those frames. They never express their love for their frames the way I do.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    This.

    When I hear folks deriding steel bikes as heavy and flexy I'm reminded of the early days of crabon bikes being derided for their dead ride.

    Stiffness for the sake of stiffness serves no good purpose. Bikes used to be applauded for their "lively" ride, but that's not something that is much spoken for much any more, and that's too bad. After a good hard ride my legs feel fresher if I've been riding a lively frame than they do after riding a stiff frame.

    There's a difference between riding a high end steel bike and something like a Surly. Not to deride the Surly, but it's been built to be indestructible not to have the lively responsive ride of something like an old steel DeRosa or Cinelli.
    The feedback loop as the miles add up becomes exquisite, feelings heightened by fatigue. Always feel slightly beat up on the long point lugged SLX commuter after a few hour ride. The internal rifling on the seat tube and down tube, the stout SP chain stays, the sloping fork crown, and long point lugs, makes the ride ever so slightly harsher as the miles add up. Load up the frame with panniers, and it rides like a '56 Cadillac, still responsive, but smooth as silk.

    The short point lugged SL DeRosa, curiously with an SLX seat tube, but with SL all around, pinched chain stays, flat fork crown which absorbs shocks better than an elastomer shock absorber because it doesn't blunt road feel, leaves the legs, arms, hands, just fresh enough at mile 90, to go hard at the end. In moments of anguish the bike always seems to call, "Come on, paisano! Yer gonna make it!" The 75 degree head tube gives it very sensitive steering, but above 30 mph on the descents, it handles like a motorcycle.

    The ride quality is all in the frame. Hear tell high end carbon bikes approach the feel of steel, and many pretenders don't. Back when steel was king, many cheaper steel bikes were either too flippy or too stiff, same as today's carbon and aluminum, only heavier. It takes skill to get it just right. When builder gets it right, the slight weight handicap is irrelevant.

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