• 05-09-2015
    SystemShock
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    This just illustrates the fact that there is very little difference these days wrt reliability between various manufacturers.

    Stats don't seem to bear that out. The problem with anecdotes is that they're, well.. anecdotal, which is to say individual.

    To see the real patterns in reliability, you need thousand or millions of experiences. And, that's pretty much what Consumer Reports does... they do an annual auto reliability survey, and they get somewhere between 1 million and 2 million responses each time.

    In other words, very statistically significant, not, "Well, my Cousin Joe says...". :)

    Below is a graph that summarizes the results of their 2011 survey (couldn't find anything more recent, least not as a graph). It shows # of problems vs time for most of the major auto makes.

    Its data also shows a couple of significant patterns... one is, almost any manufacturers' cars are reliable through the first couple of years. The REAL differentiator is how they hold up over the long haul/several years.

    Secondly, it shows that US makes still have a-ways to go. Chrysler and GM were among the worst in terms of long-term reliability, and Ford was only mid-pack.

    The best (Subaru, Honda, Toyota) were all foreign makes, though to be fair, all 3 of those companies do operate plants in the US. So the issue would not seem to be US auto workers, who are quite capable of turning out vehicles that are world-class in reliability, 'parently.



    Attachment 305757

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  • 05-09-2015
    SystemShock
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by charlox5 View Post
    Honda's auto trannies in the early oughts were terrible. But they eventually sorted them out.

    If anything they require some extra TLC and some aggressive ATF intervals, just for safety, but they're ok now.

    Stats do seem to back that up. The Accord, for instance, hit a rough patch in the late '90s/early '00s, then got back on track.

    You can see the effects below (click for bigger pic), or in the Consumer Reports survey in the post above, where if you count back from 2011, you can see how Honda's reliability slipped a bit for models sold in the early 'oughts.

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  • 05-10-2015
    Pirx
    I think I remember that one of the issues with those statistics is that they count customer complaints, and it turns out that customer complaints are not necessarily objective, and are not uniform across brands. If we take the luxury brands as an example (say, BMW, or Mercedes-Benz), I think I remember seeing an article somewhere that said that the people owning these kinds of cars simply have far higher expectations. For example, for the Mercedes-Benz, at some point people were complaining about their shiny wheels getting all mucked up by "excessive brake dust" (front wheels, mostly), when there really was no functional or reliability issue at all. Other problems stem from the higher amount of technology that's often included in expensive cars some of which does not exist in cheaper ones. With the technology, one would then have to try and distinguish between actual failures, and cases where customers were simply not able to operate the technology correctly.

    Bottom line, I'm not sure if it's objectively true that Mercedes-Benz makes cars that are less reliable than Hondas, say.
  • 05-10-2015
    Andy69
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    Stats don't seem to bear that out. The problem with anecdotes is that they're, well.. anecdotal, which is to say individual.

    To see the real patterns in reliability, you need thousand or millions of experiences. And, that's pretty much what Consumer Reports does... they do an annual auto reliability survey, and they get somewhere between 1 million and 2 million responses each time.

    In other words, very statistically significant, not, "Well, my Cousin Joe says...". :)

    Below is a graph that summarizes the results of their 2011 survey (couldn't find anything more recent, least not as a graph). It shows # of problems vs time for most of the major auto makes.

    Its data also shows a couple of significant patterns... one is, almost any manufacturers' cars are reliable through the first couple of years. The REAL differentiator is how they hold up over the long haul/several years.

    Secondly, it shows that US makes still have a-ways to go. Chrysler and GM were among the worst in terms of long-term reliability, and Ford was only mid-pack.

    The best (Subaru, Honda, Toyota) were all foreign makes, though to be fair, all 3 of those companies do operate plants in the US. So the issue would not seem to be US auto workers, who are quite capable of turning out vehicles that are world-class in reliability, 'parently.



    Attachment 305757

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    So, after 10 years, the worse car make has an average of 1.5 problems per car per year, and the best, a little over .5 problems per car, with the rest somewhere in between.

    That's not really a big difference.

    Plus, that chart has a few glaring problems.

    First, data provided by owners, while wide reaching, has issues, not the least of which is owner bias.

    Second, it lumps all cars from each make together, which hides individual vehicles which may be either exceptionally reliable or exceptionally unreliable. It also hides individual drivetrain combinations.

    Third, their sample base consists only of subscribers.

    Here are a couple of alternative takes on the matter:

    https://www.yahoo.com/autos/bp/a-car...213610506.html

    His list of the ten best cars is surprising:
    https://www.yahoo.com/autos/bp/the-t...192211682.html

    and another:

    Long-Term Quality Index
  • 05-10-2015
    Notvintage
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    Try driving a S2000 and a Z4 back-to-back, and you'll notice immediately that the Z4's handling, power, ergonomics, drift-a-bility, and weight are all inferior to the S2000.

    Clueless babble. What kind of Z4? IS, Coupe? Roadster. 3.0? 2.5? M? An S2000 is affordable to more people, but that's pretty much it. The level of refinement in a BMW is much higher than an S2000 or a rental car like a Ford Rustang.
  • 05-10-2015
    myhui
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    The level of refinement in a BMW is much higher than an S2000 or a rental car like a Ford Rustang.

    The problem is that once you drive it for a few days, you notice all the bad ergonomics, bad GUI on the dash, lack of VTEC, the heavy car, and worst: too many 40's women with waistlines and mortgages drive it.

    Q.E.D.
  • 05-10-2015
    Eretz
    Back a decade ago, you had Audi and Volkswagen reporting many issues, but Audi offered a maintenance free program allowing owners to do recalls/repairs under normal maintenance intervals [without] realising there were recalls. Then in late 2000's VW did the same, offering free maintenance and oil change service till 30K which allowed techs to up-date, repair and comply with reported issues without recalls. I can say that Audi and VW have had some very serious recalls, some anyone would find bothersome [windows dropping into the doors from plastic retainer window clips becoming a weak point]. You have to determine mechanical - real world issues over rain on the shoulders. None-the-less, I wouldn't want to own a new model year VW no matter what.....

    Oh, my bad.
  • 05-10-2015
    myhui
    Russians do look up to German engineering as the best in the world.
  • 05-10-2015
    Doug B
    German engineering.....meh. There is a sign hanging in the Geurring Tool office here in the a United States that says something like..... "Geurring....German engineering made better by Americans". There is a lot of truth behind those words.
  • 05-10-2015
    Eretz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Doug B View Post
    German engineering.....meh. There is a sign hanging in the Geurring Tool office here in the a United States that says something like..... "Geurring....German engineering made better by Americans". There is a lot of truth behind those words.

    The term: Over Engineered [comes to mind with any Germany vehicle]

    My main ride in a Cannondale Super Six. More miles on it than anything in the garage last season and achieved 14,940 miles - 34,000 and still counting since 2009.
  • 05-11-2015
    ohvrolla
    Andy69 you make a good point about Consumer Reports lumping all cars from a manufacture together. Take Ford's older Taurus and Crown Victoria for example. The engine offerings in the Taurus was actually pretty decent, but the transmissions are hot garbage and will fail. The Crown Vic is on another level as far as drive train reliability. There are some intake manifold issues with the 4.6L, but this is something I know going in and would change out if I purchased one used.

    Your list of top ten had a couple of the GM 3800 powered cars on it. Great engine, as in good for 300k engine. Motor also had some upper intake manifold issues when they started using plastic manifolds. Being mechanically inclined I'd have no trouble buying a used car with the 3800 and swapping the manifold before driving. It's a $125 repair and not much time spent. FWIW Yahoo neglected to mention that the 4T65 transmissions mated to the 3800 prior to 2004 were prone to losing overdrive from a stripped 4th gear clutch shaft.

    I'm curious if anyone owns or knows someone who owns a four cylinder Camry. The 2.4L has grown a reputation for stripping out the firewall side cylinder head bolt holes in the block. Speaking of Toyota, I don't know how the Corolla didn't make the top ten list. Yeah it's a small no frills econobox, but the 1.8L is a insert expletive good engine. Oil burning issues in a few years, but that ending around 2002ish I think. Otherwise an incredibly reliable drivetrain.
  • 05-11-2015
    Andy69
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ohvrolla View Post
    Andy69 you make a good point about Consumer Reports lumping all cars from a manufacture together. Take Ford's older Taurus and Crown Victoria for example. The engine offerings in the Taurus was actually pretty decent, but the transmissions are hot garbage and will fail. The Crown Vic is on another level as far as drive train reliability. There are some intake manifold issues with the 4.6L, but this is something I know going in and would change out if I purchased one used.

    Your list of top ten had a couple of the GM 3800 powered cars on it. Great engine, as in good for 300k engine. Motor also had some upper intake manifold issues when they started using plastic manifolds. Being mechanically inclined I'd have no trouble buying a used car with the 3800 and swapping the manifold before driving. It's a $125 repair and not much time spent. FWIW Yahoo neglected to mention that the 4T65 transmissions mated to the 3800 prior to 2004 were prone to losing overdrive from a stripped 4th gear clutch shaft.

    I'm curious if anyone owns or knows someone who owns a four cylinder Camry. The 2.4L has grown a reputation for stripping out the firewall side cylinder head bolt holes in the block. Speaking of Toyota, I don't know how the Corolla didn't make the top ten list. Yeah it's a small no frills econobox, but the 1.8L is a insert expletive good engine. Oil burning issues in a few years, but that ending around 2002ish I think. Otherwise an incredibly reliable drivetrain.

    The Geo/Chevy version of the Corolla is. I think that one was usually recommended over the Corolla because it was cheaper, yet essentially the same car.
  • 05-11-2015
    myhui
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Doug B View Post
    German engineering.....meh.

    This one, I like: http://m.caranddriver.com/news/2015-...-and-info-news

    The current issue has a glowing review of that model. It costs 10% more than the 2016 BMW 7 series.

    I am tempted to get it as the last example of a naturally aspirated car with a manual transmission and mid-mounted engine.

    The last time that became available to the consumer was the 2005 Acura NSX.
  • 05-11-2015
    froze
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Eretz View Post
    The term: Over Engineered [comes to mind with any Germany vehicle]

    All German cars are over engineered? Not true, their reliability has dropped over the years to being similar to American cars...maybe that's why they dropped in quality because they're American made, and not made better. If you want quality German made car make sure it's made in Germany and not here!

    Read more about it here: Why German Made Is Better Than (North) American Made

    More here: Are German Cars Reliable? The Myth of "German Engineering" AutoGuide.com News

    And in Consumer Reports last five annual reports, the last time these German brands have been above average in reliability was back in 2007. Since then, they've all slumped below the average in the industry. And you can read about what JD Powers says as well in that last (website) article I posted above.

    I'n not saying I would never buy a German made car, because due to electronics ALL car manufactures are having reliability issues. Lexus currently as a whole has less problems per 100 cars than any other manufacture and they're not German. They're are some cars that are rated amount the highest that I would never own like the Scion xB because it's so freaking ugly, or the Honda Civic and VW Passat that sounds like you're driving in a tin can, and the others that made the list of the top 10 that are just plain boring to look at.
  • 05-11-2015
    ohvrolla
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    The Geo/Chevy version of the Corolla is. I think that one was usually recommended over the Corolla because it was cheaper, yet essentially the same car.

    I somehow glanced right over the Prizm. I do notice they put the Vibe, which is a sister car of the Matrix with both running off the Corolla platform. My dad has had a Vibe for five or six years, and best of my knowledge only had the AC compressor replaced. Around 200k on the odometer.
  • 05-11-2015
    myhui
  • 05-11-2015
    froze
    Big deal, the Dodge Charger and Challenger with the Hellcat engine will make that Porsche appear to be choking on something...the smoke of the tires from either of those cars.

    Shall we take a glimpse of the performance stats? Sure why not!

    Porsche GT4 0-60 4.2 seconds; Dodge Charger (used Charger stats, Challenger is a tad faster!) 3.6 seconds
    Porsche 1/4 mile 12.6; Dodge 11.7
    Porsche top speed 184; Dodge 199
    Porsche lap times were slower than the Dodge.
    Porsche price: starts at $84,000; Dodge $48,000
    And repair costs? Geez don't even go there, the Porsche would be a lot more expensive to repair than an American car.

    Personal opinion here, the Porsche looks hideous, for that kind of money, and actually a bit less if I was buying a exotic looking sports car, I would rather be seen in a Lotus Elise or an Alfa Romeo 4c, but the Lotus is a lot more practical with cheaper repair costs.
  • 05-11-2015
    penn_rider
    What lap times? I could not find. The Dodge is a heck of a deal, but I would not consider it a success just because the numbers are better than the Cayman - which would not be my first choice from Porsche.
  • 05-11-2015
    myhui
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by froze View Post
    Big deal, the Dodge Charger and Challenger with the Hellcat engine will make that Porsche appear to be choking on something...the smoke of the tires from either of those cars.

    Quite true.

    For my personal taste, this is still my favorite: 933 whp out of a 2.2L turbocharged Honda F22 motor.

    Race Engine Technology Issue 085

    "Dossier: INLINE PRO 2.2 LITRE HONDA I4 TURBO - Ian Bamsey finds out how this production-based engine is being transformed into an NHRA record-setter"

    https://youtu.be/qT59Y0JoF0I


    InlinePRO
    7958-B Cameron Brown Ct.
    Springfield, VA 22153
    Phone: 703-455-5805
    FAX: 703-455-5802
    E-Mail:
    [email protected]


    I think this is the secret sauce: having individual exhaust pipes from each cylinder to the turbo inlet, and merging them just before the exhaust gas hits the turbo.

    https://www.inlinepro.com/s1/images/don18.jpg
  • 05-11-2015
    myhui
    Ladies and gentlemen, THIS is the sound of VTEC:

    https://youtu.be/CdrZVEOfmGk
  • 05-12-2015
    Notvintage
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by froze View Post
    Shall we take a glimpse of the performance stats?

    I have to crack up when kids get online and brag about something as stupid as 0-60 times. lol. Any Dodge is a sled compared to the Porsche models you mention. Additionally, no one, and I mean no one, cross shops a POS Dodge with a Porsche. One is Budweiser (Dodge) and the other is Chimay. . Orval. . Some other great Belgian beer. BTW, hasn't Dodge circled the bowl a few times, and was saved with taxpayer money? I know GM did. Got to keep those drunken, knuckle dragging union workers in their slack jobs making crappy cars for the masses. LOL.
  • 05-12-2015
    Andy69
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    I have to crack up when kids get online and brag about something as stupid as 0-60 times. lol. Any Dodge is a sled compared to the Porsche models you mention. Additionally, no one, and I mean no one, cross shops a POS Dodge with a Porsche. One is Budweiser (Dodge) and the other is Chimay. . Orval. . Some other great Belgian beer. BTW, hasn't Dodge circled the bowl a few times, and was saved with taxpayer money? I know GM did. Got to keep those drunken, knuckle dragging union workers in their slack jobs making crappy cars for the masses. LOL.

    I wouldn't necessarily pick a Dodge, but the Hellcat is pretty much what it's name implies.

    I'd be more interested in a Z/28 or a Z06, and if you're interested in a Porsche Cayman, you may also be looking at the Corvette. I wouldn't compare the weak sauce Cayman to even the Stingray.

    I always love how German car fanbois love to hate the Corvette. Sure, the 918 Spyder is quicker, but you can buy TEN Z06 Corvettes for the cost of one of those.

    I'd say, those drunken knuckle dragging union workers build a pretty darn good 911 destroyer.
  • 05-12-2015
    myhui
    If the next Corvette is mid engine, then it'll truly rule the time sheets in both road and drag races.
  • 05-12-2015
    froze
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    Quite true.

    For my personal taste, this is still my favorite: 933 whp out of a 2.2L turbocharged Honda F22 motor.

    Race Engine Technology Issue 085

    "Dossier: INLINE PRO 2.2 LITRE HONDA I4 TURBO - Ian Bamsey finds out how this production-based engine is being transformed into an NHRA record-setter"

    https://youtu.be/qT59Y0JoF0I


    InlinePRO
    7958-B Cameron Brown Ct.
    Springfield, VA 22153
    Phone: 703-455-5805
    FAX: 703-455-5802
    E-Mail:
    [email protected]


    I think this is the secret sauce: having individual exhaust pipes from each cylinder to the turbo inlet, and merging them just before the exhaust gas hits the turbo.

    https://www.inlinepro.com/s1/images/don18.jpg

    Let's keep it to stock factory equipped cars, not some racing BS, I guess if someone wanted to they could add a supercharger to the Hellcat engine too, but that wouldn't be stock, but it would make a more fun car...assuming the nut behind the wheel can handle that kind of horsepower, most can't.
  • 05-12-2015
    Andy69
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by froze View Post
    Let's keep it to stock factory equipped cars, not some racing BS, I guess if someone wanted to they could add a supercharger to the Hellcat engine too, but that wouldn't be stock, but it would make a more fun car...assuming the nut behind the wheel can handle that kind of horsepower, most can't.

    I've found the loose nut behind the wheel to be my biggest problem when it comes to racing :)